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Old 2010-07-01, 11:03   Link #2401
Waking_Dreamer
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Yeah, and its not even that his character is a little different, its the same character from NGE, just that its Shinji seen at his best.

Shinji in ep 18 is a Shinji on one end of the spectrum where as the one in ep 23 and EOE are on the other end. As Ive already said Rebuild 2.0 Shinji is consistent with ep 18 Shinji and Im not sure why people would want EOE Shinji in this movie when he simple hasnt had the experience to warrant such actions (or inactions).

Afterall experience is what defines us no...?
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Old 2010-07-01, 12:17   Link #2402
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^ If you look hard enough, you can find EoE-ish vibes in the Shinji of 2.0, but if i'm right, some people here are afraid that his further development won't be like that of the Shinji they know.

Which is hilarious when you consider that a new ending was the main promise of this whole bloody affair.
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Old 2010-07-01, 12:38   Link #2403
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^ Well if EOE-ish vibes can be seen it only reinforces that Shinji here and in the series is not a different character but virtually the same one in differing circumstances.

I am looking forward to a different ending or one from a different perspective at least, and Im sure theres plenty of time for Anno to mind/emotionally rape Shinji in the next two installments.

For now, let the poor boy have some control and happiness.....
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Old 2010-07-01, 13:51   Link #2404
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My whole argument, my whole qualm about this Shinji is not that he's a Shinji that simply made different decisions, but that this is a different Shinji who made these different decisions. Again, he's not THAT different, but significantly different enough such that it bothers me.

Again, a Shinji who doesn't fully experience the hedgehog's dilemma is not the same Shinji. There was no evidence in Rebuild 2.0 that suggested that he was able to break out of that.
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Old 2010-07-01, 16:27   Link #2405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer View Post
For now, let the poor boy have some control
That he didn't have. At all. Third Impact getting on, Gendo was going "Keikaku doori" while Rei merged with Unit-01, and finally, he got Kaworu-owned from above.

And lets not forget that Yui being inside Eva-01 was confirmed, so it's pretty likely that she assisted him during Eva-01's God Mode rage, and possibly throughout his whole piloting carrier.

Hell, if we consider that Shinji thought he was doing something entirely of his own accord, he actually had less control than in the series.
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Old 2010-07-01, 20:14   Link #2406
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Shinji had no control over almost anything, except at the end. Instead of revolting against the entire world with no clear purpose in his mind as in EoE, he has a real one: Rei. That alone changes everything.
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Old 2010-07-03, 11:10   Link #2407
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
My whole argument, my whole qualm about this Shinji is not that he's a Shinji that simply made different decisions, but that this is a different Shinji who made these different decisions. Again, he's not THAT different, but significantly different enough such that it bothers me.

Again, a Shinji who doesn't fully experience the hedgehog's dilemma is not the same Shinji. There was no evidence in Rebuild 2.0 that suggested that he was able to break out of that.
If they kept Shinji the same then what would be the point of Rebuild. We've already seen what happens to that Shinji so why bother rehashing it?
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Old 2010-07-03, 11:21   Link #2408
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If they kept Shinji the same then what would be the point of Rebuild. We've already seen what happens to that Shinji so why bother rehashing it?
Then make an entirely new series and leave this one alone. Again, I don't mind if a different experience leads Shinji to make different decisions... But it has to be in character. Shinji is just so critical to Evangelion, and deforming him doesn't just change his character, but the entire series. It becomes something else entirely, in which case, why call this Evangelion?
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Old 2010-07-03, 11:27   Link #2409
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I think your being unreasonably inflexible, if your going to be that close minded then nothing rebuild could have done would have been worth it. If they change the characters its not eva anymore and if they kept them the same then rebuild is just a cash cow. In other words, you'd prefer nothing to ever be done with Eva ever again since its already perfect. To me, thats no fun at all.

Hmm, I haven't watch 2.0 in a short while, think I'll go watch it again.
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Old 2010-07-03, 11:35   Link #2410
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Then make an entirely new series and leave this one alone. Again, I don't mind if a different experience leads Shinji to make different decisions... But it has to be in character. Shinji is just so critical to Evangelion, and deforming him doesn't just change his character, but the entire series. It becomes something else entirely, in which case, why call this Evangelion?
Why is it so out of character? In the TV show when Gendo asked, "Why are you here?" and Shinji answered, "I'm the pilot of Unit 1! Shinji Ikari!" was that a weak moment? was that Shinji avoiding others and acting negatively?

I don't really see how him wanting to rescue Rei is terribly different than the character we saw in the TV series in the analogous moment.
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Old 2010-07-03, 12:53   Link #2411
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Why is it so out of character? In the TV show when Gendo asked, "Why are you here?" and Shinji answered, "I'm the pilot of Unit 1! Shinji Ikari!" was that a weak moment? was that Shinji avoiding others and acting negatively?

I don't really see how him wanting to rescue Rei is terribly different than the character we saw in the TV series in the analogous moment.
I've explained this over and over again... (Just look at the previous page of posts). If this isn't enough for you, then there is little to discuss anymore.
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Old 2010-07-03, 13:47   Link #2412
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Doting so much on Rei isn't really out of character for Shinji. Is just a more romantic, fluffier version of the near monomaniac fixation he displayed for Kaworu in the series.
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Old 2010-07-03, 16:12   Link #2413
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I've explained this over and over again... (Just look at the previous page of posts). If this isn't enough for you, then there is little to discuss anymore.
So then you view the hedgehog's dilemma as one of the defining characteristics of Shinji? Because I think he manages to get over it quite a bit when he becomes friends with Touji and Kensuke. By episode 19, it's not much of an issue for him.
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Old 2010-07-03, 16:48   Link #2414
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Doting so much on Rei isn't really out of character for Shinji. Is just a more romantic, fluffier version of the near monomaniac fixation he displayed for Kaworu in the series.
Yep, there really aren't that many choices lying around.
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Old 2010-07-03, 20:05   Link #2415
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*snips*
And you noticed that of Reckoner just now?

To be fair to him though, the hard-line, mono-conservative close-minded anti-mainstream megafanboi aspect of the fandom shares his views -- You can nominally find examples of the ilk in a forum I already mentioned. :P.

Also, it's expected, given how over-analyzed the franchise was down to its minutiae for more than a decade and a half -- there will always be a small subset who prefer and think that the first iteration is perfect, and anything else a slap to the face of the original.
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Old 2010-07-03, 22:50   Link #2416
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Well even at the time of the fandom, I dont think I would have ever considered the series perfect, actually far from it...there was just as much as flaws as you could find in any other series...doesnt mean i didnt like it though.
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Old 2010-07-03, 23:38   Link #2417
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Doting so much on Rei isn't really out of character for Shinji. Is just a more romantic, fluffier version of the near monomaniac fixation he displayed for Kaworu in the series.
Well he didn't throw away the world for Kaworu though he could have and most likely thought about it.

Anyhow, the situation is still very different because Rei didn't "betray" Shinji like Kaworu did. Kaworu made Shinji feel like getting close to people would just hurt him, like he always feared as Kaworu actually managed to get close to Shinji (Although it would've been nice had they introduced him a little earlier so the development would not have seemed so quick).

Maybe, this is why he made a different choice in the end. But, although Shinji has always felt comfortable with Rei (Well as long as he doesn't find out the secret of the dummy plug that is), I never got the sense that she lifted off his hedgehog dilemma like Kaworu managed to do (albeit very quickly) since she was always relatively cold and emotionless... Though it is true that she showed much more emotion in this iteration, she did not quite know very well how to express it or understand it.

Problem this gets into changes in the character of Rei, which is another whole basket of worms. Her developments, with the silly desire to cook for Shinji and setup a father/son date seemed very forced into the story and out of place. It was suddenly like jumping into some sort of harem show. But whatever, this isn't exactly my point.

I'm supposed to believe that Shinji is going to recover from his deep psychological problem, that we got to see in the original Evangelion, just because a girl decided that she wanted to setup a date with father/son for him. She isn't the only one in the story who ever tried to do something nice for him or care for him in some way. And unlike Kaworu she never really showed "love" or affection for him, didn't really hear out his feelings and understand him. Nothing. BTW, this Shinji and NGE Shinji are the same right?

Then again, this Shinji has been shown to be much more open or willing to find connection with other people it seems in Rebuild. An example is him making lunch for Rei. But then this suggests that Shinji is already a different character, hence hedgehog's dilemma really isn't such a difficult problem and a big focal point in Evangelion is already taken away, essentially changing the series. And as I said before, this shows that Shinji is a DIFFERENT character.

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So then you view the hedgehog's dilemma as one of the defining characteristics of Shinji? Because I think he manages to get over it quite a bit when he becomes friends with Touji and Kensuke. By episode 19, it's not much of an issue for him.
He started to make somewhat of a breakthrough, but crashed extremely hard as we saw in the original Evangelion. However, he didn't make it even half as far as Rebuild's portrayal of Shinji. In fact, Rebuild almost trivializes the hedge hog's dilemma, which saddens me.

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And you noticed that of Reckoner just now?

To be fair to him though, the hard-line, mono-conservative close-minded anti-mainstream megafanboi aspect of the fandom shares his views -- You can nominally find examples of the ilk in a forum I already mentioned. :P.

Also, it's expected, given how over-analyzed the franchise was down to its minutiae for more than a decade and a half -- there will always be a small subset who prefer and think that the first iteration is perfect, and anything else a slap to the face of the original.
Oh yes. Now time to generalize me into this group of people. I realize that I am being very hard on Rebuild, but please let me remind you, overall I still enjoyed it as a form of entertainment. This cannot be said by those people who you describe that could not in such movies and find nothing to be happy about overall.

Everything I criticize about it is only what I think could have done better or be kept more consistent with the series (As I wouldn't of liked the series if the enjoyable elements of it were not there right?). For example, I've read fanfictions on Evangelion, but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. However, I will not go on to say that the fanfiction is better because the writing simply isn't as good or as meaningful (Generalizing of course, perhaps there is some literary genius out there). That's much how I view Rebuild currently. Unless the next movies do anything to change my opinion, that's how it will be.

Oh and haven't I admitted the original had flaws? An example is much of the nonsensical Christian symbolism that in the end detracts from the story.
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Old 2010-07-04, 00:07   Link #2418
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Well he didn't throw away the world for Kaworu though he could have and most likely thought about it.
He threw it away, in a passive manner.

Quote:
Anyhow, the situation is still very different because Rei didn't "betray" Shinji like Kaworu did.
Oh please, we are not even at that point with their relationship. The point i was trying to make is that pushing all his emotional needs onto a single person, in this case, Rei, leaves him in an extremely vulnerable position. Should something happen to Rei, or should he learn that she's not quite what she seems to be (*hint**hint*), then he might crash emotionally like he did after Kaworu turned out to be an Angel

Quote:
In fact, Rebuild almost trivializes the hedge hog's dilemma, which saddens me.
I think it just gave another take on it. In 2.0, up till the Bardiel incident, things were so nicey-nice, all that was missing was Bambi jumping out of somewhere and licking Shinji's hand. So it's the getting closer part of the dilemma. But then he got hurt by Gendo, and it was all "Baaaw, i don't want any more of this horrible world!". So, closing off himself again. Then the opportunity presented itself to get obsessive over Rei, and he took it.
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Old 2010-07-04, 00:10   Link #2419
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Also, it's expected, given how over-analyzed the franchise was down to its minutiae for more than a decade and a half -- there will always be a small subset who prefer and think that the first iteration is perfect, and anything else a slap to the face of the original.
It's not just the fact that it changes Shinji, it's the fact that it changes the whole message of the series. Anno is going from an existentialist, Sartrean view of the world, almost literally stating "Hell is other people" in End of Evangelion, to something completely different. Instead of shutting himself up within his own mind, sending everyone to hell and wishing a brighter present for himself, Shinji is now behaving more closely to a standard epic mecha shounen. He's dismissing the whole reason why NGE was so revolutionary in the first place, which was a virtual slap to the minds of the people who had grown up seeing the standard "I can take the whole world, I was born a hero!" epic shounen. Anyone who fails to understand this is missing the immense value the series has, and why it has made such an impact (it's neither the boobs nor the giant robots).

Granted, we are still missing the conclusion. Anything can happen -- but I've got the feeling Anno has backed down on his earlier confronting ideas.

Quote:
The point i was trying to make is that pushing all his emotional needs onto a single person, in this case, Rei, leaves him in an extremely vulnerable position.
Given the nature of Rei's completely passive character I doubt anything of the sort will happen from Rei herself, which would be the precondition to bringing the things level with the original series. Outsider intervention won't be the same.

EDIT: I just thought about it some and I can see your point. It still won't be a completely voluntary rejection from Rei, though, or at least I can't see it that way.
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Old 2010-07-04, 01:09   Link #2420
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I am loathe - I can hardly overstate just how much - to wade into this debate. I consider myself a moderate on Eva - a traditionalist who considers the original the most important anime ever made but also recognizes its flaws. However, I think it's relevant to point out that Anno was clinically depressed and near suicidal at times when writing the TV series. He's reportedly much less so now. Given that Eva - and especially Shinji - is as personal a reflection of its creator as any series, isn't it natural that the Rebuild would reflect his current - i.e less angry, young and angsty - view of the world?

Anno wrote this series as a kind of psychotherapy - airing his mental dirty laundry for the world to see. Once the genie was out of the bottle he surrendered control of the ideas - others, like Sadamoto, put their stamp on it and subtly (sometimes obviously) changed the story and characters to reflect their vision (often brilliantly, I might add). Now, Anno is finally given the chance to do another "canon" version of the story, once against subject to his creative control - obsessively so to the point where he's even tried to freeze out Gainax. Again, isn't it only natural that Anno would, given his baby back again, try and release something that reflected the Anno of 2010 vintage?
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