AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Movies, OVAs/OADs, and Specials

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-04-01, 00:24   Link #2581
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Yes there are several details that were unused or changed as the movie was in the works. That's natural. What's bad though is the reason for many of the changes that made this movie your average generic mecha anime with moe and shonen willpower.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 00:49   Link #2582
Hagoshod
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Send a message via AIM to Hagoshod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Yes there are several details that were unused or changed as the movie was in the works. That's natural.
Are there any story boards for it? I've seen the ones for Asuka getting her face eaten or whatever, but I never heard about the EVA-03 retrieval scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Spoiler:
I... actually kind of like this version of the screenplay and wish they would have animated it. Yeah, it still suffers from the horrible decisions of "Hey, let's needlessly throw in a new character when we admit we're already rushed for time" and "Hey, let's suddenly pretend EVA-02 doesn't exist for no believable reason," but it's better than the crap we got for 2.0

For one thing, Mari actually INTERACTS with the other characters. She develops CHEMISTRY with the rest of the main cast and feels more like she's part of the "team." Yeah, she's still basically an author avatar who has nothing to do with the original story, but at least they're TRYING to make her fit in with this draft. They even find room to acknowledge the supporting characters (Toji, Hikari, and Kensuke).

I cannot fathom what made Khara think "Let's trash all of this and make Mari into the most loosely tied character possible" was a better idea.
Hagoshod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 02:27   Link #2583
Shiroth
Beautiful fighter.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England, UK
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
What's bad though is the reason for many of the changes that made this movie your average generic mecha anime with moe and shonen willpower.
& you have all that in the original TV series as well.
__________________
Shiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 02:33   Link #2584
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Are there any story boards for it? I've seen the ones for Asuka getting her face eaten or whatever, but I never heard about the EVA-03 retrieval scene.
Hmm, I'd have to look around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
I... actually kind of like this version of the screenplay and wish they would have animated it. Yeah, it still suffers from the horrible decisions of "Hey, let's needlessly throw in a new character when we admit we're already rushed for time" and "Hey, let's suddenly pretend EVA-02 doesn't exist for no believable reason," but it's better than the crap we got for 2.0

For one thing, Mari actually INTERACTS with the other characters. She develops CHEMISTRY with the rest of the main cast and feels more like she's part of the "team." Yeah, she's still basically an author avatar who has nothing to do with the original story, but at least they're TRYING to make her fit in with this draft. They even find room to acknowledge the supporting characters (Toji, Hikari, and Kensuke).

I cannot fathom what made Khara think "Let's trash all of this and make Mari into the most loosely tied character possible" was a better idea.
Yeah, it's better than what they currently gave us, but I'd rather she just not be there in the first place I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
& you have all that in the original TV series as well.
You damn sadist .

I guess what I'm trying to say is that rebuild presents these more general tropes in a far more exaggerated and uninspiring manner than the original series.

There's just quite a different feeling, for example, from Shinji during the Zeruel fight in rebuild and the original TV.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-01, 20:23   Link #2585
Hagoshod
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Send a message via AIM to Hagoshod
See, the thing about comparing the TV series to Rebuild is this:

The TV series provided a reason as to why the pilots are random teenagers. It made the effort to make sure it WOULDN'T follow mecha norms by establishing the giant robots weren't just simple machines, and the pilots weren't interchangeable due to the whole soul-linking system. Regardless of how well it may or may not have been pulled off, you can't deny the original NGE at least tried to make itself be the Anti-Gundam.

Rebuild? Oh, no. The Evas are machines with easily removable motors and, as Ritsuko tells us during Asuka's temper tantrum, completely expendable pilots. Wow. Way to totally miss the point on what Evangelion is supposed to be. And then it has a glasses-wearing character who changes her eye color and shouts out some mysterious codename to cause her mecha to use an armor ejection gimmick.



Ho. Lee. Shit.

This is the pinnacle of "We wanted to do something different with Eva, but we don't have a single original thought of our own so we'll just blatantly rip off whatever's popular right now."

On top of the abysmal Vatican Treaty swerve, Rebuild 2.0 goes out of the way to intentionally violate ever principle NGE tried to establish and drag the entire work into a pit of mediocrity. Something that was explicitly designed to be the Anti-Gundam is literally now just another Gundam series.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-04-04 at 13:57.
Hagoshod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 02:50   Link #2586
minagoroshi-hen
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Yeah. Too bad there arent't two more movies left to develop Mari's character, tell us about her origins, explain the (possible) reasons behind the expandable pilots and the removable motors (see the sequel theory). Oh wai-
minagoroshi-hen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 03:09   Link #2587
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by minagoroshi-hen View Post
Yeah. Too bad there arent't two more movies left to develop Mari's character, tell us about her origins, explain the (possible) reasons behind the expandable pilots and the removable motors (see the sequel theory). Oh wai-
I think you're a little confused. The next two movies combined make up the length of 1.0 or 2.0 (At the moment at least). So really, it's 1 movie.

Basically she was introduced in the 2nd third of a series and was not developed at all. In fact the only time she did have in the film consisted of pointless hotblooded mecha fighting, something you'd see in something like Gundam. And even worst? This time only served to screw other character's development in the film (Asuka), as if she wasn't already damaged enough.

Sorry, she's Anno's new cash whore through and through.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 03:16   Link #2588
minagoroshi-hen
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think you're a little confused. The next two movies combined make up the length of 1.0 or 2.0 (At the moment at least). So really, it's 1 movie..
Sauce on this?

she was not developed at all =/= she will not be developed

Kaworu had like 15 minutes of screentime in the TV series and those 15 minutes were enough to turn him into a memorable character.
minagoroshi-hen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 03:44   Link #2589
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by minagoroshi-hen View Post
Sauce on this?

she was not developed at all =/= she will not be developed

Kaworu had like 15 minutes of screentime in the TV series and those 15 minutes were enough to turn him into a memorable character.
Sankei Shimbun said "he First Volume, REBUILD OF EVANGELION:01 is due out in early summer 2007 it will have an estimated running time of 90 minutes. The Second Part, REBUILD OF EVANGELION:02 is expected in January 2008, also with a running time of 90 minutes. The Latter Part + Last Program of the series, REBUILD OF EVANGELION:03-04 are expected in early summer (possibly June) of 2008, they will have an estimated length of 45 minutes each. Additionally, ANS has learned the 3rd part (Latter Part) (which corresponds to the events of the movies and episodes 25 and 26 of the TV series) and the 4th "Last Program" will be mostly new stories and material. Parts 1-3 will use some key animation sequences from the original TV series, with new backgrounds (settings) and music. Shinji Higuchi is confirmed on the project and has already completed a new story board for the 1st film."

Quote:
9-9-06 (8:55AM EDT)---- Further Evangelion Shin Gekijou Ban Details

With Newtype's scoop out in Japan this weekend the floodgates of inquiry on the 4 new Evangelion movies have apparently opened wide. While the Newtype information is new to general public, like most print magazines the material was most likely put together several weeks to a month in advance of publication. In that time new things with story have happened and Sankei Shimbun has interesting new information on the project already. First off they mention the original 3 Eva films made 4.5 billion Yen in total at the Japanese boxoffice. The manga published by Kadokawa Shoten has exceeded 15 million copies sold over the existing 10 volumes. Videos and DVD's sold exceed 4.5 million copies and about 30 billion Yen. Total goods sales exceeds 100 billion Yen. While the overall project is being called "Evangelion Shin Gekijou Ban" as mentioned in Newtype, the individual films are being titled "REBUILD OF EVANGELION". The First Volume, REBUILD OF EVANGELION:01 is due out in early summer 2007 it will have an estimated running time of 90 minutes. The Second Part, REBUILD OF EVANGELION:02 is expected in January 2008, also with a running time of 90 minutes. The Latter Part + Last Program of the series, REBUILD OF EVANGELION:03-04 are expected in early summer (possibly June) of 2008, they will have an estimated length of 45 minutes each. Additionally, ANS has learned the 3rd part (Latter Part) (which corresponds to the events of the movies and episodes 25 and 26 of the TV series) and the 4th "Last Program" will be mostly new stories and material. Parts 1-3 will use some key animation sequences from the original TV series, with new backgrounds (settings) and music. Shinji Higuchi is confirmed on the project and has already completed a new story board for the 1st film. A good deal of 3DCG animation will be implemented. The total economic effect of the 4 new Evangelion films is estimated at around 100 billion Yen or more. Director Hideaki Anno has chosen this point in time specifically to produce the new Eva, waiting until the hype of the previous works to cooled down.
http://www.animenewsservice.com/archives/septxo.htm

------------------------

Until otherwise noted, this is what we have to go by.

And uh, I never said she wouldn't be developed. The point is that every second she was on screen was basically pointless, if not insulting to the Evangelion franchise. She's as close as oyu can get to mary sue without actually being one. It's pretty funny though.

And btw, your example of Kaworu is a piss poor one for a couple reasons.
  1. He is one of the most widely criticized characters in the entire show. He enters the show EXTREMELY late, then leaves just as suddenly as he appeared.
  2. The effects he has on Shinji are much more notable than the character himself.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 04:03   Link #2590
minagoroshi-hen
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
And btw, your example of Kaworu is a piss poor one for a couple reasons.
  1. He is one of the most widely criticized characters in the entire show. He enters the show EXTREMELY late, then leaves just as suddenly as he appeared.
  2. The effects he has on Shinji are much more notable than the character himself.
That wasn't the point. I was trying to say that a character can be presented in an interesting manner in a short period of time. A memorable character doesn't need 100+ episodes of development. Heck, one of the most iconic characters from any medium, dr. Hannibal Lecter, serves just as a ''guide'' for Clarice.(i'm only talking about the movie adaptation of the novel). That doesn't make him less interesting. He's interesting in his own right even without the background provided by Rising.

Same with Kaworu. The effects he had on Shinji make him a great character because by affecting Shinji, he fulfils his purpose as a character. Also, I couldn't care less about the ''widely criticized'' bit.
minagoroshi-hen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 04:43   Link #2591
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by minagoroshi-hen View Post
That wasn't the point. I was trying to say that a character can be presented in an interesting manner in a short period of time. A memorable character doesn't need 100+ episodes of development. Heck, one of the most iconic characters from any medium, dr. Hannibal Lecter, serves just as a ''guide'' for Clarice.(i'm only talking about the movie adaptation of the novel). That doesn't make him less interesting. He's interesting in his own right even without the background provided by Rising.

Same with Kaworu. The effects he had on Shinji make him a great character because by affecting Shinji, he fulfils his purpose as a character. Also, I couldn't care less about the ''widely criticized'' bit.
I guess I have no choice but to debate this for the 10000000th time.

OK.

First can we agree on one thing... In context of 2.0, as a stand alone film, can you at least admit there was nothing really "interesting" presented by her character? If not I'll have to debate this too. She represents everything that Eva TV was not about.

Anyhow, your example so Hanibal Lector is also quite a poor one. He was featured prominently in the film, and played an integral role in the capture of Buffalo Bill by Clarice. His character was a particularly memorable one because of the wonderful presentation, interesting ideas, and of course as well, some great acting. The key thing to note about this? Execution.

Execution is what is lacking with not just Mari's character, but even your example of Kaworu. Yeah sure, he had a deep impact on Shinji, yada, yada. But why was Kaworu able to gain such a strongly intense emotional bond with Shinji in just the mere span of an episode? I mean c'mon now. Even the production team has noted several times that they his character was intended to be introduced much earlier. It was just a bad error.

I said the impact was more notable because it was something we had to take a face value. Basically Kaworu served as more of a plot device to worsen Shinji's mental state with the hedgehog's dilemma than anything else. I'll give you this, for a character that was only on screen for a short as time as he was, he probably is the most memorable 15 min anime character of all time . But really, we barely got a feel for his character.

Anyhow about Mari... There's nothing about her character to enjoy. She provided moments of fanservice, whether it is sexual or hot blooded mecha battles, and posed a "tiny" mystery around her identity. Oh great. Guess what happened by the clumsily way they introduced her? She was basically on the sidelines the whole time and felt like she was part of a whole different film. Other prominent characters (Asuka) had their screen time further reduced, if it was not already strained enough. She's just plain unnatural.

I'll quote a poster I like from another forum...

Quote:
Well, there's always your butthurt Asuka fanboy (someone had to say it), but honestly, looking at things the most objectively i can, i really think that her "Wheeee, giant robots are teh fun!" attitude actually managed to lessen dramatic tension whenever she appeared.

I just couldn't take her or her involvment seriously. Singing before engagement? Exclaiming "Nyah!" before jumping Zeruel, the uberdestructive harbinger of Armageddon? Come on!

Maybe she is a character who is meant to both enthrall and entertain, but call me weird: i don't want to be "entertained" in the classic fun having sense when i watch anything Eva related. I want to be pulverized into my chair and have my emotions violently be played with, something i just couldn't get out of her so far (for the record, 2.0 as a whole was pretty slim in this department for me).

We know almost nothing of her yet, and can't even make guesses at how she will contribute to Rebuild as a whole in the future, but i honestly fear that she represents a paradigm shift towards "Fun with biomechs" from "Gritty inter-Apocalyptic tragedy". And Rebuild or not, happier Anno or not, in my mind, the latter is the only way for Eva to really work. Otherwise, it's just Gurren Lagann/Mazinger Z/<insert> with different giant robots.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 05:12   Link #2592
minagoroshi-hen
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I guess I have no choice but to debate this for the 10000000th time.

OK.

First can we agree on one thing... In context of 2.0, as a stand alone film, can you at least admit there was nothing really "interesting" presented by her character? If not I'll have to debate this too. She represents everything that Eva TV was not about.
Actually, the scene where 02 holds Shinji in its hand showing him the damage sustained by Tokyo-3 is pretty damn powerful. So, here's something Mari-related which I thought was well done. Other than that, she's pretty fun to watch and somehow fits with Rebuild's atmosphere.

And about Kaworu, can you really say he wasn't at least somewhat nicely presented? It's true his screentime was incredibly short, but he actually was and felt like a part of the show. He was a plot device but a pretty damn interesting one. Kaworu is nearly empty as a character. He's 'developed' not as a character but as a type, as a role, as what Shinji sees him as.

Also, Hannibal didn't have a lot of screentime. He played his role as a ''guide'' for Clarice. Apart from the subjective 'execution' excuse you presented, I don't see how my example was a poor one. Kaworu and him are essentially from the same gens if we are to consider their role as 'guides'.

The whole thing started with me saying that: ''Mari could be developed in an interesting manner in a short amount of time''. I myself am not satisfied with her character as it is. That doesn't mean I should randomly start bashing an incomplete work

Last edited by minagoroshi-hen; 2011-04-02 at 05:38.
minagoroshi-hen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 15:02   Link #2593
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
The film is supposed to stand on its own. 2.0 isn't supposed to rely on 3.0 and beyond to be "good." I am not randomly bashing an incomplete work. The film did a bad job at integrating her character into the Evangelion Universe, and really just felt like a self-insert by Anno. There was nothing powerful about her character, and the fact that she had aserious talk with Shinji like that, as if she understood him, although they met for a period of like 10 seconds is pretty much unbelievable.

If you can't see though that Kaworu obviously didn't get enough screen time to be developed naturally as a character, in an unrushed manner, then whatever. Yeah the plot demanded that X happens. How best to do that? Oh yeah lets introduce a character that (quite unbelievably) manages to get attached to Shinji in the span of a few days in the show that no one else is the show was able to, and then precede to execute a grand plot point just as fast and unnaturally as he was introduced.

Look, you're talking to someone whose favorite series is Evangelion, but it doesn't mean I can't admit a glaring fault/problem that arose with the production team's planning.

Oh yes, you threw in the word "subjective..." Guess what? All of what we are saying is subjective (Though Kaworu's introduction is basically as close to objectively bad of a flaw as you can get).
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 15:20   Link #2594
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Sorry, she's Anno's new cash whore through and through.
And a good looking one at that.

On that matter I just bumped into a girl who I thought looked familiar and then when I re-watched Eva 2.0 again I realized that she looked almost alike. If the guys were looking for a model to base the looks off of she could easily do it.

And on another matter, when in the Emperor's name will we be getting the next eva movies? I need my eva fix darn it!
SoldierOfDarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-02, 16:56   Link #2595
minagoroshi-hen
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
The film is supposed to stand on its own. 2.0 isn't supposed to rely on 3.0 and beyond to be "good." I am not randomly bashing an incomplete work.
It's a series of movies, not an anthology composed of 3-4 movies. I agree that some of the 'flaws' you pointed out are relatively legitemate, but eva 2.0 is a sequel to Eva 0.1 and a prequel to the not yet released Eva 3.0. It's bound to rely on the other 3 movies because it can't function as a standalone.

Other than that, I agree that Kaworu's lately introduction was a 'flaw'. I never denied that his interactions with Shinji felt unnatural.

Guess I should stop here. Keeping myself busy till Eva 3.0 comes out has proven to be quite a tough task.
minagoroshi-hen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-03, 02:16   Link #2596
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 31
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
If they somehow make good use of Mari's character later on, I'll give credit to them when that happens.

I don't judge according to what they could do, since that's pretty meaningless. I judge by what they have done, and to say that the priorities weren't straight for 2.0 would be an understatement.

They could have developed Mari instead of wasting time pissing on Asuka's character. Or what's left of it.
__________________
The greatest lie is to convince people that the world is a dangerous place and a zero sum game where you are never safe. Distrust others and fight them for scraps, while the real enemy that spreads this lie takes the whole pie.
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-03, 18:45   Link #2597
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by minagoroshi-hen View Post
Guess I should stop here. Keeping myself busy till Eva 3.0 comes out has proven to be quite a tough task.
That is the truest statement that's been written in this thread in a while. Too many things are up in the air right now. We have to wait for (some of) the dust to settle first.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-03, 21:28   Link #2598
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
The TV series provided a reason as to why the pilots are random teenagers. It made the effort to make sure it WOULDN'T follow mecha norms by establishing the giant robots weren't just simple machines, and the pilots weren't interchangeable due to the whole soul-linking system. Regardless of how well it may or may not have been pulled off, you can't deny the original NGE at least tried to make itself be the Anti-Gundam.
[...]
Something that was explicitly designed to be the Anti-Gundam is literally now just another Gundam series.
I don't see the anti-Gundam side at all. The NGE TV-series was just more retro then Gundam. Going back to a more 1970s style of humongouss mecha placed in a near future setting, drawing heavily on Mazinger Z, while inserting the grimness of 1980s real robot shows.

Both NGE and Gundam both gave clear explanations for teenage pilots, whether soul linked or newtype. Shinji's background for that matter is quite similar to Kamile Bidans. NGE main innovation compared to older mecha was in the way it portrayed and focussed on it's characters emotions and thoughts.

Universal Century Gundam shows and later Alternate universe shows differed significantly in tone and realism. NGE aired roughly around the same time as the first Gundam alternate universe series, way too late to be any kind of reaction to them.
Bri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-03, 21:34   Link #2599
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Universal Century Gundam shows and later Alternate universe shows differed significantly in tone and realism. NGE aired roughly around the same time as the first Gundam alternate universe series, way too late to be any kind of reaction to them.
I suppose we're drawing contrast between NGE and the AU universe gundam shows. Rebuild is to NGE, what AU gundam is to UC gundam in my eyes (The former often being worst than the latter).
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-04, 00:08   Link #2600
Hagoshod
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Send a message via AIM to Hagoshod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Both NGE and Gundam both gave clear explanations for teenage pilots, whether soul linked or newtype.
Except adult Newtypes exist. NGE pretty heavily relies on the idea that only a small population of children can pilot Evangelions as some weird biological result of being in utero during the Second Impact, and/or the souls of their mothers being bound to specific units.

For as innovative as it was, even MSG boils down to Amuro being some random kid who winds up in the Gundam's cockpit purely by accident/coincidence, and nothing deeper than that.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-04-04 at 04:04.
Hagoshod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
movie, remake

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.