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Old 2010-06-26, 07:42   Link #2361
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I must congratulate you on being able to articulate what I could not in my earlier mary sue debate. Perhaps she isn't the classical definition of a Sue, but the definition has changed over the years and is used pretty broadly nowadays.
Unfortunately, that's probably true. It now seems to mean "Any character I don't like and want to get angry at the creators about."
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Old 2010-06-26, 08:15   Link #2362
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Yot-chan: I pointed out that in the post I did before yours, as one of the controversies concerning the term itself. People are using the term Mary Sue out of convenience, regardless of its intended meaning. Remember the Ranka/Sheryl shipping wars, and how nonsensical those eventually became (with members of one side calling the other of supporting a Mary Sue)?
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Old 2010-06-26, 08:50   Link #2363
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Yot-chan: I pointed out that in the post I did before yours, as one of the controversies concerning the term itself. People are using the term Mary Sue out of convenience, regardless of its intended meaning. Remember the Ranka/Sheryl shipping wars, and how nonsensical those eventually became (with members of one side calling the other of supporting a Mary Sue)?
And I was only half-joking when I said Eva-01 might be a Mary Sue, by the definition others are using here...

- Ridiculously overpowered and pretty much invincible? Yep.

- The laws of the universe bend around her? Yep (since it's stated as fact that the Evas only have five minutes of battery power...).

- "Protected" by the other characters? Yep. Gendo especially.

- A vehicle for wish-fulfillment? Of course...she's a GIANT FRICKIN' ROBOT, after all. Wish-fulfillment is what giant robots are MADE OF.

- The author's "darling"? Yep...can anyone doubt that Anno is fond of Eva-01?

So yeah...Eva-01 is a Mary Sue. Unless we want to go back to a stricter definition of the term.
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Old 2010-06-26, 09:25   Link #2364
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Granted Mari has raised hackles of some viewers, but the complaints about her are less about being a Mary Sue as per original definition, but closer to some of the issues mentioned in the Controversies section, particularly the first and third listed issues -- being a Character You Don't Like or being an Idealized Character.
If i match up my complaints against the controversies section of your post, i guess "Poorly Written" is what fits best. She's basically included to facilitate some cool fight scenes and some bouncy boobs, without adding anything to the emotional side of things. I think breaking up an already time pressed movie with a character who is so far almost totally isolated from the main cast was sort of a mistake. Whether or not that's a Mary Sue issue or not, i think it's a problem at any rate.

Granted, i'm not terribly impressed with the writing in 2.0 as a whole. I don't know how to put it well... it's too small time yet too over the top at the same time.

Talk about shady organizations and mysterious plot devices ("Key of Nebuchadnezzar") and sinister conspiracies is being thrown around like tomato at the La Tomatina festival, but so far, those mean nothing else than cool sounding names. It creates an air of mystery, and is probably a setup for stuff to be revealed in the next installments, but remember, i'm dissecting 2.0 as a standalone film. So, there is a sense of artificial tension, shallow mystery.

On the other hand, the development of the main cast, is, well.... i didn't think it was awful, but that's because i have prior emotional attachment to these characters.

Take the cooking plot: yay, the characters are reaching out, hurray, simple things in life are the best, wohoo, Rei wuvs Shinji.

But if i were a first time viewer:"Cooking? Seriously?"

I think a lot of this has to do with the character of Shinji himself: since he is a normal, but awkward teenager with daddy issues, every other character has to be adjusted to him. So, we get awkward teenager-ish "love triangles" and lot's of talk about his daddy issues. The motivations of the other characters are barely touched upon.

I knew from the start of the project that for a cinematic revision the characters would have to be painted with broader strokes, so i don't mind the loss of subtlety in their development. But contrary to what many people say, i thought that for a movie, the pacing of their development was glacial. It just didn't provide enough meat, substance in the timespan it had. Cook Cook Revolution might have been endearing for the long time fans to see, but for a cinematic experience, it's pretty... slim.

Oh well, i guess the real meat of Rebuild will be the final movie(s?).
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Old 2010-06-26, 10:26   Link #2365
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
It creates an air of mystery, and is probably a setup for stuff to be revealed in the next installments, but remember, i'm dissecting 2.0 as a standalone film.
Well, that's silly. If you look at, say, episode 8 of the Eva TV series as a standalone work, they bring in something called "Adam," and don't explain it, and two characters get introduced, but absolutely nothing is done with them.

If you look at EoE as a standalone movie, there's TONS of backstory they don't explain.

Why are you expecting Eva 2.0 to fulfill certain arbitrary requirements that have never been fulfilled by any other portion of the Eva story?
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Old 2010-06-26, 18:03   Link #2366
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
I knew from the start of the project that for a cinematic revision the characters would have to be painted with broader strokes, so i don't mind the loss of subtlety in their development. But contrary to what many people say, i thought that for a movie, the pacing of their development was glacial. It just didn't provide enough meat, substance in the timespan it had. Cook Cook Revolution might have been endearing for the long time fans to see, but for a cinematic experience, it's pretty... slim.
This really depends on how you interpret it. If we take the same old model of the characters given to us from the original Evangelion, the developments seem unnatural, and very fast.

On the other hand, if we truly take the characters given as completely new then this becomes a very different story indeed. From this point of view, the character developments could almost seem glacial since these "new" characters were already not too far from the characters we saw in this movie.

Part of the problem is only a few select characters were even chosen to be given any real serious development at all. Most of the original Evangelion cast was shafted by Anno, which I can understand since this is a movie format (Though Misato should still be given more development than she got...)
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Old 2010-06-26, 21:34   Link #2367
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Maybe I'm more understanding of it because I experienced the exact same thing with Macross DYRL. A good most of the characters were shafted save for the 3 main characters and possibly Fokker in character development, but the core focus of the show was vitally kept.

I'm not one to complain about say Ritsuko's lack of screentime/importance compared to the series if they make it so she stays a support character. If they bring up her as the instigator of showing Rei clones and plotting against Gendo suddenly, then I would complain but if they regulate her development on a constant background pace, then I don't see a problem.

This is all that comes with a movie format, which is what I keep in mind.
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Old 2010-06-26, 23:48   Link #2368
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Why are you expecting Eva 2.0 to fulfill certain arbitrary requirements that have never been fulfilled by any other portion of the Eva story?
Because it's part of a series that relates an Evangelion-derived story in a a new way in a new medium. The plot should be spread out more evenly, instead of getting infodumps in the last stretch like in the series. 3.0 is at a serious risk of becoming an exposition marathon.

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Most of the original Evangelion cast was shafted by Anno, which I can understand since this is a movie format
That's another problem i have with the movie. Some characters were just not shafted enough. The main offenders are Touji and Kensuke. Relative to the fact that they added nothing to anything at all, the screentime they got is just unholy. I guess 2.0 is the last we seen of them, but they were really given too much face time in this movie.

Asuka is a strange case. If the bulk of her role was over and done with in 2.0, she got too much screentime. If they intend to really go with her somewhere in the future movies, then it's too little.
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Old 2010-06-27, 06:52   Link #2369
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
Because it's part of a series that relates an Evangelion-derived story in a a new way in a new medium. The plot should be spread out more evenly, instead of getting infodumps in the last stretch like in the series. 3.0 is at a serious risk of becoming an exposition marathon.
But it's not a new medium...Eva has had theatrical movies before...movies that REQUIRED the viewer to be pretty darn familiar with the TV series before watching them (and had a hell of a lot of exposition, as well). Did you have a problem with it then?
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Old 2010-06-27, 06:57   Link #2370
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
Asuka is a strange case. If the bulk of her role was over and done with in 2.0, she got too much screentime. If they intend to really go with her somewhere in the future movies, then it's too little.
I'm sorry, but how the heck can you tell this to be the case when you haven't the foggiest idea what they're going to do in the next movies? Are you clairvoyant or something?
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Old 2010-06-27, 08:21   Link #2371
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He's secretly holding Anno hostage? :P

Yeah, I'm seeing many more arguments to come until the Rebuild cycle is completed.
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Old 2010-06-27, 09:29   Link #2372
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
But it's not a new medium...Eva has had theatrical movies before...movies that REQUIRED the viewer to be pretty darn familiar with the TV series before watching them
You said it yourself: the previous movies had a TV series preceding them. The Rebuild films don't. Everything that Rebuild is, is (supposedly) made up of these movies. They should be able to work on their own, without relying on the series or any other work outside of the continuity they represent (in b4 "BUT IT'S A SEQUEL!").

So, in that sense, it's a change of medium: from TV series with movies (well, one movie, Death is just recap, and Rebirth is half a movie ) to a movie tetralogy.

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I'm sorry, but how the heck can you tell this to be the case when you haven't the foggiest idea what they're going to do in the next movies? Are you clairvoyant or something?
Why yes. The winning lottery numbers for next week are...

Eh, maybe i didn't put it the way i wanted to: if they want to use her to a greater extent in the future movies, then i guess they will use the Bardiel incident as some great, character reshaping event, which might be cool, but it i would have preferred it to be more organic (the TV series at least allowed her to breathe before Epsiode 22).

And i think they have to reshape her character, if they still plan on giving her a role: being a genderswapped expy of Captain Harlock in the middle of the Apocalyptic endgame and "Anta baka?!" just don't mesh well, IMHO.
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Old 2010-06-27, 11:37   Link #2373
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That's another problem i have with the movie. Some characters were just not shafted enough. The main offenders are Touji and Kensuke. Relative to the fact that they added nothing to anything at all, the screentime they got is just unholy. I guess 2.0 is the last we seen of them, but they were really given too much face time in this movie.

Asuka is a strange case. If the bulk of her role was over and done with in 2.0, she got too much screentime. If they intend to really go with her somewhere in the future movies, then it's too little.
Oh I agree. I did say much earlier that it wasn't the movie format that exactly bothered me by the lack of character development for certain characters, it was the lack of effort to do anything about it that really irked me in the end.

I at least thought going in that Touji might be given a more integral role and that's why he was getting so much screen time, but alas he did not.

I find it funny, because in 1.0 the importance of those friends to Shinji were pretty much eliminated save for Shinji getting slugged in the face. Even these side characters who are actually getting more total screen time (At least % wise) are getting shafted.

It's an all around failure and laziness on part of Anno. Again, these other characters have ample opportunity for more development (Like Ritsuko, Misato, Kaji), but it better be natural. Asuka is already beyond being saved in this work, her character is destroyed pretty much for good. Shinji is still relatively in tact. And Rei has some serious issues that need ironing out personally, but at least she wasn't COMPLETELY destroyed like Asuka.
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Old 2010-06-27, 13:54   Link #2374
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Touji and Kensuke had adequate screen time I say since they represented Shinji's civillian life, their scenes were virtually all the fun parts of what I call Eva's "golden eps" put together. So they're not part of Nerv or Seeles master plan....who said they had to be ?

Since THIRD IMPACT was hinted at the end of the movie i.e. shit-hits-the-fan...will we really have opportunities to see carelessy happy scenes...I think not.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:42   Link #2375
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Shinji is still relatively in tact. And Rei has some serious issues that need ironing out personally, but at least she wasn't COMPLETELY destroyed like Asuka.
From this quip, i get the impression that you would only be satisfied if the characters were 100% identical to their former incarnations. I'm more flexible than that, but i would like things in Rebuild to end up compelling on their own

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Touji and Kensuke had adequate screen time I say since they represented Shinji's civillian life
Great. Show them smiling at each other and giving their super secret handshake. 30 seconds tops. We have the same effect, and saved screentime.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:51   Link #2376
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From this quip, i get the impression that you would only be satisfied if the characters were 100% identical to their former incarnations. I'm more flexible than that, but i would like things in Rebuild to end up compelling on their own
Well lets say, I wouldn't mind the characters making different decisions in given situations that will affect how they end up in certain parts of the story...

But to warp the characters we know and love this much... Where if they weren't drawn as the characters we know and love, they'd just be new characters injected into the Evangelion universe, is just a little much for me.

It is a problem, because I was already able to connect so well with the original Evangelion characters.
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Old 2010-06-27, 16:02   Link #2377
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But to warp the characters we know and love this much... Where if they weren't drawn as the characters we know and love, they'd just be new characters injected into the Evangelion universe, is just a little much for me.

It is a problem, because I was already able to connect so well with the original Evangelion characters.
Its more like its a problem to yourself because you cannot relate to the context of Rebuild and thus cannot connect to characters now.

You use 'we', but I'm very sure 'we', do not represent many of us.

Even in this thread itself, Asuka fans have already expressed that we didn't feel bad for Asuka and can accept Mari. We're also looking forward to Asuka's return with the eyepatch.
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:12   Link #2378
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Its more like its a problem to yourself because you cannot relate to the context of Rebuild and thus cannot connect to characters now.

You use 'we', but I'm very sure 'we', do not represent many of us.

Even in this thread itself, Asuka fans have already expressed that we didn't feel bad for Asuka and can accept Mari. We're also looking forward to Asuka's return with the eyepatch.
Hmm. I used "we" because I'm sure we pretty much all liked the original Evangelion? If not I'm not sure why any of you would be here. Other than that I used "I." Please reread the way I worded my post.

Anyhow, I'm not going to debate how I phrase my sentences. You understand my sentiments and I understand yours, lets discuss that rather than the meaningless semantics of the conversation at hand.

And if you like this Asuka better, then fine. I like the old Asuka better. If you like both Asuka from NGE and rebuild just the same, then that's also fine.

In the end, I still think the old Asuka has far more depth (thus far), personality, and flare than this new Asuka. One thing the Asuka in Rebuild clearly failed to do that the old Asuka was able to do in NGE was inject more excitement, and flare into the series. She gave it more life, stirred the characters around (Particularly Shinji), and added more drama (As did Kaji).

Perhaps this flare was supposed to be replaced by good ol' Mari, but that's a totally different sort of flare that just feels completely out of place in the Evangelion universe, but I've already gone enough about her and you can reread my earlier posts to find my sentiments on that character.
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:13   Link #2379
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But to warp the characters we know and love this much... Where if they weren't drawn as the characters we know and love, they'd just be new characters injected into the Evangelion universe, is just a little much for me.
You need to visit more fanbases. Every single adaptation/alternate universe movie does this. Eureka 7, SDF Macross, etc. Characters have to change and be skimmed down to adapt the context of the new story.

What did Asuka do in 2.0? She showed why she's Captain-rank and an ace by single-handily beating an Angel. She got taught a lesson that teamwork is far more important in the next Angel. She shows her newfound respect by taking over the testing for Unit-03, as piloting is her strongest point and the most she can contribute.

Just because the series used Touji instead of Asuka, doesn't mean it makes far sense for Asuka to be the pilot over him. I would call Eva a lack of effort if it just suddenly stopped at episode 19 for 2 years, too.
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:29   Link #2380
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You said it yourself: the previous movies had a TV series preceding them. The Rebuild films don't. Everything that Rebuild is, is (supposedly) made up of these movies. They should be able to work on their own, without relying on the series or any other work outside of the continuity they represent (in b4 "BUT IT'S A SEQUEL!").

So, in that sense, it's a change of medium: from TV series with movies (well, one movie, Death is just recap, and Rebirth is half a movie ) to a movie tetralogy.
Yeah...a movie trilogy that doesn't REQUIRE you to have seen the series, but certainly seems to acting as though you have.

It DOES rely on people's knowledge of the series, it HAS to. It may be a different version of the story, but it still is based on the first version.
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