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Old 2006-08-13, 21:46   Link #101
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
You gave good examples of Chouji and Tsunade. However you have omitted the major difference in those cases: being in a condition to help and the availability of external help. For me there are two important conditions for a medic to help a patient. Helping is possible and being in a situation to help. What I mentioned is highly related to the first condition.

I think we can agree that Rin most probably does not have the qualifications to make the best-case judgement. In other words, she didn't think that Obito can be saved at least not by her. Otherwise, Rin wouldn't have done the transplant. But, Rin has already made the decision that Obito was a goner, which is also shared by Obito, and made the transplant based on a death-bed request. If you want to compare to the case of Tsunade, it is more like how the medics other than Tsunade could have behaved when trying to help Dan.

Secondly, the condition to help. If Rin and Obito were in a peaceful location where Rin can go crazy like Tsunade (which I don't think will happen) to try to keep Obito alive, she might have pumped chakra into Obito's system until he finally dies. But, they were not in such a situation. More enemies were around and gathering, Obito was sinking deeper under the rocks, Kakashi was out of it, reaching a peaceful location is the first priority, etc. made it easier to leave Obito there lying under the rocks.

The only thing that can happen is to decide after many hours or days (they have to assume that no one can survive after that time) whether to leave his body peacefully lying there or go smash the rocks and possibly his body in the process and try to take the remainings with them. Even if they go there, if somebody has already removed the body and/or changed the ground structure more, will they be able to find the remainings? That part is more important than Rin's decision in order to decide whether Obito stayed alive or crossed the border of life and death.
First of you were the one who gave The Chouji and Lee examples, not me, I was just explaining them-


And it seems you also ignored my entire post, I said is the same as Tsuande with her boyfriend Dan, is not that the person will think "Logically"- when HE/She is seen Someone Dying (an Important person none the less) and thinks there is a slim chance of hope, Even if her perception is that he is going to die, HE/She will do anything to try to stop it, even if at the end they fail, that's all.

I say is Ironic, -and Im not going to start this debate again-, Because, In mY Opinion A medic Nin that can Make an eye transplant but can't tell weather someone can survive or not, is just funny - I don't care how difficult it is for someone to tell that (which it seems is not), I don't care if Making an eye transplant is something teach at the Academy.

And I don't agree that "Rin most probably does not have the qualifications to make the best-case judgement" that's your opinion, not mine.
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:13   Link #102
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
And I don't agree that "Rin most probably does not have the qualifications to make the best-case judgement" that's your opinion, not mine.
That might be my opinion but there are cases that support this opinion. The third pill for Chouji was a death sentence - which should have been the decision shared by almost all the medic nins; he couldn't be saved "unless" Tsunade were there. Lee couldn't go back to being a ninja (which was the decision shared by most probably most of the medics out there) "unless" Tsunade were there. Kankuro couldn't be saved "unless" Sakura were there. To be able to make the correct decision and treatment for some specific cases, you need to be exceptionally skilled. Even being an exceptionally skilled medic ninja may not help you for some specific cases (the poison expertise Chiyo in Kankuro's case). Those examples suggest that (i) Rin's making an eye transplant does not need to make her to qualify in making a good judgment for another case (and I think eye transplant should be a fairly easy job compared to healing a highly injured eye) and (ii) Rin's decisions do not have to reflect the best-case scenario. I honestly neither can put Rin as someone capable of handling exceptional cases nor consider her as a highly exceptional medic nin (when Kakashi was jounin, she was still a chuunin).
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:28   Link #103
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
That might be my opinion but there are cases that support this opinion. The third pill for Chouji was a death sentence - which should have been the decision shared by almost all the medic nins; he couldn't be saved "unless" Tsunade were there. Lee couldn't go back to being a ninja (which was the decision shared by most probably most of the medics out there) "unless" Tsunade were there. Kankuro couldn't be saved "unless" Sakura were there. To be able to make the correct decision and treatment for some specific cases, you need to be exceptionally skilled. Even being an exceptionally skilled medic ninja may not help you for some specific cases (the poison expertise Chiyo in Kankuro's case). Those examples suggest that (i) Rin's making an eye transplant does not need to make her to qualify in making a good judgment for another case (and I think eye transplant should be a fairly easy job compared to healing a highly injured eye) and (ii) Rin's decisions do not have to reflect the best-case scenario. I honestly neither can put Rin as someone capable of handling exceptional cases nor consider her as a highly exceptional medic nin (when Kakashi was jounin, she was still a chuunin).

Yeah, Lets forget that Rin was a Medic nin in a time of war,- telling if someone was going to die, or make desisions based on Life or death situations must have been something new for Rin when she saw Obito dying. because Dying is so strange in a war

Nothing concrete supports your opinion, neither supports mine, Because thats how much we know about Rin and her expertise. also we know too little about the chances of Survival of a person that half his body is destroyed (that could be 50% chances of Survival as it could be 0%).

And Just because Rin was a Chunin Does not means she was mediocre/bellow average at Medic Nin- like Sakura a Chunnin, for Example. even if Tsunade is Sakura Teacher, She is still a Chunnin.
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:49   Link #104
cheese4u
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That rock slide could of been the same if not a similar situation to Lee's. Where not even Tsunade felt that she could do much to help. The medical ninjas detected right away that there was nothing they could do for Lee, so maybe Rin knew that there was nothing she could do for Obito. Plus as already stated this was a war, and they were in the middle of a battle at the time. At most all she could do is emergency treaty, so anything else was futile.
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Old 2006-08-13, 23:03   Link #105
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u
That rock slide could of been the same if not a similar situation to Lee's. Where not even Tsunade felt that she could do much to help. The medical ninjas detected right away that there was nothing they could do for Lee, so maybe Rin knew that there was nothing she could do for Obito. Plus as already stated this was a war, and they were in the middle of a battle at the time. At most all she could do is emergency treaty, so anything else was futile.
Tsunade said it was a 50/50 Chance, and it was a choice decision, Lee was not going to die if he did not took the Surgery, Now the question is, If Lee could had die because of his Handicap, Would Tsuande had Hesitated to Operate?

Once Again Is not my position to talk about what Could have been done, what Could not be done, And what was tough about it, Im merely commenting on how I found Ironic(Or/and Funny) that An Open Heart Surgeon can transplant a Heart, but can't tell that Smoking can cause Heart Failures.

Adn precisley been at war, Rin should had supposse to be prepared to do this type of Treaties, but that another story which I could care less about.
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Old 2006-08-13, 23:31   Link #106
Yondaime-Legacy
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u gotta take in consideration that its harder to take any neccessary steps on a friend thats wounded then a person that means nothing to you. we all know that a doctor doing an operation/surgery on his/her relative is a difficult procedure and one that is diffucult to overcome emotionally. the same would go for Rin as she was not only very young to be figuring out what she can do. She seemed like the type to only follow orders as she did exactly what obito said/ordered (eye transplant) and cried. Its obvious being in that state of emotional distress she wasnt thinking straight and didnt think with a clear head on the situation she was in. Also it was her first time in war (?) and that could mean much more difficult to cope with on-the-stop decisions. if she received any training for situations such as this well you dont learn from then unless you actually experience them as in Rins or anyones else case for that matther... both in this world and narutos'.
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Old 2006-08-14, 09:35   Link #107
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yondaime-Legacy
u gotta take in consideration that its harder to take any neccessary steps on a friend thats wounded then a person that means nothing to you. we all know that a doctor doing an operation/surgery on his/her relative is a difficult procedure and one that is diffucult to overcome emotionally. the same would go for Rin as she was not only very young to be figuring out what she can do. She seemed like the type to only follow orders as she did exactly what obito said/ordered (eye transplant) and cried. Its obvious being in that state of emotional distress she wasnt thinking straight and didnt think with a clear head on the situation she was in. Also it was her first time in war (?) and that could mean much more difficult to cope with on-the-stop decisions. if she received any training for situations such as this well you dont learn from then unless you actually experience them as in Rins or anyones else case for that matther... both in this world and narutos'.
sight, let me try to explain this, for me it will be ironic or Funny that Obito is still alive whereas Rin could not tell he could had survive but she could make an eye transplant.

As There a re people who found Funny that Naruto won a fight by Farting in the face of his enemy. And you donít see me questioning the perception on people about this.

Each one of you, Sazelyt, cheese4u and You, have made good an valid points to explain what could had happened, but still, I find it funny.

Tell me would you find it funny/Ironic/Sad that a Doctor could cure you of a Flu, but he canít tell what causes Flu?


Aslo it was not her first time of the batlefield given that it was a era of War, and she was a Chunin.
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Old 2006-08-14, 10:50   Link #108
stoic
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you guys are thinking too hard. there is certainly a reason why Kishi most gradually brings an unknown character, whom Kishi is well aware resembles Kakashi's best friend. There is no need to discuss Rin, she isn't in akatsuki.

Yondaime is dead.... there is no point in talking about him now either with regard to him being the leader of the akatsuki. The Uchiha Madara background however, im sure that has relevence in terms of Itachi's purpose in Akatsuki.

It would be interesting for Tobi to be Obito because that would create a whole new arc to why he is back and what does he want. Im sure he would have to settle something with kakashi and that would be interesting to see.

If the Uchiha Madara thing is true, Then obito coming back would be perfect. Im sure Sasuke could achieve MS ... Obito most probably has it, and of course, Itachi.

The plot thickens..


(Does anybody have alink to a picture with YONDAIME'S TEAM when he was a kid? jiraiya taught him.. but i heard a few people say that they saw yondaime and his team mates.. i remember seeing them too buh if anybody could post a link, it would be appreciated.)
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Old 2006-08-14, 11:56   Link #109
ri0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoic
Yondaime is dead.... there is no point in talking about him now either with regard to him being the leader of the akatsuki.
Obito is also dead... So I didn't read the rest of your post^^
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Old 2006-08-14, 12:38   Link #110
tatami
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ha ha ha there is a guy saying yondaime is dead and obito may be alive...

btw IF obito is alive i will be sure that yondaime is alive too
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Old 2006-08-14, 12:39   Link #111
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i didnt say he was alive. you should have read the whole thing :P
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Old 2006-08-14, 12:44   Link #112
stoic
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The original and main plot is based around the fourth hokage sacrificing himself to make himself the hero of the village . and also to make naruto the new hero to protect the village. It would make perfect sense to say that Yondaime is dead and Uchiha Obito could possibly be Tobi.

Your rude comment was redundant.
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Old 2006-08-14, 13:21   Link #113
tramadrama
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Funny thing about all of this is that there are more reasons why Tobi could be Obito. To say someone is simply dead, IMHO, is farfetched in a manga, especially when all it takes is a will to do so, otherwise. The 4th is a whole other story. There's always a possibility that the 4th is alive. I don't think he is though, for the story's sake and the general foundation of what Naruto [story] is built off of. Time after time, it's been mentioned that first off, his name, Tobi, is a play on Obito. It's not uncommon to add or drop letters when making a play on names. For instance,
Spoiler for Kingdom Hearts 2:

In this case, a letter is dropped. I have my own reasons why this could be Obito. For example, O's can be generally seen as eyes. So, since Obito has only one eye, you drop one O. Second, like it has been repeated so many times, the eye hole that is opened on Tobi's mask is where Obito's remaining eye is. I'd hate to see how Obito would look now (if he isn't dead), so I guess that mask is necessary. Correct me if I'm wrong, also, but isn't he, next to the "leader" and chick (because we haven't been formally introduced), the only known AKAT member that doesn't seem to have a previous affiliation? How convenient! The truth is, there are too many coincidences and conveniences. Hell, when making up a story like Naruto, to have a two coincidences that are parallel to two characters in that regard are considered too many. And I'm not talking about Kisame/Zabuza type coincidences, I mean a dead character versus a unknown identity character.

So, let's review, one more time.

1. The name.
2. The eye.
3. The personality.

Three facts comparing Obito to Tobi and one fact to oppose generally stating that a big ass rock fell on, what appeared to be, the left side of his head.

Edit: I'm wrong about what side the rock fell on Obito. No one corrected me
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Last edited by tramadrama; 2006-08-16 at 07:51.
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Old 2006-08-14, 14:17   Link #114
s-class uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tramadrama
Funny thing about all of this is that there are more reasons why Tobi could be Obito. To say someone is simply dead, IMHO, is farfetched in a manga, especially when all it takes is a will to do so, otherwise. The 4th is a whole other story. There's always a possibility that the 4th is alive. I don't think he is though, for the story's sake and the general foundation of what Naruto [story] is built off of. Time after time, it's been mentioned that first off, his name, Tobi, is a play on Obito. It's not uncommon to add or drop letters when making a play on names. For instance,
Spoiler for Kingdom Hearts 2:

In this case, a letter is dropped. I have my own reasons why this could be Obito. For example, O's can be generally seen as eyes. So, since Obito has only one eye, you drop one O. Second, like it has been repeated so many times, the eye hole that is opened on Tobi's mask is where Obito's remaining eye is. I'd hate to see how Obito would look now (if he isn't dead), so I guess that mask is necessary. Correct me if I'm wrong, also, but isn't he, next to the "leader" and chick (because we haven't been formally introduced), the only known AKAT member that doesn't seem to have a previous affilation? How convenient! The truth is, there are too many coincidences and conveniences. Hell, when making up a story like Naruto, to have a two coincidences that are parallel to two characters in that regard are considered too many. And I'm not talking about Kisame/Zabuza type coincidences, I mean a dead character versus a unknown identity character.

So, let's review, one more time.

1. The name.
2. The eye.
3. The personality.

Three facts comparing Obito to Tobi and one fact to oppose generally stating that a big ass rock fell on, what appeared to be, the left side of his head.
I agree with ya. I think there are enough clues to point to Obito and I wouldn't be surprised at all, but if it turned out not to be Tobi no surprise either.

The point being Obito could possibly be Tobi (though they did make a grave for him...)

Another thing i would say is that he is the only member without a headband, b/c if he had one (ie Konoha) it would be too obvious who he was.

Side note: Konoha is crazy! Possibly has 4-5 members/exmemebers in Akatsuki.

Itachi, Oro, Tobi, Yondaime, Last Kunoichi

(Yea Yondaime and Last kunoichi being from Konoha far far fetched, but possible nonetheless )
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Old 2006-08-14, 15:28   Link #115
tatami
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there is only one from leaf in akatsuki yondaime is dead we dont know last kun. tobi is a mystery still...and as you said it oro is ex and also from sound =P
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Old 2006-08-14, 16:28   Link #116
Slayerx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatami
ha ha ha there is a guy saying yondaime is dead and obito may be alive...
That's pretty much my current stance, for the most part (since i can reconize the weaknesses in obito=tobi)
Before Tobi showed up i did not question Obito's death... but now we have a character who seems to have one to many things in common with the dead uchiha... coincidence? hard to say... So i open up to the possibility of survival, look back at his death and see a few things to question...

With Yondiame, there is absoluty nothing to even sugest that he could have survived using the sacrifical, sure to kill you, survival rate probably lower than 8 gates, Death god jutsu... Nore is there anything to even sugest that he might be alive... I will not question yondiame's death until i have some reason to think otherwise...

Quote:
Side note: Konoha is crazy! Possibly has 4-5 members/exmemebers in Akatsuki.

Itachi, Oro, Tobi, Yondaime, Last Kunoichi
I'm going with just three...
Besides kohona gets all the crazy shit, title of being the strongest of the 5 villages, most chunin exam participants, the 3 sannin, the greatest kages and whatnot...

besides with 10 rings and five main villages, it's not hard to think kohona to have 2-3 of there's in atasuki, particularily since it's the strongest... ofcourse other main villages only have/had 1 member, but that's because they have to make some room for the smaller villages, such as rain and waterfall...

The Kunoichi, i'm gonna bet my money on cloud... only main village to not have an ataksuki member in it yet...
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Old 2006-08-14, 16:37   Link #117
Snubben_Pierre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatami
there is only one from leaf in akatsuki yondaime is dead we dont know last kun. tobi is a mystery still...and as you said it oro is ex and also from sound =P
there are 2 if you would include the ex member.. oro .. because he is leaf.. even though he is sound now doesnt make any diffrence, he graduated as a nin i konoha so he will always be an ex konoha nin.. ^^,

so there are 2 with a possibilty of 3 more, but i dont believe yondaime is the leader of akatsuki because he is dead, at least according to everything the story has told us, but whoever it is he could still be an ex konoha nin..

last kun is as tatami said we dont know, ofc a possibility..

And ofc tobi, that i believe alittle more could be obito after reading tramadrama's post because he gives a good explanation to the name thingy.. i dont believe there would ever be 5 of the akatsuki that are konoha nin though.. if there are though, it really does prove that konoha have many mighty shinobi's even though they go evil ^.^
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Old 2006-08-14, 19:17   Link #118
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s-class uchiha
Side note: Konoha is crazy! Possibly has 4-5 members/exmemebers in Akatsuki.

Itachi, Oro, Tobi, Yondaime, Last Kunoichi

(Yea Yondaime and Last kunoichi being from Konoha far far fetched, but possible nonetheless )
Yeah that why I don't want to belive it, for a country that is so friendly, they have produced 40% of Akatsuki members.

I remember that someone said that Zetzu is really Neejis father because he was doing the same things as the Byakugan.
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Old 2006-08-14, 21:11   Link #119
Yondaime-Legacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tramadrama
this case, a letter is dropped. I have my own reasons why this could be Obito. For example, O's can be generally seen as eyes. So, since Obito has only one eye, you drop one O..

oooo nice1. score for the obito=tobi theory. btw did u figure that by yourself?


And someone mentioned Yondaime's teammates. Yes they were shown only once in the anime and it was for a split second so not a lot of people noticed it.
If you want the pic here it is:
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Old 2006-08-15, 09:15   Link #120
stoic
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Yondaime Legacy... Thanks a lot man.. yeha that was the pic.. at Saru-sama Funeral.

Thanks again man... any idea who those other two are? some people were saying that one of yondaimes teammates or enemies was the leader of the akatsuki.. anyone that wasnt in konoha would have been an enemy to him... second of all... there wouldnt be anything interesting in one of his teammates being the leader.. i dont think :S..

But that uchiha madara theory and shodai-sama thing.... i think the leader may be after trying to release madara's father....

oh well.. simply speculation and a bit of hope.
yondaime is dead... and yeah they did make a grave for obito.. hmph.. it would be interesting for him to be alive though.. because then the kakashi plot would be amazing... what does he want... what does he think of his friend after how many years... how strong is he really.. he is an uchiha after all...

"lies, lies and fabrications..." - Rick James
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