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Old 2013-03-08, 22:39   Link #10841
Hisoka??
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Thought Gray insisted on doing 2-handed ice make because of balance? Why was his attack now only 1 handed?
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Old 2013-03-08, 22:49   Link #10842
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Look i'd like to say this was good but it wasn't Cheria got distracted hence why Juvia and Gray won. Erza comes up with a new armor hence her win. And honestly it made me puke when sting has his chance and just plain quits not impressive at all
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Old 2013-03-08, 23:08   Link #10843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechR View Post
How did she land that last hit on Kagura when even her speed armor couldn't do it? (Assuming there wasn't something else weird going on in the latter case, like some sort of damage-transfer spell.)

At least with Ikaruga, she didn't have the speed armor to use yet (presumably).
Partly Kagura's emotions getting the best of her, partly Erza learning Kagura's attack pattern, partly Erza strengthening her resolve, and partly shonen speed power up. Take your pick. I tend to presume a mix of all four.
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Old 2013-03-08, 23:26   Link #10844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Thought Gray insisted on doing 2-handed ice make because of balance? Why was his attack now only 1 handed?
Because he has to hold Juvia's hand
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Old 2013-03-08, 23:29   Link #10845
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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Thought Gray insisted on doing 2-handed ice make because of balance? Why was his attack now only 1 handed?
Juvia's makes two
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Old 2013-03-09, 01:18   Link #10846
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Partly Kagura's emotions getting the best of her, partly Erza learning Kagura's attack pattern, partly Erza strengthening her resolve, and partly shonen speed power up. Take your pick. I tend to presume a mix of all four.
Yeah, it should be noted that Erza and Kagura were evenly matched before Minerva showed up. They were evenly matched when fighting Minerva, with Erza arguably having an edge (blocked Kagura's sword in very little time when Minerva swapped herself and Erza while Kagura was swinging, kicked Kagura through a low wall off a bridge, and Kagura never really got a hit in on Erza). Then once Minerva revealed she'd captured Millianna, Kagura got pissed at Erza for acting like Millianna was her friend when she was sheltering Jellal (angry for Millianna's sake) and gained the upper hand. Then when Erza said that Simon died because of her, Kagura became enraged with the desire for vengeance (angry for her own sake and the sake of vengeance) and Erza was able to gain the upper hand.

This observation isn't the full story, but it's likely relevant. Particularly as people like to forget everything that happened before Minerva walked off with Millianna and pretend that Kagura was curbstomping Erza the moment they first met in battle.
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Old 2013-03-09, 03:54   Link #10847
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
Yeah, it should be noted that Erza and Kagura were evenly matched before Minerva showed up. They were evenly matched when fighting Minerva, with Erza arguably having an edge (blocked Kagura's sword in very little time when Minerva swapped herself and Erza while Kagura was swinging, kicked Kagura through a low wall off a bridge, and Kagura never really got a hit in on Erza). Then once Minerva revealed she'd captured Millianna, Kagura got pissed at Erza for acting like Millianna was her friend when she was sheltering Jellal (angry for Millianna's sake) and gained the upper hand. Then when Erza said that Simon died because of her, Kagura became enraged with the desire for vengeance (angry for her own sake and the sake of vengeance) and Erza was able to gain the upper hand.

This observation isn't the full story, but it's likely relevant. Particularly as people like to forget everything that happened before Minerva walked off with Millianna and pretend that Kagura was curbstomping Erza the moment they first met in battle.
Initially Kagura was just feeling Erza out. Then during the three-way, she had to split attention and avoid overcommitting to attacks, especially with the other two dualwielding. (She did get a hit in when Erza tried jumping down on her after the kick; you can see the cut trail across Erza's torso as Erza lands on her head.) I actually thought Erza came out subtly worst in the threesome, since she took the first hit from Minerva when their attentions were all evenly divided, and then took that counterhit from Kagura despite being in a better position. By comparison, the other two only got hit while busy hitting someone else. (Or in Minerva's case, about to deal with Erza's attempted ambush when Kagura rammed her side.)

Edit: Aaand I just realized we won't be seeing this threesome animated for a while Hopefully they'll have the budget to do it justice if/when the show returns!

Last edited by MechR; 2013-03-09 at 04:06.
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Old 2013-03-09, 04:50   Link #10848
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If I can be honest I'm new to this forum and I have neither the time nor sobriety to read through 500 some odd pages to search this out but I''m just wondering if people are on the same page as me with the concept of.
Spoiler for whole of series:
maybe that's just me reflecting on the brevity of rave master and Im sure it''s been brought up before, I'm just wondering on thoughts. realistically I just want to say that though predictable, I really like it
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Old 2013-03-09, 07:54   Link #10849
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The thing is that even Lucy had tiny story on how she got some of the keys. She won them or she bought them. She is a collector just like Erza.

Erza simply takes them all out of thin air.
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Old 2013-03-09, 08:04   Link #10850
felix
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It's fine though, the whole "story rocket science" behind something is really a bonus not a necessity, "there is no story" is a story in and of itself, with it's own charm (that I've grown more fond of personally).

The important aspect is not how she has them, that can easily be explained by anything, but how they are presented, which is conversely easily screwed up by everything. One being a singular object consumed by the story, the other a gear that moves the story forward. You may easily replace what you feed into it, but it's a lot harder to change how it tics and tacs.
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Old 2013-03-09, 09:55   Link #10851
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You don't watch Gurren Lagann and expect Gone with the Wind. You don't go, "Hey, they just said doing that is impossible, so why were they able to do it? It breaks the storytelling!" THat's just how Gurren Lagann is, and expecting anything else out of it, will just make you sound a bit silly to everyone else. I like Fairy Tail, because it is more than shonen, and so I understand that it is easy to forget that it is shonen at its base.

Erza pulling out new armors, is no different than Natsu pulling out new techniques (or eating new things). Or Grey pulling out new techniques. Natsu pulled an ultimate dragon slayer art (Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade) out of his ass to defeat Laxus, and no one went "where did he get something that allowed him to take down Laxus?" I wasn't here in the forum when Natsu ate Etherion to defeat Jellal, but was there complaining about that? Where did he suddenly get the ability to eat anything? Where did he get the ability to get and retain lightning? There was no explanation, it just showed up.

Erza's armors are her "spells" in much the same way as everyone else's spells. Being shonen, that means they are going to pull out new ones during a fight. Erza has already stated to have over a hundred armors... do you really want to devote manga time to finding out how she got each one? Personally, I feel that would drag the whole manga down. Most people just don't care and would rather focus on the story. Would it be nice? Sure, maybe in a side story, but that would take up Mashima's time that I would prefer he use to write the story itself.

Characters activating new abilities in the middle of a fight (usually through rage and/or desire to protect one's friends) is a distinctly shonen trait. It is going to happen again and again. Complaining about it, is like complaining why the characters from Gurren Lagann are able to do things that are supposed to be impossible. You're not quite getting what you are reading. It's fine to have a problem with it, but everyone else is gonna look at you funny.

And lastly... the manga isn't done yet. Mashima may very well have Erza explain where she got it. If you are a person that this bothers, can you at least say, "Okay, I'll put my criticism aside for now, and at least wait to see if it is addressed"? There are times when a new technique or something is explained afterward in shonen. Not always, but sometimes.
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Old 2013-03-09, 10:11   Link #10852
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It's what I'm waiting on, Kaijo - an explanation from the man himself.

One normally doesn't have an Infinity +1 artifact already in their possession without something about how it got there in the first place. Of course, knowing Erza, she liked how it looked an just kept it without realizing what it was at first. Then when she tried it on... *POOF* it drained her power dry, leaving her feeling depressed for a few days, holed up inside her room, eating cake. She only realized just what it was later on and kept it with an oath to one day be able to become someone who could wear the legendary armor.

...and that actually sounds believable. I hope it's not like that...
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Old 2013-03-09, 10:22   Link #10853
felix
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I'm starting to think Kaijo is an extreme case of a back-seat-viewing. As in he's not "observing", but more like from his reference frame he is physically behind the character when he's reading it, hence this attachment to the characters toys and powers in the story (since they are essentially "his" toys in that context) and lack regard for the ramifications of the characters actions in the story. Something like playing a RPG game with out actually pushing buttons; you don't care for the character in a RPG too much since he is essentially yourself most of the time. Tacking a back seat is really common in video games, we see them in game playthough video comments every day.

Am I guessing right Kaijo? :P

Would explain the berlin wall in the discussion.
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Old 2013-03-09, 10:28   Link #10854
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You want a backstory to it? Here we go!

On one of her dangerous S-class quests to clean out a horde of monsters, she found it in an ancient ruin(or got it as a reward, like Lucy with Saggitarius's key). Tried it on, immediately drained her. But since she is a collector, she kept it in her closet while learning about it's abilities, knowing that one day she would find a use for it.

There; do we want Mashima to devote manga time to tell us this short bit? Would this satisfy everyone?

I should add that, as a person with a scientific mindset, I know that every particle has an anti-particle. One of my other favorite series is Nanoha, and they recently introduced anti-magic as a property, so to me, it makes sense that if there is magic, there is an opposite and equal force that is essentially anti-magic.

Edit: felix, you might consider, if you are tossing the term "berlin wall" at me, that it would apply to you, too. I'd suggest, if you have read the forum rules, that you try not call people names. Especially ones that would apply to you, too.

And to answer your question, shonen is almost like an RPG. You have established rules for the genre, that every other series tends to follow. Some have their own unique spins, but you have characters in a story that travel about, gain experience, level up, etc. What you don't have, are people who play an RPG and go, "Wait, why is 'experience' shown as points? That doesn't make sense! Why are characters 'leveling up'? They should be getting stronger very gradually, not have a sudden leap." And people would look at them funny and go, "Dude, it's just an RPG. That's how it works."

So, felix, dude, it is just a shonen story. That's just how it works. Then again, we're apparently dealing with a Berlin Wall here...

Another edit: I do some akido. To everyone who does a form of martial arts or some other fighting style, we realize that you do NOT suddenly just get a new move in a fight. You heavily train your moves for weeks before a fight, either taught by someone, or gradually developing your own move. So, logically speaking, they need to explain where all these new moves come from, because you don't just suddenly pop out with a new one without any prior training. If we are going to follow the logic of Erza's armor here, let's apply it equally. And with this logic, I have totally deconstructed Fairy Tail's magic system and shown it doesn't make sense, and thus the foundation upon which the story rests is faulty. Why? Because they never explain where these new spells and techniques come from, and never show the characters finding or developing them.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2013-03-09 at 10:45.
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Old 2013-03-09, 11:17   Link #10855
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Even if shounen have certain rules to follow there is no restrictions to expand them. May be my expectations are a little too high for a shounen, but i can`t see any constraints for them to be fullfilled. The genre itself wouldn`t be hurt...
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Old 2013-03-09, 11:41   Link #10856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classic View Post
Even if shounen have certain rules to follow there is no restrictions to expand them. May be my expectations are a little too high for a shounen, but i can`t see any constraints for them to be fullfilled. The genre itself wouldn`t be hurt...
You are partially correct, and this is something I've mentioned before.

Shonen in general, and One Piece in particular, is hugely popular for a reason. As was DBZ. In order to be that popular, you have to do things that the biggest group of people like, who will buy your manga. Shonen has evolved to the point where it is at, because that is what sells the most. Publishers tend to go with what sells the most, and thus the industry (like most) is resistant to change. They want to continue making money, so One Piece will continue to be strictly shonen and others will try to imitate that and DBZ, etc.

Fairy Tail does evolve the genre and do quite a few things differently. It isn't as popular, though. So, ironically, the "different" things that make me (and probably you, too) like Fairy Tail because they aren't as shonen as others, are things that are keeping it from being super popular. To do more changes which would slowly strip it of it's shonen characteristics, would most likely make it less popular... and thus end.

It was a question I posed before: "Would you prefer it drop the majority of shonen characteristics, and thus end shortly thereafter when it's popularity plummets? Or would you settle for what we have, which is something that is a bit off of shonen, but has enough popularity to sustain it?"

For me, I prefer the latter. I am still entertained enough by the series, that any minor nitpicks (like Erza's armor) I can overlook. That is the cost I choose to accept, in order to see the story continue. And frankly, after seeing Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes cancelled and Young Justice cancelled, shows with smarter stories that apparently didn't appeal to the masses enough to sustain, I am fine with how things are.

Be careful what you ask for.
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Old 2013-03-09, 12:17   Link #10857
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tl;dr version of Kaijo's explanation - "Everything is possible in manga, because it's shounen".
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Old 2013-03-09, 12:41   Link #10858
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Even shorter: shounen logic.
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Old 2013-03-09, 13:28   Link #10859
felix
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"Kaijo logic" (11 characters)
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Old 2013-03-09, 13:44   Link #10860
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"Fairy Tail".
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