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Old 2003-11-12, 10:54   Link #41
Tboz
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Join Date: Nov 2003
The typical mangaka have to concern himself with the storytelling as well.

American comics usually have a writer and a artist to accomplish that, its like having two people do the work of one.

Some of the popular titles have to work extra hard in order to meet the deadline for the weeklies as well. While its common to find an American comic artist working on two or more titles at the same time.

The thing I don't like most about some of the titles is that they change the lineup frequently, while very part of a manga is the hard and soul of the creator.

That's not to say I condemn comics, I still love them for what they...
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Old 2003-11-12, 16:38   Link #42
Miracleman
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To Dorfl:
Do you judge an anime off of the first episode? If you do then I don't need to write anymore. I didn't see what the big hoopla was about Sandman was until the 2nd book... then the 3rd... then I was hooked.

And awards and critics influence people whether they like it or not. If you have deluded yourself into believing that they do not, then you're living in a dream world, bottom line. You'll all grow out of it, I'm sure. Puberty is just around the corner.

To: snoopy
And no, snoopy... you didn't "simply say you hated American comics". You showed your pure and complete ignorance to the forum with your follow-up comments (much love for that). What is your idea of a "diss" anyway?

"All manga and anime are the same. They're all derivative (snoopy... do you even know what this word means?) in that they have the same cast of characters, the doting schoolgirls, the cool popular guy, the loser trying to get into a good college, big robots etc. etc. No originality whatsoever... and what's with the art? It all looks EXACTLY THE SAME. The lines are too soft! Everyone has big eyes, big heads, big racks, and short skirts. Where's the originality?"

Was that a "diss"... in your humble estimation?

And please elaborate on some of your earlier comments. Lines are too harsh? I used to draw comics so I'll take that line as an ignorant fanboy's opinion, and leave it at that. If you would like to debate art, I'll be happy to comply.

"The stories are all derivative (of the ones that I've bothered to skim through... trust me, I have no intention of ever doing that again)."

I watched Spirited Away at Art Center, Pasadena and this line just reeked of the ignorance that they were spewing (though directed toward Japanese animation). They seem to be as close-minded as you, and thus hopeless.

Comparing the two is far from fruitless. That's the ultimate cop-out. This is a discussion board. Please don't make me elaborate.

You continue to judge American Comics as though you're some kind of expert on them (and this isn't speculation... re-read your earlier posts before you open your hole again). You've already stated that you've only "bothered to skim through them" recently and your middle school experiences are probably best left forgotten. Why I'm wasting time on you is beyond me. But I'm caught up here at work, and you've killed some time for me. Please reply, so that I have something to do on my next donut break.

For the more open-minded readers, I'll post a list of American Comics that I think are very original soon. I hope you can take a minute to check some of them out.
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Old 2003-11-12, 17:26   Link #43
uglypigs
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neil gaiman often said that he didnt really have a feeling for sandman till the second book. thats when he really knew what was going on and when it and how it end.

the real diss i have about comics right now is the way its all going "anime", i use the term very loosely, drawn. i find highly irritating to say the least.

but there will always be good shit, and there will always be bad shit. this applies to all forms of medium. weither its manga or comics or anything else. i myself will not close my mind to anything, i feel that its a diservice to myself and to all the great artists and writers that are out here. be it kentarou miura, ashley wood, tsuhome nihei, alan moore and all the others out there.

miracleman i would love to see what you have to offer, and i think there should be another list for manga, stuff that people feel is real good, and progressing the medium forward that maybe people have not found out about yet.
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Old 2003-11-13, 02:50   Link #44
snoopy
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*sigh* Miracleman, are you going to be my new special friend?

I said that I hated them, and then gave reasons. If I hadn't given those reasons, I'm sure you would have called me some name reminiscent of someone who hates things without trying them first.

Now then, you must read nothing but shoujo and mecha manga, man... and perhaps I read (this is past tense, btw) nothing but Marvel and DC (and a few others, but it's been a while, so I forget the names), but from what I saw the lines were too harsh, ie, the only distinction in shadow was how much black the artist splattered across the page to give the characters their outlines. To me, that makes the lines too harsh. It's an opinion. The first rule of debate is to state all opinions as fact. Look it up, it's there.

Assuming that you've read things from nothing but Shounen Jump, you'll find many similarities from story to story and artist to artist. Those mangas were written to be popular with children. People with limited attention spans and a pension for explosions. Much like America as a whole (hence, comic books). If you were to look at work that was made for a mature audience, you would find other styles, stories, and backdrops. You would also discover how incredibly wrong you are.

And yes, I know what derivative means. I didn't graduate middle school for nothing (please note that I graduated from other things later, too... just that I think I probably learned that word in seventh grade english in one of those evil vocab quizes that bitch always gave us ). To me, when I say something is derivative, I mean that it takes aspects from one or more other stories and then adds maybe one extra element and claims to be original. An example sentence: "Ikkitousen is derivative of Tenjou Tenge." (Hah! Conceeded a point! Now what will you do? Hm?)

You asked a few times what my definition of 'diss' is (once was enough, you're wasting space...). Well, from where I come from, a 'diss' is kind of like taking a cheap shot while someone's down. For example, if I were to go and have sex with someone's girlfriend and then tell him how terrible she was in bed, it'd kinda be like a diss... but honestly, you caught me at a bad time for coming up with entertaining anecdotes, so please excuse the lack of imagination.

I accept the fact that there are things for which I am close minded. One, I will never eat tomatoes. Two, I would never go to Africa. Three, Mexico is best left in a gutter to die. And Four, I'll never ever tell anyone that American comic books are worth the paper they're printed on. It really is that simple, and I'm glad that you managed to read between the lines hard enough to understand that. You deserve a cookie.

Also, the proof of a weak argument is resorting to lowbrow mud slinging, which I do believe you have accomplished beautifully. While I may not be an expert in American comics, I am one in Japanese mangas. I believe that would make us representatives of completely opposite views, wouldn't it?

Damn, missed one. I said that it was fruitless because this debate is based entirely on opinion. And we're the only ones debating. People who are set in their views debating a topic will never yield anything, ever. In fact, if you reply to this post with anything even remotely immature, this thread will have turned into nothing but an online arguement.
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Old 2003-11-13, 04:24   Link #45
Dorfl
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Gee, miracleman, snoopy, you sure have a lot of time. If it was me, I would probably let it all slide. This is a discussion forum, true, but I don't really enjoy these long "You said, I said, you're dumb, I'm smart" arguments. Miracleman likes comics, snoopy doesn't, that doesn't make any of you bad or stupid people. Furthermore, the fact that someone dislikes something you like does not affect its intrinsic worth, in my opinion. If comics are good, they're good whether snoopy likes them or not. If manga is good, it's good whether miracleman likes them or not. It's not as if either of you is going to change the other's mind just by arguing about it: "Oh wow, I had this sudden epiphany, I finally see the light..." so why do you do it?
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Old 2003-11-13, 10:07   Link #46
snoopy
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Because I'm bored. And arguing over the internet is one of my simpler pleasures in life. You see, as long as you don't take it seriously, little quips like these have the possibility to be extremely entertaining for both the participant and the viewer. I get plagued with e-mails informing me of my own 'stupiditie' daily, and if I was truly offended by anything anyone tells me, then I would have vanished from the community years ago
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Old 2003-11-16, 04:03   Link #47
FinFangFoom
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Snoopy if you hate american comics based on Marvel and DC then to steal a quote from you

Quote:
Assuming that you've read things from nothing but Shounen Jump, you'll find many similarities from story to story and artist to artist. Those mangas were written to be popular with children. People with limited attention spans and a pension for explosions. Much like America as a whole (hence, comic books). If you were to look at work that was made for a mature audience, you would find other styles, stories, and backdrops. You would also discover how incredibly wrong you are.
You can easily substitue "Shounen Jump" with the words "Marvel and DC" and you still have a mostly true sentence. Marvel and DC got there start back in the 60's and while they have gotten a bit darker over the years, they still are still basically the same Super-Powered hero's in spandex saving the universe every month. And the rights to each character is owned by the company and therefore you have 100 different interpitation of the same characters by different people and new writers all the time. But they still put out some great "Mature" comics (The movie ROAD TO PERDITION with Tom Hanks is based on a DC graphic novel). Or if you look at more indepenant comics you'll find much better, deeper stories that are completly controlled by the original author. And because most comics are monthly or bi-monthly, you'll find much deeper stories with artwork that blows away most manga (100 Bullets, Sandman, Preacher, The Maxx).

But for me the biggest difference is the artwork. I'll post a few examples. (I'm posting a few pages of licensed work, but only a small part of it. I've seen people do this before here without getting in trouble, but if i'm pushing the limits please let me know and i'll remove the links or a MOD can do it.)

The first is from one of my all time favorite series called the Maxx. VERY deep, and great artwork. I won't bother trying to explain the story but it's definatly worth checking out, in either comic form (35 issue's I believe) or the Animated Series from MTV's Liquid Television back in the 90's, which has the same art as the comic and Macho Man Randy Savage doing the voice for Maxx (He suprisingly does a really good job) .You can get the whole series on a 2-3 hour vhs tape on e-bay for like $5-10.

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Maxx%201.JPG

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Maxx%202.JPG

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Maxx%203.JPG

And this one is from Dream Wave's Transformers Mini-series. If you grew up on Transformers like I did then this is a Comic you've been dreaming of (Transformers where people can die). I don't think you'll find a cooler picture in a Manga (maybe on a cover but not inside). This leads to a short but sweet ass fight.

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Transformers%201.JPG

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Transformers%202.JPG
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ps. hey FinFangFoom, can you change that pic of yours in the sig because when ever I read threads that have your message post in it would make people around me think I am watching gay porn, make it smaller or something
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Old 2003-11-16, 09:21   Link #48
snoopy
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Ok, I'll counter with Air Gear. Maybe using Oh!Great isn't fair... but he's my favorite artist, so I don't care. Please pardon my shitty scanning, as I didn't feel like taking any time to do these.

Two-page spread he obviously spent some time on (and I love this pic... it's just so utterly ridiculous): http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears1.jpg
Random page... comparitively average: http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears2.jpg
Another spread I threw in 'cause it has a tank : http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears3.jpg
And an example of color work (I scanned it in a bad resolution, so the color looks kinda grainy, that's all my bad, the original's smooth): http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears4.jpg

And just FYI, this is a weekly.
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Old 2003-11-16, 12:21   Link #49
tsuki_desu
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I like manga better because of the art. It's much better than anime and more detailed. Plus, it's the real story which most of the time I find better than the altered anime versions.
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Old 2003-11-17, 20:30   Link #50
XooX
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I'am realy not a expert on american comic and will use sweeping generalization to make my point, but isn't it what arguing on the net is all about?

The major problem with adult american comic is that they overcompensate for the "disney effect" by making dark gloomy and realistic looking comic. It's all ok if you like that style but I don't.

The fact that your telling a mature story doesn't mean you can't use a lighter drawing style, but in america it seem to (at least for all I know please show me one that isn't).

I also have a problem with the animal-personification theme thats a lot more present in american comic than in manga, since I prefer character driven story and it's tougher for me to realy get into the adventure of an hippopotamus.

Feel free to think of it as my shortcomming rather than that of the american comic book but you can't denny the ability of manga to cover a lot more style and genre then american comic.
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Old 2003-11-18, 22:16   Link #51
FinFangFoom
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First of all Snoopy - Yes those pictures you posted are awsome examples of good manga, but my point is'nt "Comics are better than Manga" rather I wanted to post a few examples of American Comics that might dispell some of your prejudise against them. Considering your only experiance with them are with series like X-men, Spider-Man ect. Those are really hit or miss, and if they are good it will only be for 3-6 issues while a really talented writer takes the helm.

If you want depth from a series you really need to try something different. I really like The Maxx, it has a good blend of humor (at least I find sorcerers of the mystic arts who need to use hand guns to be funny ), action, drama, and intreage (sorry for spelling ). Half the time your trying to figure out if the main character is really a hero or just as the rest of the city see's him, a crazy homeless guy (one minute he's on a perch being swarmed by a million Is, the next he's perched up on a mail-box on a crowded city sidewalk.)

Another one that is really popular now is 100 bullets, deffinatly not another super-hero with a cape comic. Cheak out the homepage for more on what thats about.

Personally I just like the American style better, I think the art is higher quality and has much more diversity. But I can understand why someone might feel different, manga is cool too. Just wanted to give you a different view.

XooX - Your right, you are making a major generalization. Yes some American comics are really dark, but that is only some of them. Click on the Transformers link in my post above. Those are serious comics, not like the original cartoon. But you will notice that they are bright and colorful. There are many others just like that.

As far as
Quote:
also have a problem with the animal-personification theme thats a lot more present in american comic than in manga, since I prefer character driven story and it's tougher for me to realy get into the adventure of an hippopotamus.
I really don't know what you are talking about. The only series that I'm aware of that could be similar to that is "Usagi Yojimbo" about a samari rabbit (very sweet). But beyond that most all american comics deal with humans or humanoids as main characters.

Quote:
you can't denny the ability of manga to cover a lot more style and genre then american comic.
I very strongly disagree with that. Maybe Manga beats american comics in different types of genre, but no way it comes close with style. The reason for that is very simple. Japan is filled with Japanese people who use Japanese style (anime, big eyes ect) that is very consistant. There are deffinatly variations, but I think a good sign that the variation is limited is the fact that each style has a name (Shonin, Shoujo, ect. sorry for spelling), but most people on this board can spot manga style from a mile away becasue they all share similar traits. America is a big melting pot of different cultures, and that can be seen in the very wide variety of styles that are used now days including manga style (Usagi Yojmbo creator was born in Japan but raised in America so has both influances). The closest people can come to labeling the differences in American style is to refer to the name of the artist as the style (McFarlane style was big for a while) but thats pretty rare.
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Originally Posted by gummybear
ps. hey FinFangFoom, can you change that pic of yours in the sig because when ever I read threads that have your message post in it would make people around me think I am watching gay porn, make it smaller or something
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Old 2003-11-19, 01:10   Link #52
XooX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinFangFoom
XooX - Your right, you are making a major generalization. Yes some American comics are really dark, but that is only some of them. Click on the Transformers link in my post above. Those are serious comics, not like the original cartoon. But you will notice that they are bright and colorful. There are many others just like that.
Yes transformer got a manga feel to it, but aren't they somewhat influence by japanese mecha manga?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinFangFoom
As far as I really don't know what you are talking about. The only series that I'm aware of that could be similar to that is "Usagi Yojimbo" about a samari rabbit (very sweet). But beyond that most all american comics deal with humans or humanoids as main characters.
Personification (prosopopeia) is a figure of speech in which human qualities are attributed to an animal, object, or idea.

I was taking about cerebus, but transformer also enter the non-human personification case, also lots of american manga have a very loose definition of human like charater, bones and akiko comes from spyre post comes to mind. Manga also use Personification but rarely for main characters. That's a personal opinion though and realy doesn't mean comic are not good just that I don't realy get into the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinFangFoom
I very strongly disagree with that. Maybe Manga beats american comics in different types of genre, but no way it comes close with style. The reason for that is very simple. Japan is filled with Japanese people who use Japanese style (anime, big eyes ect) that is very consistant. There are deffinatly variations, but I think a good sign that the variation is limited is the fact that each style has a name (Shonin, Shoujo, ect. sorry for spelling), but most people on this board can spot manga style from a mile away becasue they all share similar traits. America is a big melting pot of different cultures, and that can be seen in the very wide variety of styles that are used now days including manga style (Usagi Yojmbo creator was born in Japan but raised in America so has both influances). The closest people can come to labeling the differences in American style is to refer to the name of the artist as the style (McFarlane style was big for a while) but thats pretty rare.
Maybe style wasn't the word I should have use ,sorry not native english speaking, I was more talking about different kind of story, I don't see american comic making story about potery or competition knitting but I'am sure Japan have at least 1 or 2 10 volume manga about it ;P
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Old 2003-11-19, 06:11   Link #53
FinFangFoom
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Quote:
Yes transformer got a manga feel to it, but aren't they somewhat influence by japanese mecha manga?
I didn't mean to compare it to manga, what I mean is that there are lots of American comics that are as colorful and bright as that, that still have mature themes. I only used that as an example because you could look at it yourself to see what I mean.

Quote:
Personification (prosopopeia) is a figure of speech in which human qualities are attributed to an animal, object, or idea.
When I said I don't know what you mean by that, I meant that I wasnt aware of very many american comics that do that. I've heard of Cerebus but Iv'e never read it so I didn't think of that one. There could be quite a few more that do that but I'm not really very aware of them. Oh, I guess there's Flamming Carrot also that might be like that but I never gave it thought because that doesn't bother me. So maybe your right and I just havn't noticed.

Quote:
Maybe style wasn't the word I should have use ,sorry not native english speaking, I was more talking about different kind of story, I don't see american comic making story about potery or competition knitting but I'am sure Japan have at least 1 or 2 10 volume manga about it ;P
OK, that makes sense. You got me there, America is still a ways away from having that kind of diversity in genres (can't think of a better word either ). Although with the rate that Manga is being licensed and imported to the States it may not be long before we start diversifying more also from the influance.
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ps. hey FinFangFoom, can you change that pic of yours in the sig because when ever I read threads that have your message post in it would make people around me think I am watching gay porn, make it smaller or something
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Old 2003-11-19, 17:56   Link #54
dexter
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This is the only thing I can say about this topic :

Not all manga are turned into anime only the popular one's are turned into anime , because it cost more to produce anime than manga !!!
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Old 2003-11-19, 19:15   Link #55
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well on the topic.... i'd say i like manga more cause, like one said, portability, also i like seeing the art used... sometimes a manga won't have a good style that could be used in anime (see Samura, Blade of the Immortal) while i'm sure the story would be a fairly good one, the anime wouldn't be nearly as good as the manga in that case... also there are alot more titles and much more story. there are a few occasions where the anime is better than the manga, but it's rare.
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Old 2003-11-19, 20:08   Link #56
hunterx
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could it be that you are only familiar with superhero type american comics? The same flaw that makes americans think that japanese comics are just perverted and full of panty shots?
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Old 2003-11-19, 21:28   Link #57
raikage
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ON topic -
I prefer reading Manga because you can set your own pace and because you can fill in all these little holes yourself:

Think of someone running. How fast (you can animate the speed lines yourself)? How hard is he panting? Sweating? How about when he trips on a root and slams face-first into the ground? How hard was the hit? ALL of those are decided by whoever is reading the manga/comic book.

Pros for anime: Sound, ability to be viewed as a group experience, um...that's about all I can think of...

P.S. I'm definitely pro-American comics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy
I can't stand American comic books... they just... suck. Of course, manga's different, for reasons listed above.
heh..everything above your first post related to manga vs ANIME, not manga vs American comics. But, of course, here's what I saw at first:

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy
I can't stand American comic books... they just... suck. Of course, manga's different
and I thought (because I've heard this a lot before) Of course? Of course, what?!? Because they're Japanese, they are automatically far superior to their American equivalents? I heard that from SO many people that it put me off anime/manga for a LONG time.

And, for those of you that say you dabbled in American comics and got completely turned off:
I'm sorry that you all had bad experiences traumatic enough to turn you away from comics forever.

For those of you considering checking out American comics:
Find out what's good first. If I had started out anime by picking random stuff off the shelf or what seemed to be popular, what would I have watched first?
Gundam Wing
Hellsing
Dragonball Z
and
Initial D

and THOSE would have put me off anime for a really, really long time (don't want to say 'forever')
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Old 2003-11-19, 21:41   Link #58
snoopy
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I'm not going to bother rearguing my point to someone who obviously didn't read the first argument. But I will tell you that my 'reasons stated above' were the same regardless of whether they were talking about manga vs anime, or manga vs comics. Don't read stupidity into posts, man. Read what I say, and then assume it's what I meant. If you don't agree, that's one thing, but seriously.
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Old 2003-11-19, 22:29   Link #59
raikage
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Aaah, time for me to be a nitpicky a**hole.

What was stated above your first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterx
The anime usually leaves out stuff they think is unnecessary or just don't fit into 30minute slots
Quote:
Originally Posted by AG3
...the written one is most often considered better. Take Lord of the Rings, for instance. I'm sure most people who read the triology before the movies came prefer the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagare Ryouma
Well, manga's are literally the origin of the animes.
So, how do these relate to comics?

Okay, enough a**holeness. But, please, PLEASE, don't call ALL comics that ever have been, currently are, or will ever be published trash. It's one thing to say the comics you've read personally are garbage. It's quite another to take an entire medium and decry it as not worth the paper it's printed on.

Yes, there are bad comics out there. There are enough bad comics to fill dumptrucks and..well..I'm kind of stuck for analogies at the moment. One could even go so far as to say the bad comic/good comic ratio discourages many people from the hobby, as it does get tiring trying to dig the gems out of the dirt.

But...

Assuming you're around my age (and I'm 21), are you saying that within the past eight years there has been nothing produced of value; that there is absolutely no way the comics community could have turned around and put anything of any social and/or artistic value on the shelves? That's a pretty big statement there, dude.
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Old 2003-11-20, 00:48   Link #60
snoopy
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*sigh* Look, my friend. I meant the statements of how manga are good, not the statements meant to directly... damnit, my mind's not working... compare anime and manga. I'm not going to take the trouble to read them all but I'm sure at least one listed the benefits of manga as a medium rather than as compared to anime... if they didn't, I don't know, maybe I was drunk, it was like a week ago, I don't really remember. But if you would please read everything else from that point on, you'd see that I'm a close-minded asshole who hates mexico, tomatoes, africa and american comic books. Good day to you, sir.
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