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Old 2010-06-11, 23:16   Link #2261
RisArk
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If people just admit they hate Anno and they know more than the creator ever will, at least they're honest with their feelings.
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Old 2010-06-11, 23:33   Link #2262
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Hate is a form of Love. :P People tend to forget that.

Also, it's something you get used to in this fandom. Fifteen years on, and you'd think I haven't seen these kinds of reactions before? That's why I take the nerd rage in stride, though it is fairly discomfiting to see it on people who're younger than me in the hobby.
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:08   Link #2263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Ahaha, Mari. The name aside (boy did that ruin 15 years of Western EVA Fanfic tradition), a lot of us already mentioned how Mary Sue she ain't (you better update your definition young'un). Whatever problems you have with her stem from your intense love for the TV series, which will inevitably generate nerd rage from you whenever someone mentions their liking for the re-imagining that is Rebuild. It's getting cyclical already.

I'm not bothered in Mari's case, as it's just a case of perceptive dissonance -- she wasn't in the TV series, but she's in the movie that people perceive as a parallel adaptation (which should be obvious to all by now that it isn't). It's an irrational dislike at best, but I should have expected it, as the fandom at large can be irrational. I guess you're just far too young to have been around (or pretty close) to Ground Zero in the Western fandom when news of Koutetsu no Shoujo came out...

Spoiler for Stuff:


Note, this was something that was 100% pure GAINAX, and had most of the TV series staff on board to make sure it stuck closely to the TV series in terms of composition.
Like I said before:

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
The universe's rules and logical flow are literally warped for the sole purpose of making room for her character. You can't get a better definition of a Mary Sue.
Please tell me where I am wrong.
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:14   Link #2264
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Please tell me where I am wrong.
I thought a Mary Sue was an idealized authorial stand-in character...

Like if I were to write an Eva fanfic, and introduced Yot-chan, the Sixth Child, who everyone immediately respects and bows down to.

So unless you're suggesting that Mari is Anno's self-insertion character...I don't think she's a Mary Sue.
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:23   Link #2265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Please tell me where I am wrong.
Your definition of Mary Sue doesn't segue with what how a Mary Sue is nominally defined as, especially in fanfiction old and new. I'll name an infamous one in Western EVA fandom, and see what your reaction is.

D. J. Croft.
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:24   Link #2266
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I thought a Mary Sue was an idealized authorial stand-in character...

Like if I were to write an Eva fanfic, and introduced Yot-chan, the Sixth Child, who everyone immediately respects and bows down to.

So unless you're suggesting that Mari is Anno's self-insertion character...I don't think she's a Mary Sue.
From Wikipedia:

Quote:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
She is the only Evangelion pilot that seems to enjoy fighting. She exclaims "nyaah" as she fights Zeruel, the harbinger of doom? Overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms right here.

She also lacks noteworthy flaws compared to the other characters so far, and just seems to many people's wet dream of an evangelion pilot actually making full use of their piloting in a "fun" way.

Anno clearly favors her a lot because of what I said in my previous post.

And I don't have a general gauge on the entire Evangelion fanbase, but the large amount that are in the same camp as I, see her as pointless.

Further comments, I'll requote my previous requote of a poster

Quote:
We know almost nothing of her yet, and can't even make guesses at how she will contribute to Rebuild as a whole in the future, but i honestly fear that she represents a paradigm shift towards "Fun with biomechs" from "Gritty inter-Apocalyptic tragedy". And Rebuild or not, happier Anno or not, in my mind, the latter is the only way for Eva to really work. Otherwise, it's just Gurren Lagann/Mazinger Z/<insert> with different giant robots.
Which leads many people to hate her just like many hate other comparable Mary Sues.
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:28   Link #2267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Which leads many people to hate her just like many hate other comparable Mary Sues.
Ahahaha. Overgeneralizing much?

Practical experience in fanfiction shows me that, if anything, Mari is not a Mary Sue (self-inserts and Mary Sues in general seem to be a Western concept, as I sure as heck don't see them in non-hentai Japanese doujin). If anything, she's a parody of one, given her rather poor track record -- she hasn't gotten Shinji to fall in love with her, hasn't treated Asuka and Rei to a hot lesbian threesome (trust me, it happens), hasn't curb-stomped the Angels (as in, taken them out effortlessly without a scratch), nor does she have everyone else worshiping her like ADAM's gift to humanity. :P

The term that I THINK you're looking for is The Wesley, and even then we can't say that for sure, as she's only been in one movie, so we can't even be sure if Anno really favors her as some people are reading in his interview (which I couldn't see myself).

If she does even half of what I mentioned above, then we can agree that she's a Mary Sue.

Rather, I think she's closer to EVA's version of Golden Lion Shiki: an old concept (or a reworking of one) that was introduced because opportunity (the movies) presented itself to the creator. Hmm, now where did I put those old concept drawings for the series.
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:41   Link #2268
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Ahahaha. Overgeneralizing much?

Practical experience in fanfiction shows me that, if anything, Mari is not a Mary Sue. If anything, she's a parody of one, given her rather poor track record -- she hasn't gotten Shinji to fall in love with her, hasn't curb-stomped the Angels (as in, taken them out effortlessly without a scratch), nor does she have everyone else worshiping her like ADAM's gift to humanity. :P

Rather, I think she's closer to EVA's version of Golden Lion Shiki: an old concept (or a reworking of one) that was introduced because opportunity (the movies) presented itself to the creator.
If she's a parody, I don't yet see the parody. And I don't really see her as a failure... She is able to do pretty unbelievably stuff as a pilot... Apparently she could go berserk willingly too... Which, is pretty unbelievable, especially considering that this character didn't even originally belong the Eva universe. She is only second to Shinji in piloting abilities.

Now perhaps she didn't get Shinji to fall in love with her... But apparently she became his grand motivator in the battle agianst Zeruel... (DAMNIT THEY TOOK OUT KAJI'S SPEECH ), so I can definitely see Shinji for whatever reason taking a liking to her (Though perhaps not in the same way as he does Asuka/Misato/Rei before finding out she is a clone).

As for everyone worshiping her, well in this case our Sue character isn't known to the general characters yet so it's not really all that valid of a point (Plus this isn't the type of series where characters fawn over each other as if they were school girls in a harem show).

EDIT: I don't think she's a Wesley character. I'm bent on applying the definition of Mary Sue to Mari unless you can sufficiently explain to me otherwise
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:49   Link #2269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
From Wikipedia:



She is the only Evangelion pilot that seems to enjoy fighting. She exclaims "nyaah" as she fights Zeruel, the harbinger of doom? Overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms right here.

She also lacks noteworthy flaws compared to the other characters so far, and just seems to many people's wet dream of an evangelion pilot actually making full use of their piloting in a "fun" way.

Anno clearly favors her a lot because of what I said in my previous post.

And I don't have a general gauge on the entire Evangelion fanbase, but the large amount that are in the same camp as I, see her as pointless.

Further comments, I'll requote my previous requote of a poster



Which leads many people to hate her just like many hate other comparable Mary Sues.
Well, the Wikipedia article goes on to say,

Quote:
Today "Mary Sue" carries a connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion (the writing of oneself into a fictional story). True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author.
Which backs up my point.

But still, that's not really the issue. The issue (for me, at least) that pretty much EVERYONE in EVERY anime is "idealized" in some way, or is a "wish fulfillment" character (yes, even Shinji in the TV series). As such, the term becomes meaningless.

And I dunno...most of the people I've talked to like Mari. It's hard to say if she's pointless yet or not, since she only had three scenes in the movie. Why is she in Tokyo-3? Who sent her? Why did she have to sneak in? Why did she know about "The Beast"? If these questions don't play out in the next movie, then yes, I'll agree that she's pointless. But the story's not done yet.

Look at it this way...in episode 8 of the original series, Kaji delivers Adam to Gendo. That scene is not really connected to the preceding scenes, nor it is referred to in the next few episodes. By episode 10, were you complaining that that scene was pointless? Or did you figure that it was the start of a plot thread that would be picked up later in the series?
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Old 2010-06-12, 02:53   Link #2270
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Well, the Wikipedia article goes on to say,

Which backs up my point.

But still, that's not really the issue. The issue (for me, at least) that pretty much EVERYONE in EVERY anime is "idealized" in some way, or is a "wish fulfillment" character (yes, even Shinji in the TV series). As such, the term becomes meaningless.

And I dunno...most of the people I've talked to like Mari. It's hard to say if she's pointless yet or not, since she only had three scenes in the movie. Why is she in Tokyo-3? Who sent her? Why did she have to sneak in? Why did she know about "The Beast"? If these questions don't play out in the next movie, then yes, I'll agree that she's pointless. But the story's not done yet.

Look at it this way...in episode 8 of the original series, Kaji delivers Adam to Gendo. That scene is not really connected to the preceding scenes, nor it is referred to in the next few episodes. By episode 10, were you complaining that that scene was pointless? Or did you figure that it was the start of a plot thread that would be picked up later in the series?
Fair enough. But my other criticisms of her (My reasons for disliking her in general) are still there. I really hope there will be some sort of saving grace in the next movie regarding her character, something that's actually pretty relevant to the Evangelion universe. Then some of my burning hatred of her will be lifted.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:02   Link #2271
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't think she's a Wesley character. I'm bent on applying the definition of Mary Sue to Mari unless you can sufficiently explain to me otherwise
Wow, it just means you haven't been exposed to... bad fanfiction in the EVA fandom. Ever, if you're grinning like that. :P

In the early days, before 'ground rules' were even agreed upon, Mary Sues in EVA fanfiction were RAMPANT. Second only to self-inserts, actually. My experience first as a member of EFML, the old Darkscribes, in Evafics.org, then as caretaker of Asuka's Notebook and... Well, inasmuch as I wasn't that a good writer myself in those days, I didn't do self-inserts or Mary Sues. It was just, wrong.

Hmm, I digressed a bit. Suffice to say that, if you're familiar with Shinji and Warhammer 40k, the feats of UNIVERSE BREAKING that Shinji does in that Story is a good barometer of what Mary Sues have been seen doing in EVA fiction on and off in the past decade and a half -- which Mari, I have to say, hasn't even done anything close. She's gotten her arse kicked, twice, in what I might add was not a curb-stomp; in fact it was the opposite, as SHE was the one stomped thoroughly by Zeruel.

The only aspect about her that, really, could be said to be vaguely Mary Sue-ish is the 'plans within plans' comment she had, but that's it. Everything else is still plausible within the context of the movies -- even her usage of Unit-02 and the Beast Mode (which that little quip by Ritsuko alludes to be an actual in-built feature this time around).
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:03   Link #2272
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Fair enough. But my other criticisms of her (My reasons for disliking her in general) are still there. I really hope there will be some sort of saving grace in the next movie regarding her character, something that's actually pretty relevant to the Evangelion universe. Then some of my burning hatred of her will be lifted.
No, I can definitely see where you're coming from and why you dislike her. New character pops in and attempts to steal the show from the established characters...that's ALWAYS a recipe for a split fandom. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your milage may vary.

To be REALLY honest, the only thing about your post that bugs me is that the term "Mary Sue" gets bandied about SO much that I find it really, really annoying.

Hanging out in Macross discussions (which are my home base, so to speak), you have Sheryl fans calling Ranka a "Mary Sue." You have Ranka fans calling Sheryl a "Mary Sue." You have Alto haters calling him a "Gary Stu."

After a while, it seems like it simply means "A character who I don't like but who is successful in their goals."

But I think it's still a useful term, if used in its original context: a fanfic character who is an idealized authorial proxy.

Simply put, I don't like seeing any good, useful, specific term becoming overgeneralized, mushy, and meaningless.

It's probably already a lost battle, but there ya go.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:10   Link #2273
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No, I can definitely see where you're coming from and why you dislike her. New character pops in and attempts to steal the show from the established characters...that's ALWAYS a recipe for a split fandom. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your milage may vary.

To be REALLY honest, the only thing about your post that bugs me is that the term "Mary Sue" gets bandied about SO much that I find it really, really annoying.

Hanging out in Macross discussions (which are my home base, so to speak), you have Sheryl fans calling Ranka a "Mary Sue." You have Ranka fans calling Sheryl a "Mary Sue." You have Alto haters calling him a "Gary Stu."

After a while, it seems like it simply means "A character who I don't like but who is successful in their goals."

But I think it's still a useful term, if used in its original context: a fanfic character who is an idealized authorial proxy.

Simply put, I don't like seeing any good, useful, specific term becoming overgeneralized, mushy, and meaningless.

It's probably already a lost battle, but there ya go.
Alright, I can definitely see where you are coming from as well .

I'm not one to often throw around any term like Mary Sue often... And yes, perhaps I am stretching it "a bit" to call Mari a Sue... But I really don't think she's too far off from one.

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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Wow, it just means you haven't been exposed to... bad fanfiction in the EVA fandom. Ever, if you're grinning like that. :P

In the early days, before 'ground rules' were even agreed upon, Mary Sues in EVA fanfiction were RAMPANT. Second only to self-inserts, actually. My experience first as a member of EFML, the old Darkscribes, in Evafics.org, then as caretaker of Asuka's Notebook and... Well, inasmuch as I wasn't that a good writer myself in those days, I didn't do self-inserts. It was just, wrong.

Hmm, I digressed a bit. Suffice to say that, if you're familiar with Shinji and Warhammer 40k, the feats of UNIVERSE BREAKING that Shinji does in that Story is a good barometer of what has been seen in EVA fiction on and off in the past decade and a half -- which Mari, I have to say, hasn't even done anything close.

The only aspect about her that, really, could be said to be vaguely Mary Sue-ish is the 'plans within plans' comment she had, but that's it. Everything else is still plausible within the context of the movies -- even her usage of Unit-02 and the Beast Mode (which that little quip by Ritsuko alludes to be an actual in-built feature this time around).
Well of course, if I go on to try to even compare Mari to any of the other Evangelion monstrosities created over the years... She is nowhere even close to that. But at least, I could ignore those characters, while Anno created this character himself. So any of her actions are going to be put under a microscope by the nerd I am.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:15   Link #2274
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You just hate Mari because shes stolen Asuka's thunder; her role as the cool badass chick. Its that simple. Asuka fanboy.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:21   Link #2275
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You just hate Mari because shes stolen Asuka's thunder; her role as the cool badass chick. Its that simple. Asuka fanboy.
Hey, I'm a total Asuka fanboy, and I love Mari!
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:25   Link #2276
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Yot-chan said it well. Your use of Mary Sue does not segue with what old-timers know of Mary Sues.

Also pray tell, if you're as geeky as you think you are, did you never ever think of this when you saw Mari?

Spoiler for ^__^:


Yes, old timers find many reasons to find Mari amusing and likeable.

And, if you didn't know, I'm a massive MASSIVE Asuka fan (*cough*Asuka's Notebook*cough*). And I love Mari too.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:28   Link #2277
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I shall add that I've always found Asuka to be too much of a tsundere bitch. And yes, she was quite a tsundere in the original show. The only different is that while to took many episodes to see that in the show, in 2.0 you see her tsundere quickly simply because of time constants.

Yes, while a part of me was in shocked horror when Asuka looked like she died (I have an innate love of tsunderes) another part of me enjoyed the bitch getting put in her place....that being six feet under.

Oh yes, I went there.


Now that Rei has actual emotions instead of being a drone, I can see why she quite popular in Japan. Her rare smile is so moe and heartwarming.

I like Mari because she brings an air of mystery to the movie since unlike the other character, we know nothing about her inner demons and her motives nor do we have any clue what her fate at the end of the story will be. This is so wonderful since it gets me excited once again for Eva unlike many other movie compilations of animes that are pointless since I already know what will happen.

Plus, how can you not love ZA BEASTO! I want a poster of that. At least a desktop wallpaper.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:31   Link #2278
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Quote:
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Now that Rei has actual emotions instead of being a drone, I can see why she quite popular in Japan. Her rare smile is so moe and heartwarming.
She was ALWAYS popular in Japan though, in the same way Asuka was wildly popular in the Western fandom.

bigdeath: Some of the more crackpot theories on both sides of the Pacific peg her as a refugee from Daitenroku or Diebuster. The saner of us think she's a pawn for one of the three powers(SEELE, NERV, UNEF), but is aware she's a pawn and is just enjoying herself as much as she can.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:35   Link #2279
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I shall add that I've always found Asuka to be too much of a tsundere bitch. And yes, she was quite a tsundere in the original show. The only different is that while to took many episodes to see that in the show, in 2.0 you see her tsundere quickly simply because of time constants.

Yes, while a part of me was in shocked horror when Asuka looked like she died (I have an innate love of tsunderes) another part of me enjoyed the bitch getting put in her place....that being six feet under.

Oh yes, I went there.
Ooooh, you are SO dead, man...

I dunno...nearly everyone I've talked to (in real life) about Eva lost sympathy with Asuka by the end of the TV series, but I never did...maybe I'm just weird.

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Now that Rei has actual emotions instead of being a drone, I can see why she quite popular in Japan. Her rare smile is so moe and heartwarming.
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Old 2010-06-12, 03:41   Link #2280
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I dunno...nearly everyone I've talked to (in real life) about Eva lost sympathy with Asuka by the end of the TV series, but I never did...maybe I'm just weird.
Then I'm weird as well, theeeen again my teenage years were on the darker side of gloomy, with more than a ton of societal and parental pressure (as the eldest daughter) to succeed thrown in. It's why I could empathize so much with the emotional wastelands that were the TV series characters, because I was facing similar daemons.

So, spread the gospel, sister.

Was I bothered a bit about Asuka's decreased height and bust size? Maybe a little. Was I bugged that her role is basically shared now with a new character? Heck no.
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