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Old 2008-03-27, 20:22   Link #41
Dean_the_Young
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
48 hours. 48 hours to lay down their government and army. There is NOTHING, NOTHING in there that even mentions the use of the mass driver. Please stop talking about bargaining as if it was an option at that time.
You do realize that there was a fair deal of time before the EA fleet arrived, you know. The ultimatum was the result of the poor negotiations, not the opening, and even ultimatums are negotiated when accepted. The devil is in the details, dear heart.

But then, I don't see how much more there is to discuss with someone inexperienced in fundamentals of negotiations, so consider this my last post to you. Feel free to spend the minutes replying, though, even if they could be spent learning game theory.

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1. The fact that even you are now agreeing on is that the safety of ORB's citizens was not guaranteed whatever decision they made.
And yet they chose the path that was most likely to result in serious civilian losses, choosing the fight against a superior power without any help. The justification for that decision was not about the potential losses if they made a choice to delay a fight: the series made it rather clear that Atha made his choice in the name of his ideals.
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2. IIRC ORB did not even know that EA wanted their mass driver, just that they wanted ORB.
You remember wrong. It was rather obvious and explictly noted that the EA invasion of Orb had everything to do with the ZAFT attack on Panama and the resultant loss of the EA's last mass driver.
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3. They fought back to defend their country, and when that failed they made sure that people did not die in vain by destroying all things of value in the country.
Uh no, they didn't. They destroyed the mass driver, and that was about it. Two years later, Orb is fielding one of the comparitively most advanced mass-produced mobile suits in CE after a significant arms buildup, rebuilt its mass driver, and had not so much as a scratch of the old battle left visible.

None of which change the fact that Orb deliberately chose to fight against a superior foe with no assistance and only destroyed their mass driver to deny it to the enemy, not as a negotiations tool. Brave and valliant the retreating soldiers of Orb may have been before they left the capital island to the tender mercies of the EA, but that doesn't change the foolishness of their supreme, unelected, heriditary ruler.

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4. The way you talk is as if barely anyone made it out of ORB or that ORB did not try to get their civilians out in order to stop casualties.
Read what I say, not what you imagine I say. I've made it rather clear that I recognize that refugee boats got out, as well as that significant amounts of civilians were left on the Orb island. I've also noted that their survival after the battle had more to do with the EA not carring about them than anything Orb's defense force did: by the end of the day, Orb's forces are beaten, while the EA navy rules the waters. Orb couldn't have stopped the EA if it wanted to, but the EA didn't want to. Had the EA rounded up every refugee ship and sunk them in the middle of the Pacific with all hands aboard, it would have been another example of the imptency of Athha's policy decisions.
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Shinn's family was a casualty of an attack by an enemy nation. Therefore it would make sense for him to hate the country that attacked his country and killed his family. I do not believe it makes sense to get angry at the leaders of your nation for trying to protect you.
Congratulations: my opinion on your world-wiseness just went down a notch. It's a perfectly common occurance for people to blame those people other than those who actually committed and attack, whether because they helped set up the situation that allowed the attack to commence, made poor choices that led to a disaster, or because of some belief of a conspiracy. I'm sure even you have heard of the various flavors of the 9-11 conspiracies?

Well, maybe you haven't. I won't expect that much. But when faced with a situation, Athha made a decision that had serious foreseeable and preventable/delayable (depending on your scenario) consequences.


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Please don't make crap up just to win an argument. SEED showed people were coming from all over the place to live in ORB because of their ideals. They defended the nation well considering the circumstances.
One: "considering the circumstances" does nothing but try and hide the fact that they failed. Finland fought well "considering the circumstances," which really just meant that they drowned under oceans of Soviet blood before going under Soviet occupation for a good while. Good leaders recognize when "doing well considering the circumstances" is no substitute for not doing anything at all.

Two: I was talking about the Athas, not the people of Orb. The Atha legacy of leadership is rather telling: in Seed, it sees a space colony annhalated (no response), the mainland invaded, and the government decapitated (through their own suicide). In Destiny, we open up with Cagelli attempting to berate Durandle for having weapons as Orb finishes its own major military buildup, Orb allying with the as it declares war on trumped-up charges (every national government knew that ZAFT wasn't responsible for Junius 7, and had in fact been the only one to work to prevent it), the entire Orb expeditionary force annihalated (after the brother of the leader of the country, who had signed the Treaty of Alliance against ZAFT, prevented Orb soldiers from destroying the Minerva), and Orb once again attacked (because the Athhas decided to harbor a man wanted for crimes against humanity).

About the only good results the Athhas brough Orb was when Cagelli helped install Lacus as leader of the PLANTS, giving Orb the friendship of the strongest power in the solar system. The only people who had worse results under their leadership, though, was the Atlantic Federation.

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Your rape analogy made no sense and was as necessary and inflammatory as bringing the Nazi's into this discussion. Shinn's family was not a victim of the Athha's choice. They were a victim of the EA's choice.
You can't understand one of the most basic victim-blame situations in the world? Fine. Forget I said it then.

But, and here's something you're clearly too inexperienced to quite grasp, but Athha made a choice in response to the EA's choice. Leaders are judged by their response (and the consequences thereof) to situations they rarely have any control over. The Athha choice saw the burning of Orb and the loss of many lives, and he is judged accordingly.

I'd give a military analogy about how a leader isn't somehow absolved of responsibility when his command is defeated by a superior force just because the enemy chose to attack. If he didn't prepare, seek ways to stop the incident from happening, and use every tool at his disposal to take the best option available, he would be lucky not to relieved of command.

But I doubt that you'd understand that.
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You seem to be getting unnecessarily angry at this discussion; please calm down.
Angry? Trust me, I'm not angry. If it were my dorm-mate saying this BS, I might be. But that's because in three years he would be leading men and woman in situations where knowledge of this level could kill good men and women who could otherwise live. Then I would be angry.

You? You aren't about to be in a position to decide in live or death decisions. You're hardly worth scorn, let alone anger.
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Old 2008-03-28, 02:04   Link #42
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
They didn't even threaten to destroy the mass driver, though. When they did destroy them, it was to deny it from the enemy, not as a negotiation tool. One of the significant tools any small oil-producing nation has these days is the threat to prepare to demolish their own oil wells in the case of an invasion. Since the purpose of invading most small oil-producing countries is, in fact, oil, it can also be particularly effective, especially when those oil-wells are integrated into the world economy (as opposed to an economically and politically isolated country).
I haven't heard of any nations adopting self-immolation as a survival technique before. Besides, it wouldn't even work as a determined occupier would simply repair any such damage. All it would accomplish is the impoverishment of the country after the attacker is driven out, or leaves. Actions of this nature aren't born out of negotiation tact; they're born out of desperation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
48 hours. 48 hours to lay down their government and army. There is NOTHING, NOTHING in there that even mentions the use of the mass driver. Please stop talking about bargaining as if it was an option at that time.
While the ultimatum didn't mention the mass driver directly, the leaders on both sides understood that both it and Morgenrete were the main targets. What the leaders of Orb didn't know was that this was just a secondary attack - the EA's primary target was the Victoria mass driver. They also were unaware that the EA wanted to break Orb's neutral stance no matter what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
I doubt they would have lost if Kira downloaded his hacks before the battle of Orb. Being one of the top aces after Destiny, he could have finished the druggies in less than a minute. Being a mass grunt destroyer, he couldve did soo much damage to the EA if the druggies didnt come into contact.
No matter how powerful Freedom was, it simply has never shown the ability to destroy a vast fleet like that of the EA invasion force.

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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
The answer of whether orb made the right decision I guess is up to the person watching the series. Since some people think ideals>life, or life>ideals...The evacuation wouldve started about 45-47 hours prior to the attack. Anyhow, I thought Orb getting destroyed helped the story whether or not it was a smart move on Uzumi's part. Gundam Seed numbah 3 ftw
In this particular case, all of the choices led to unwelcome results. That's always the problem faced by a weak country confronted by a superior foe, and I think that it made for compelling drama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
You do realize that there was a fair deal of time before the EA fleet arrived, you know. The ultimatum was the result of the poor negotiations, not the opening, and even ultimatums are negotiated when accepted. The devil is in the details, dear heart.
Please check your facts. The ultimatum was the intial EA statement, and Orb actually tried to negotiate up to the last minute. Since Azrael was determined to break Orb's neutrality, war was an inevitable consequence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
And yet they chose the path that was most likely to result in serious civilian losses, choosing the fight against a superior power without any help. The justification for that decision was not about the potential losses if they made a choice to delay a fight: the series made it rather clear that Atha made his choice in the name of his ideals.
The only way to delay the "fight" would have been to immediately ally with the EA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Congratulations: my opinion on your world-wiseness just went down a notch. It's a perfectly common occurance for people to blame those people other than those who actually committed and attack, whether because they helped set up the situation that allowed the attack to commence, made poor choices that led to a disaster, or because of some belief of a conspiracy. I'm sure even you have heard of the various flavors of the 9-11 conspiracies?
You're attacking a strawman; RedWing wasn't claiming that Shinn's reaction wasn't realistic - "I do not believe it makes sense to get angry" is attacking the logic of such a reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
One: "considering the circumstances" does nothing but try and hide the fact that they failed. Finland fought well "considering the circumstances," which really just meant that they drowned under oceans of Soviet blood before going under Soviet occupation for a good while. Good leaders recognize when "doing well considering the circumstances" is no substitute for not doing anything at all.
Are you trying to claim that smaller countries should never try to defend themselves from more powerful attackers? You do realize that there are good reasons for doing so even if the chances of victory are slim, don't you?


Dean_the_Young, while you claim that you're not angry, it's apparent from your language that you're starting to make it personal. I advise that you cease that approach, and stick to attacking arguments instead.
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Old 2008-03-28, 08:19   Link #43
Dean_the_Young
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I haven't heard of any nations adopting self-immolation as a survival technique before. Besides, it wouldn't even work as a determined occupier would simply repair any such damage. All it would accomplish is the impoverishment of the country after the attacker is driven out, or leaves. Actions of this nature aren't born out of negotiation tact; they're born out of desperation
You haven't? Threats to destroy oil infrastructure if invaded during times of tension aren't uncommon (Venezuela does it constantly, though few pay attention anymore. Iran is a better example), and have been tied to fluxuating oil prices when the world market gets a bit unsure of its supply. It's a political tool used to remind both the other countries and their populations of how fragile the infrastructure is, and how important it is for it to stay intact. Building a mass driver is a matter of year(s), not days, and the threat to destroy it is the negotiations tactic, while carrying it out is what comes after the enemy attacks. If "repairing" the Mass Driver was all it took, then it would be much easier, quicker, and more profitable for the EA to rebuild the Panama driver than it ever would for the Orb driver. And since the Orb not only rebuilt their driver quickly, but also also remained a major economic and technological power, it was hardly "impoverishing."


Quote:
In this particular case, all of the choices led to unwelcome results. That's always the problem faced by a weak country confronted by a superior foe, and I think that it made for compelling drama.
Drama? Sure. But weak countries have to step carefully around large angry neighbors, and sticking to a contrary polciy purely for ideological reasons qualifies neither as carefully or good.

Quote:
Please check your facts. The ultimatum was the intial EA statement, and Orb actually tried to negotiate up to the last minute. Since Azrael was determined to break Orb's neutrality, war was an inevitable consequence.
I will admit my error in that. It still doesn't change that Athha made his choice when faced with a circumstance.
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The only way to delay the "fight" would have been to immediately ally with the EA.
And when the fight came, they could have had EA assisstance to fight against ZAFT. That puts them at a much better position than against the EA on their own. ZAFT orbital drops against prepared positions (as such a small island as Orb generally can be considered) were generally disastrous, and the EA navy that attacked Orb can also be the EA navy that helps fight against the ZAFT force attacking Orb.

Quote:
You're attacking a strawman; RedWing wasn't claiming that Shinn's reaction wasn't realistic - "I do not believe it makes sense to get angry" is attacking the logic of such a reaction.
He was saying it was unreasonable for Shinn to blame Attha. I am arguing it is perfectly fair for Attha to blamed for his decisions and their results.
Quote:

Are you trying to claim that smaller countries should never try to defend themselves from more powerful attackers? You do realize that there are good reasons for doing so even if the chances of victory are slim, don't you?
Oh, there's nothing wrong with trying to defend yourself from a larger country. It's just generally helpful to have the means to do it. It used to be that small Eastern European countries in the Soviet sphere could be mauled into submission by the Red Army. Then they joined NATO, and while economic pressure is there the threat of military intervention is, shall we say, much reduced?

But when you stand against a stronger neighbor without aid, you really shouldn't be surprised when you get mauled. Assuming that neutrality is going to save your citizens when neutrality is not a choice, though, is a fool's errand.


Quote:
Dean_the_Young, while you claim that you're not angry, it's apparent from your language that you're starting to make it personal. I advise that you cease that approach, and stick to attacking arguments instead.
I already said I wouldn't talk to him, so consider this taken with the intent it was intended.
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Old 2008-03-28, 11:30   Link #44
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Quote:
He was saying it was unreasonable for Shinn to blame Attha. I am arguing it is perfectly fair for Attha to blamed for his decisions and their results.
Unreasonable for Shinn to blame Attha? How so? Maybe on the macro level, but not on the micro level. Look at the number of people of who blamed the US government for not preventing 911.

And I guess I'd agree that it's the Orb's govt failure. Look at how the Swiss managed to avoid getting trampled by the Nazi juggernaut. Orb basically handed the initiative over to their enemy when they decided to just sit still and do nothing.
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Old 2008-03-28, 17:46   Link #45
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I haven't heard of any nations adopting self-immolation as a survival technique before. Besides, it wouldn't even work as a determined occupier would simply repair any such damage. All it would accomplish is the impoverishment of the country after the attacker is driven out, or leaves. Actions of this nature aren't born out of negotiation tact; they're born out of desperation.

I thought you knew better than this, 4Tran. That was probably the single most foolish statement I've ever seen you make, since if not for such a tactic, as someone born in the Soviet Union, I very well may have been speaking German for my primary language if not for the Russians burning all of the fields upon retreating so that by the time the German army got to just outside of Moscow, they were out of food and dressed for the summer.

And after that, Russian Winter+low resources=goodbye German army.

Probably the most boneheaded move of all of WW2.
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Old 2008-03-28, 18:20   Link #46
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
I thought you knew better than this, 4Tran. That was probably the single most foolish statement I've ever seen you make, since if not for such a tactic, as someone born in the Soviet Union, I very well may have been speaking German for my primary language if not for the Russians burning all of the fields upon retreating so that by the time the German army got to just outside of Moscow, they were out of food and dressed for the summer.

And after that, Russian Winter+low resources=goodbye German army.

Probably the most boneheaded move of all of WW2.
Outright declaring war on the US with no means to fight them should also rank up there. Outright freeing US convoys to Russia, so that the American factories could ship the Russian boots, highly refined aviation fuels, and supply trucks needed for the Russian steamroller was rather stupid: "factories that can only produce razor blades" my butt.
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Old 2008-03-28, 23:12   Link #47
Demongod86
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True enough. However, the US was already explicitly letting Britain borrow funds and such to stop Germany.
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Old 2008-03-29, 00:00   Link #48
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
You haven't? Threats to destroy oil infrastructure if invaded during times of tension aren't uncommon (Venezuela does it constantly, though few pay attention anymore. Iran is a better example), and have been tied to fluxuating oil prices when the world market gets a bit unsure of its supply. It's a political tool used to remind both the other countries and their populations of how fragile the infrastructure is, and how important it is for it to stay intact.
I haven't ever heard it as an instrument of policy in the place of a standard military response to enemy aggression. They're usually not treated all that seriously because oil field fires, while requiring a great deal of effort to put out, can be. Even the devastation of the Kuwaiti oil fires only took 8 months to completely restore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Building a mass driver is a matter of year(s), not days, and the threat to destroy it is the negotiations tactic, while carrying it out is what comes after the enemy attacks. If "repairing" the Mass Driver was all it took, then it would be much easier, quicker, and more profitable for the EA to rebuild the Panama driver than it ever would for the Orb driver. And since the Orb not only rebuilt their driver quickly, but also also remained a major economic and technological power, it was hardly "impoverishing."
The EA had already planned their primary attack at the Victoria mass driver. The invasion of Orb was more of a side jaunt to show the world that maintaining neutrality was not possible.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
I will admit my error in that. It still doesn't change that Athha made his choice when faced with a circumstance. And when the fight came, they could have had EA assisstance to fight against ZAFT. That puts them at a much better position than against the EA on their own. ZAFT orbital drops against prepared positions (as such a small island as Orb generally can be considered) were generally disastrous, and the EA navy that attacked Orb can also be the EA navy that helps fight against the ZAFT force attacking Orb.
Uzumi didn't "make a choice" so much as he was resigned to his decision. PLANT would have been forced to attack Orb in the event of an Orb-EA alliance, and a battle of Orb with escalated forces stood to be much more devastating than the EA-Orb battle. And of course, looking at the post-war picture, an alliance with the EA would have led to even more dire effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
But when you stand against a stronger neighbor without aid, you really shouldn't be surprised when you get mauled. Assuming that neutrality is going to save your citizens when neutrality is not a choice, though, is a fool's errand.
And sometimes conflict was unavoidable. Remember that the EA literally had no casus belli whatsoever for war upon Orb.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
He was saying it was unreasonable for Shinn to blame Attha. I am arguing it is perfectly fair for Attha to blamed for his decisions and their results.
That's not what you were doing - all you did was reiterate that Shinn's reaction was realistic. Guess what? No one is arguing against such a point: in fact, Shinn tends to be applauded for being a realistic character.

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Originally Posted by Killer Tomato View Post
Unreasonable for Shinn to blame Attha? How so? Maybe on the macro level, but not on the micro level.
In what way do you think that attributing blame in that manner is reasonable?

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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
I thought you knew better than this, 4Tran. That was probably the single most foolish statement I've ever seen you make, since if not for such a tactic, as someone born in the Soviet Union, I very well may have been speaking German for my primary language if not for the Russians burning all of the fields upon retreating so that by the time the German army got to just outside of Moscow, they were out of food and dressed for the summer.
I was implicitly referring to a situation where "the threatened country is small, and can't gain from a scorched earth strategy", thus any comparisons to Barbarossa aren't in play. More specifically, I was referring to burning one's oil wells as an alternative to a regular military defense in the face of attack.

Spoiler for World War II Off-topic:
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Old 2008-03-29, 00:06   Link #49
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-Kusanagi parts in space.
-They don't have anywhere to run on Earth.
-Send them to place + destroy mass driver = good escape route
-Kira/Athrun no-kill policy kind of a disadvantage too.
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Old 2009-06-06, 05:38   Link #50
Double 120%
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Originally Posted by Nvis View Post
\
-Kira/Athrun no-kill policy kind of a disadvantage too.
I'm not sure they had a no-kill policy that early in seed did they? Didn't Asuran kill one of the druggies later on too?



Anyway, I think the Archangel with Buster and Strike could have easily led a counter attack and destroyed the EA fleet, while Freedom and Justice kept the druggies busy, and Orb mobile suits and defenses kept the EA mobile suits busy. But Murrue refused to use the Lohengrin cannons on earth because of "environmental damage," and nerfed the Archangel's most powerful weapon. Environmental damage would be my least concern when my country is being attacked.

Funny considering how many times the Minerva fired its Tannhauser on earth without regard. And the EA even set up a Lohengrin turret on earth to boot. I didn't really see any environmental damage when they used it.
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Old 2009-06-06, 16:00   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double 120% View Post
I'm not sure they had a no-kill policy that early in seed did they? Didn't Asuran kill one of the druggies later on too?



Anyway, I think the Archangel with Buster and Strike could have easily led a counter attack and destroyed the EA fleet, while Freedom and Justice kept the druggies busy, and Orb mobile suits and defenses kept the EA mobile suits busy. But Murrue refused to use the Lohengrin cannons on earth because of "environmental damage," and nerfed the Archangel's most powerful weapon. Environmental damage would be my least concern when my country is being attacked.

Funny considering how many times the Minerva fired its Tannhauser on earth without regard. And the EA even set up a Lohengrin turret on earth to boot. I didn't really see any environmental damage when they used it.
Kira started his no kill policy when he left Plant with Freedom. I couldn't tell you when Athrun adopted that policy however.
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Old 2009-06-06, 16:17   Link #52
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Did Athrun ever adopt that policy?
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Old 2009-06-06, 16:20   Link #53
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Occasionally. There were a few scenes where he only blew off limbs and heads instead of cockpits using the Justice. Just as there was at least one scene in SEED where Kira killed using the Freedom--he cut a battleship in half with the Meteor's beam sword. He didn't look very happy doing it, either.
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Old 2009-06-07, 01:07   Link #54
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Athrun only had a no kill policy against Orb forces in Destiny and occasionally Zaft. He seems to have no qualm with killing EA forces though.
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Old 2009-06-07, 01:27   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Athrun only had a no kill policy against Orb forces in Destiny and occasionally Zaft. He seems to have no qualm with killing EA forces though.
Well they did have a tendency to launch weapons of mass destruction at his people at the drop of a hat...
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