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Old 2010-07-04, 01:13   Link #2421
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
He threw it away, in a passive manner.
In Rebuild or EoE?

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Originally Posted by Greg88 View Post
Oh please, we are not even at that point with their relationship. The point i was trying to make is that pushing all his emotional needs onto a single person, in this case, Rei, leaves him in an extremely vulnerable position. Should something happen to Rei, or should he learn that she's not quite what she seems to be (*hint**hint*), then he might crash emotionally like he did after Kaworu turned out to be an Angel
I agree, and that is most likely what is going to probably happen in the next movie. But you are not quite understanding what I am saying. In NGE, Kaworu broke through Shinji's wall, where Shinji felt comfortable enough to become attached to him and dump his emotions on him. In Rebuild, Rei does no such thing, and Shinji VOLUNTARILY does this with Rei.

Personally I find this to be huge. Mr.Hedgehog is CHOOSING to become close with someone. Again, it appears as a slight nuance in his character, but for me it is a significant difference that again I don't appreciate (BTW Shinji isn't exactly my main complaint on Rebuild, I have much more qualms with Asuka as you can tell from signature).

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I think it just gave another take on it. In 2.0, up till the Bardiel incident, things were so nicey-nice, all that was missing was Bambi jumping out of somewhere and licking Shinji's hand. So it's the getting closer part of the dilemma. But then he got hurt by Gendo, and it was all "Baaaw, i don't want any more of this horrible world!". So, closing off himself again. Then the opportunity presented itself to get obsessive over Rei, and he took it.
Hmm. So he chose to get close with another person, where the rest of the world save perhaps Gendo and Selee is against what is happening. Feels like a shounen doesn't it? Where everyone is against the main character, but he stubbornly refuses and in epic fashion tries to save this person against all odds.

Maybe Anno is going to show how this ultimately leads to problems and shows the folly of Shonen type stories once more. Then perhaps I can give him a saving grace. At the moment though, I see a good amount of people liking this scene because "Shinji manned up." Oh brother.

Regardless... It seems like quite the awkward choice considering what I said above. I just hope Anno isn't using Evangelion in a manner that completely detracts from what the original Evangelion meant.
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Old 2010-07-04, 01:42   Link #2422
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Oh yes. Now time to generalize me into this group of people.
It's called 'tongue-in-cheek'. :P Humor the old maid taking up Creative Writing as her Master's Degree (and is currently trying to properly explicate the theme of a 400+ page novel in less than 100 words) -- as I've come to see the changes in Rebuild as an interesting study in Plot Divergence, with a creator revisiting his older, well-known work, and changing the fundamental dynamics in it to make something similar, yet at the same time wildly different from the source it was based on.

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Again, isn't it only natural that Anno would, given his baby back again, try and release something that reflected the Anno of 2010 vintage?
Some people have a hard time accepting the fact that the Anno of today is indeed different from the Anno that directed the TV series, and that the tone of Rebuild very likely reflects his newer outlook. And this isn't just the traditionalists that I so jokingly lumped Reckoner with, who decry the movies as being too mainstream in message to be even considered as part of the sprawling franchise's canon.

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I just hope Anno isn't using Evangelion in a manner that completely detracts from what the original Evangelion meant.
EVANGELION meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people, never mind Anno himself. Unfortunately, how he sees EVA now as a concept/idea might be wildly different from how he looked at it fifteen-odd years ago.
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Old 2010-07-04, 07:22   Link #2423
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EVANGELION meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people, never mind Anno himself. Unfortunately, how he sees EVA now as a concept/idea might be wildly different from how he looked at it fifteen-odd years ago.
That's been my understanding of it, ever since the project was first announced. However, some portion of fandom seems to inherently have problems with such an approach. Me? I'm still loving it (just as I love the old series), myself.

Your milleage may vary, though.

However, I feel that directly comparing the events in the newer movies to their "counterparts" in the original series is totally counterproductive. I mean, the events being slightly (or, by the second movie on, majorly) different do not imply direct comparison anymore. So, why bother?
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Old 2010-07-04, 10:21   Link #2424
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That's been my understanding of it, ever since the project was first announced. However, some portion of fandom seems to inherently have problems with such an approach. Me? I'm still loving it (just as I love the old series), myself.

Your milleage may vary, though.

However, I feel that directly comparing the events in the newer movies to their "counterparts" in the original series is totally counterproductive. I mean, the events being slightly (or, by the second movie on, majorly) different do not imply direct comparison anymore. So, why bother?
I compare, because these are supposedly the same characters. Although the one with extreme changes has her last name changed, she still looks the same, and has the same voice actress. Now, all of a sudden, they have new personalities. They are not quite the same people. Thus, I compare the characters of old and new to try and see what Anno is getting at. Each character had a little bit of their story and purpose. Now I'm trying to compare them and see the purpose of these new characters.

Some argue that the characters really are not all that different and simply made different decisions. This is the remark that I vehemently disagree with the most. But I debate about this, not because the characters are just different, but because the meaning of the series changes with the difference in the characters (ESPECIALLY Shinji). If the characters are not different, then everything is left relatively in tact and we are simply just walking down another fork in the road. This is what I thought Rebuild was going to be like, however, I believe Anno simply decided to take a different journey altogether or perhaps decided to water down his journey into a very dilute state.

This is why I find it hard to recognize Rebuild as truly Evangelion. I get the sense that it is of course from the in your face elements like the Angels and Eva's, and the setup of the story in general. But in the original Evangelion, I really got the sense that this was Anno's heart and soul being put on a table for everyone to see, and I still have not been able to get that from Rebuild (Though I admit, the movie format hurts this a bit).

Again, perhaps Anno can shatter everything I said in the next movies, but there are some things that I already feel are beyond repair (Like Asuka).

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It's called 'tongue-in-cheek'. :P Humor the old maid taking up Creative Writing as her Master's Degree (and is currently trying to properly explicate the theme of a 400+ page novel in less than 100 words) -- as I've come to see the changes in Rebuild as an interesting study in Plot Divergence, with a creator revisiting his older, well-known work, and changing the fundamental dynamics in it to make something similar, yet at the same time wildly different from the source it was based on.

Some people have a hard time accepting the fact that the Anno of today is indeed different from the Anno that directed the TV series, and that the tone of Rebuild very likely reflects his newer outlook. And this isn't just the traditionalists that I so jokingly lumped Reckoner with, who decry the movies as being too mainstream in message to be even considered as part of the sprawling franchise's canon.

EVANGELION meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people, never mind Anno himself. Unfortunately, how he sees EVA now as a concept/idea might be wildly different from how he looked at it fifteen-odd years ago.
Of course like any form of art, it's what it means to the audience that matters in the end. Despite this, often the artist tries to evoke some sort of feeling, or send some sort of message. What would a movie like No Country for Old Men even be without its ending scene for example (Perhaps you have seen it?).

If the artist is clearly trying to send this sort of message or speak to the audience in some way, but the audience is not even able to recognize it, can we interpret this as a failure?

My point is, Evangelion clearly had some sort of agenda. There are many way we can spin it of course, but Anno injected some sort of meaning to the series in general.

Now everyone is still speculating of course about Anno's intentions in Rebuild. We do not know him. We heard reports that he was depressed during NGE, and we hear reports now that he is apparently "happy." Does this mean he has a change in philosophy? Perhaps this is the case and now he wishes to shape Evangelion into his new way of thinking.

However, I remain a skeptic. Both because so far I haven't seen any of his new philosophy or what have you (I'm still waiting for the next movies to pass judgement though), and that perhaps maybe not everyone has been able to morph their thinking in a way that could connect with this new mind set.

I came on a little late to the Evangelion scene, since I am younger than the original audience. But for some reason I doubt those extra years would have honestly provided that much of a difference to my outlook on this series.
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Old 2010-07-04, 10:54   Link #2425
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In Rebuild or EoE?
In EoE, obviously.

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Personally I find this to be huge. Mr.Hedgehog is CHOOSING to become close with someone.
But that's part of the dilemma. It's not just about keeping distance. It's also about getting close, being hurt, and not being able to deal with that. Maybe you feel that this decision derails Shinji somewhat, but in light of analyzing the Hedgehog's dilemma itself, i don't think making him get closer to Rei is a bad choice. Of course, only the future movies will tell.

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Hmm. So he chose to get close with another person, where the rest of the world save perhaps Gendo and Selee is against what is happening. Feels like a shounen doesn't it? Where everyone is against the main character, but he stubbornly refuses and in epic fashion tries to save this person against all odds.
Who's "everyone"? Before Third Impact kicked in, the only people really objecting were Ritsuko and Zeruel. Hell, Misato cheers him on. And after T.I. starts to happen, well.... protests become irrelevant.

Another thing that those celebrating Shinji's manly moment seem to forget is that he accomplished his deeds through the power of Eva. I'm a bit befuddled by people not taking note of this, despite the fact that both in the series and in Rebuild (every "mwhahaha, our machinations are progressing well" conversation between Gendo and Seele) it is established pretty firmly that Evas are abominable monstrosities that shouldn't exist in the first place if not for mankind's own foolishness. Well, Eva-01 has Yui inside, which makes things more layered, but the thing itself is still an unholy biotech demon.

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However, I feel that directly comparing the events in the newer movies to their "counterparts" in the original series is totally counterproductive.
It's sorta fun. And i honestly see the analogies.

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Old 2010-07-04, 11:27   Link #2426
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However, I remain a skeptic. Both because so far I haven't seen any of his new philosophy or what have you (I'm still waiting for the next movies to pass judgement though), and that perhaps maybe not everyone has been able to morph their thinking in a way that could connect with this new mind set.
One of the more recent papers I had to write was about one of our National Artists for Poetry here in the Philippines, and how he basically 'wrote' the same poem over the span of thirty-odd years: first during the late 50s during the height of the Nationalist movement, towards the late 70s as he was forced into exile in the US because of Martial Law. It was very interesting to plot the changes wrought on the poem with every revisit, as it traced not only the evolution of his craft, but his mindset as well, with the earliest version vaguely militant, while the last one more than a little melancholic. Although the poem was the same with regards to the words, theme, and structure used, it's tone shifted with each amendment, as words were added or cut out, or a line was moved a bit here or there.

I could easily see the same with Anno's case. Which makes it a fascinating study, on top of the visual and thematic shifts we've seen so far.

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I came on a little late to the Evangelion scene, since I am younger than the original audience. But for some reason I doubt those extra years would have honestly provided that much of a difference to my outlook on this series.
You'd be surprised how much even just a decade's worth of extra experience can change one's outlook. I went from being a bipolar timebomb to pretty much unflappable and open-minded over the course of my second try at my undergraduate studies, for example.
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Old 2010-07-04, 11:37   Link #2427
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You'd be surprised how much even just a decade's worth of extra experience can change one's outlook.
Including Anno's.
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Old 2010-07-04, 12:23   Link #2428
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You'd be surprised how much even just a decade's worth of extra experience can change one's outlook.
That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. As I mentioned, Heidegger, arguably the most important philosopher of the 20th century, went on from basically founding existentialism to completely denying it in his latter years, giving headway to the subject-denying wave of postmodern philosophers to rise. Heidegger's later phase is utterly ridiculous and unworthy of any serious study, much as postmodern philosophers are today.
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Old 2010-07-04, 12:58   Link #2429
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Heidegger, arguably the most important philosopher of the 20th century, went on from basically founding existentialism to completely denying it in his latter years,
Good for him, existentialism is overused and overrated.
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Old 2010-07-04, 13:11   Link #2430
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It's only the most important breakthrough of 20th century philosophy and the main point of NGE, anyways.
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Old 2010-07-04, 13:29   Link #2431
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That was a joke.
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Old 2010-07-04, 16:01   Link #2432
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That was a joke.
You're enjoying this aren't you?
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Old 2010-07-04, 19:26   Link #2433
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You're enjoying this aren't you?
Considering I really enjoy rebuild so far, yes, yes I am. Besides, controversy makes for lively forums chats.

Sigh, why must the wait for the next movie be so long.......
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Old 2010-07-06, 20:39   Link #2434
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One of the more recent papers I had to write was about one of our National Artists for Poetry here in the Philippines, and how he basically 'wrote' the same poem over the span of thirty-odd years: first during the late 50s during the height of the Nationalist movement, towards the late 70s as he was forced into exile in the US because of Martial Law. It was very interesting to plot the changes wrought on the poem with every revisit, as it traced not only the evolution of his craft, but his mindset as well, with the earliest version vaguely militant, while the last one more than a little melancholic. Although the poem was the same with regards to the words, theme, and structure used, it's tone shifted with each amendment, as words were added or cut out, or a line was moved a bit here or there.

I could easily see the same with Anno's case. Which makes it a fascinating study, on top of the visual and thematic shifts we've seen so far.
As WanderingKnight pointed out though, sometimes a change in perspective or outlook isn't a good thing. I can't tell you how many times I listen to some band or music artist that only made very good music when being depressed or happy.

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You'd be surprised how much even just a decade's worth of extra experience can change one's outlook. I went from being a bipolar timebomb to pretty much unflappable and open-minded over the course of my second try at my undergraduate studies, for example.
Well, only time will tell. Personally, things have stayed the same for me for a long time (Beyond accumulating more knowledge and experience of course), and I'm about to be a 2nd year at college. Even just getting admitted to the hospital for about a week did little to effect me psychologically.

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But that's part of the dilemma. It's not just about keeping distance. It's also about getting close, being hurt, and not being able to deal with that. Maybe you feel that this decision derails Shinji somewhat, but in light of analyzing the Hedgehog's dilemma itself, i don't think making him get closer to Rei is a bad choice. Of course, only the future movies will tell.
Well it's a matter of personal taste. Yes, technically I suppose this is an equal way to explore the hedgehog's dilemma... However, what I been trying to get at is how this is the "lite" hedgehog dilemma where as the original Shinji was the full blown hedgehog.

This was a more unnatural way to explore it or perhaps that's the wrong word to use here... But this makes it seem like Shinji was not as broken down by the dilemma as NGE Shinji. NGE Shinji really wasn't willing to try much anymore, and any so called "relationships" he had with people around him were really formed naturally without him making any outward effort to do anything (Beyond trying to understand his father a little bit).

I don't want to see Shinji making lunches for people, and going out of his way to try and bond with them like he did with Rei in this movie. I think it does an injustice to people who really suffer the hedgehog's dilemma or at least those who understand his pain.

Perhaps Anno is trying to make Shinji rise higher to try and make him fall even harder... But I guess we'll see.

Anyways, I basically want my damn coca cola instead of this diet coca cola crap!

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Who's "everyone"? Before Third Impact kicked in, the only people really objecting were Ritsuko and Zeruel. Hell, Misato cheers him on. And after T.I. starts to happen, well.... protests become irrelevant.
Well I was thinking more along the lines of what the common person out there would think if they understood the situation but that wasn't really all that relavant to the my point regardless... I just felt Shinji's moment of grunting and finding Ayanami in Zeruel bordered on Gurren-Lagann type shonen hotbloodedness that does not quite belong in this anime.

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Another thing that those celebrating Shinji's manly moment seem to forget is that he accomplished his deeds through the power of Eva.
They certainly are abominable beings.
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Old 2010-07-06, 21:35   Link #2435
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Nearing the end of my fifth or sixth rewatching of the series, I have to say that I cannot see how Anno can change things. Unless he dissolves the dichotomy of Instrumentality (death of the human, humans as objects, Heidegger II's paradigm of man as a shepherd of the being which latter provided the foundations for postmodern philosophers) vs. Self (the Being not as a transcendent cogito but as Heidegger I's discrete Dasein, human subjectivity, Sartre's consciousness, being-for-itself and being-for-others) and adds another possibility, there is no other path he can take. If changing the ending means he will take the Instrumentality path, then it's more laughable than we can possibly imagine, and I'm sure he won't do such a disservice to himself. And honestly, besides Asuka's mysterious epiphany, there haven't been too many changes in the new movies, at least in terms of character development and underlying ideas.

Also, seriously lolling at Wikipedia right now:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The two endings are similar in plot, but while in the film Shinji rejects Instrumentality, the television series ends after his decision is made but before it is clear which option he chose.
It's crystal clear that Shinji also rejects Instrumentality and decides to become an individual once more in the TV ending. Even if what the characters say don't hint you towards it, the fact that Shinji's room is destroyed in the end should be enough of a clue. Part of the reason why I wanted to rewatch the series (asides from the fact that I love it and want to see my interpretation of it now that it's been a few years since I last saw it) was because those lines I read in Wikipedia puzzled me. Glad to see I wasn't wrong before.

Also, I kind of feel dirty for writing all that philosophical babble I wrote earlier since I know it sounds extremely smug, but bear with me. After rewatching the series with a stronger philosophical background, I'm convinced that, even if he did it unwittingly (which would not surprise me, artists need not be aware of their own influences), Anno condensed one of the most important conflicts of 20th century philosophy in NGE. And even threw Freud and Lacan into the mix. Simply brilliant -- that's the beauty of NGE. There's so many layers, even if they weren't put there on purpose. You could write an entire forest about it.
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Old 2010-07-07, 00:04   Link #2436
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To be fair. The ending of the TV series is debated intensely. There are clues to suggest that both endings play out concurrently, but there are reasonable arguments to say that Shinji did accept instrumentality. This is especially so considering how surreal the ending scene was with the congratulations at the end.

Personally I subscribe to both happening at the same time, and are the same ending... But I can see the logic in thinking otherwise.
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Old 2010-07-07, 00:17   Link #2437
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Well, I certainly don't see it at all... Unless our understanding of what the Instrumentality represents differ. "I want to exist!", "I want to stay here!". Those words, together with all the development the voices inside his head work throughout the final episode, which mirrors the development in EoE, pretty much shows us that Shinji doesn't want to become the One. He wants to stay himself, separated from the Others. Which is pretty much what he does in the movie when he rejects Instrumentality.

There's loads of stuff that justify that. The fact that he creates his own world. The fact that we see an alternate reality, brought about by his own volition. Instead of devolving into an uniform mass, devoid of any will whatsoever, instead of becoming and object, he chooses to remain a subject -- a free subject, a free consciousness that will shape his own future.
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Old 2010-07-07, 01:21   Link #2438
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Well a thread that discusses this a tiny bit is http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic....=asc&start=120.

Some people go as far as to say that in Evangelion, everything was made up in Shinji's mind, and that the congratulations at the end is simply him acknowledging reality.

Here's an excerpt from a poster there for example.

Quote:
In EoTV we keep going back and forth between Shinji, Asuka, Misato, etc. For each person they are obviously in distress and not enjoying the experience. For example, in a scene that focuses on Asuka, she'll be freaking out, on the verge of mental breakdown, by some voices that are delving into her mind. Then, in another scene (presumably occurring simultaneously) she'll be calm and collected and doing the same thing to Shinji. Are we really supposed to think she suddenly got it together so she could go and harass Shinji? If this is all occurring simultaneously, then I have trouble accepting that.

I always pictured this as the minds are starting to merge, and each individual is trying their best to push the others away (or at least having trouble accepting them). Their perception of those other people is what is talking to them, and not the actual people. Aren't they kind of busy dealing with their own "instrumentality" at the moment? Then we have Shinji eventually comes to terms with himself, and the "Congratulations" scene appears. So, once he comes to terms, everyone else suddenly drops their own struggle through instrumentality to congratulate him? That doesn't really seem to make sense either. This is another reason why I thought it was all "in his head" so to speak. Not that he hallucinated everything, but perhaps each character represented his own view on how he thought that character perceived him. Once he reaches acceptance he can finally move on to full instrumentality with everybody else (or it's rejection, whichever ending you prefer).

And as for Kaji being there, wasn't he dead for an awfully long time to be included? Or can any corpse that has been rotting away for thousands of years join in? I don't think there is any definitive answer on this subject, is there? It's an interesting topic and shouldn't be dismissed so readily. Or perhaps there is lot of fanwanking that has become perceived as canon?
By the way, here are some other links for some of you guys to chew on.

What is Canon?

Common Misconceptions in Evangelion
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Old 2010-07-07, 22:01   Link #2439
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I gotta say (as I believe I said before), I'm with Reckoner on this one. There are enough good arguments on both sides of the EoTV/EoE same-ending/different-ending debate that I think taking a firm stance one way or another is rather silly.

Personally, I *like* to believe they are different endings...primarily because Eva is (naturally) a work of fiction. Having two different endings makes it very clearly fictional, and thus points out the absurdity of the question, "But what REALLY happened?"

That said, I *can* easily argue that the endings are different, but I'd simply be using the arguments from the EvaOtaku site. And I know all the arguments for why they are the same ending. They can be compelling, but ultimately, it comes down to which persuasive arguments you choose to believe.
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Old 2010-07-07, 22:13   Link #2440
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Well a thread that discusses this a tiny bit is http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic....=asc&start=120.

Some people go as far as to say that in Evangelion, everything was made up in Shinji's mind, and that the congratulations at the end is simply him acknowledging reality.

Here's an excerpt from a poster there for example.
The fact that he thinks differently is because he's misunderstanding what the Instrumentality means. In fact, another poster in that very same thread pointed out his mistake correctly:

Quote:
No one has their own instrumentality, it's all one process (points at random female voices in EoE) with Shinji being given the choice weather or not it finishes. The mechanics of what is happening are spelled out rather clearly.
As he states, the Instrumentality is one big process which Shinji is given the choice whether to undertake or not, there's no "individual instrumentality" as the other poster seems to imply, since that would contradict the purpose of the Instrumentality itself. The Instrumentality represents the abolition of human subjectivity. Undertaking the Instrumentality would mean that Shinji himself, as a free individual capable of making his own decisions and having his own thoughts, would disappear. The very fact that he claims that he wants to exist negates the Instrumentality, and proves that he didn't choose to undertake it.

Also, there's no contradiction between the characters speaking to Shinji not being really characters, but just his imagination, his individual image of each character, and what I just wrote. In fact, I strongly believe it's all in his mind. Heck, in EoE every character speaking to Shinji during the final scenes (excepting perhaps Rei, depending on your interpretation) is a product of his imagination. That doesn't make Shinji less of an individual -- in fact, it makes him more so.

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Personally, I *like* to believe they are different endings...primarily because Eva is (naturally) a work of fiction. Having two different endings makes it very clearly fictional, and thus points out the absurdity of the question, "But what REALLY happened?"
Both endings being different (as in, reaching a different conclusion, not necessarily spelling out different events and arriving at the same conclusion(*)) would make the whole thing completely ridiculous. Throughout the series Anno gives enough hints for us to believe that he makes a moral choice regarding the Instrumentality: that he thinks it's fundamentally flawed. Shinji accepting the Instrumentality would serve no purpose whatsoever, and Anno suddenly changing his mind in the space of three years would be even more ridiculous.

(*) Though I would actually go ahead and argument that both endings depict exactly the same events, but that's besides the point.

PS: I should really sit down one day and write an article on this stuff or something.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2010-07-07 at 22:30.
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