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Old 2007-02-10, 12:09   Link #2041
Alavaria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
And I also support the theory that the Knights were created with a few limits on the magic they can cast, since it would've been expected that the Wolkenritter would fight as a cohesive group, rather than individually in serious situations.
Well, yeah, but a cohesive group of knights with no limits would be even better ... it's easy to NOT use something if you don't want to, and hard to use it if you don't know it. Basically, you're saying the YnS restricted its Guardians for no reason?
Unless they were real people (makes sense) then yeah, they wouldn't necessarily know everything...
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Old 2007-02-10, 13:27   Link #2042
Kikaifan
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I'm confused about the nature of the Knights now... they talk like they have limits on their magic in the anime and in the manga they make clear reference to having to replenish it, as if it comes from Hayate/the Book instead of themselves, but they have linker cores of their own to be taken in the big finale too, and in StrikerS they're obviously independent since Signum works in different department than Hayate and wouldn't be able to see her daily.

Only reconciliation that comes off the top of my head is that their generating capacity went towards the Book and they had to get their own power dolled out to them, but now that it's gone they get it directly...


I haven't read chapter 5, and I like the idea that Knightly weapons-enhancing but not other forms of Belkan magic have survived into the modern era, but another interpretation I'd offer is that Belkan-style devices are best for close combat, and they interact best with Belkan-style magic, so close-combat oriented mages tend to learn Belkan magic to make best use of devices that suit their style.
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Old 2007-02-10, 19:09   Link #2043
Alavaria
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'm confused about the nature of the Knights now... they talk like they have limits on their magic in the anime and in the manga they make clear reference to having to replenish it, as if it comes from Hayate/the Book instead of themselves, but they have linker cores of their own to be taken in the big finale too, and in StrikerS they're obviously independent since Signum works in different department than Hayate and wouldn't be able to see her daily.
How does Arf get her mana from Fate? I imagine the Guardian Knight -> Master thing might be similar to Familar/Guardian Beast -> Master thing.

Some to think of it, Arf gets magic from Fate (she says so) but surely she has been seperated from her for a good bit of time at some point right? ... I can't seem to remember if that was the case. It might be a magical connection, like how (bad parallel, I know) Shamal on Earth and Signum Elsewhere can talk (using the Klair Wind) ... except for with Hayate, it is more of .. though their link (which was previously through YnS but now would be direct. ... Or the wierd telepathic link some have, being able to talk to one another despire being worlds apart...
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Old 2007-02-10, 19:36   Link #2044
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There's actually no real indication that the Volkenritter are getting energy from Hayate. They have their own Linker Cores that are wholly separate from Hayate's own.

They might be something new.
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Old 2007-02-10, 20:54   Link #2045
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Arisa and Suzuka could get reintroduced with a civil/faction war scenario. Imagine: Anti-TSAB group recovers relics and burns cities to the ground with some sort of summon in terrorist acts. The Hayate special division is created to counter this group..
Actually, if you want a conflict between the TSAB and Nanoha's friends & family from Earth, the backstory is already part of the series. Look at the actions taken by Admiral Lindy in the first two series:

- She assumed the right to conduct an investigation, which included sending units of her armed forces to initiate fighting on the territory of a SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDANT planet which had made no treaties with her goverment and had given no permission for the foreign "country" of TSAB to do so.

- She decided to allow Fate & Arf to continue with their forced activation of the last six Jewel Seeds in order to let them exhaust or kill themselves, so that her crew would be at less risk when they moved in to arrest them. That decision was based in part on the fact that the six JS's weren't going to cause a dimensional dislocation, which could pose a threat to the fabric of dimensional space and possibly worlds/people OUTSIDE of Earth. It apparently did NOT matter to Lindy that the energies and storms being thrown around could threaten the people ON the Earth itself.

- Her "final solution" in A's. If the Trio hadn't come up with the actual solution used, she had the option Admiral Graham had created (freezing the defense program with Durandal), but the option SHE invented was to fire a weapon that had a blast radius of several hundred miles on the target that was maybe a DOZEN miles off the coast of a major city on Earth. And she (apparently) just assumed she had the right to decide that 500,000-1 Million innocent people on the aforementioned independant and sovereign world should die to protect HER government's worlds.

- Lastly, her conversation with Admiral Leti in the elevator about Graham. Now, Graham had planned to imprison an citizen of Earth for eternity without trial or even a crime committed by her, and assaulted at least one other citizen of Earth (Nanoha) as well as inducing YnS to attack and greatly damage a city on Earth. But what did Lindy say he was guilty of? Just "intefering with an investigation and some hacking". In other words, is Lindy saying that crimes against citizens of the planet Earth AREN'T CRIMES AT ALL?

Gah, this turned into a rant. Sorry. But you can see that there are plot threads that could be used to create a "TSAB vs Earth" situation with poor Nanoha caught in the middle.
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Old 2007-02-10, 23:31   Link #2046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loner
- Her "final solution" in A's. If the Trio hadn't come up with the actual solution used, she had the option Admiral Graham had created (freezing the defense program with Durandal), but the option SHE invented was to fire a weapon that had a blast radius of several hundred miles on the target that was maybe a DOZEN miles off the coast of a major city on Earth. And she (apparently) just assumed she had the right to decide that 500,000-1 Million innocent people on the aforementioned independant and sovereign world should die to protect HER government's worlds.
I'd do the same. It's not a nice decision, sure, but sometimes hard decisions need to be made, that's why she gets paid a lot of money to make those decisions. Think about the consequences of not firing that weapon. The berserk defense programs goes completely nuts and basically just swallows up the entire planet, killing everyone and everything. It's the lesser of two evils. Ok, so she's doing it mostly to protect her own important things, more than Earth itself, but even so.

I generally agree on the other points though, it seems they have a view of the earth very much similar to that of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Mostly Harmless and not worth thinking about
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Old 2007-02-10, 23:51   Link #2047
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This is the difference between Nanoha and other Magical Girl series. Sometimes ugly things have to be done because there IS no other alternative. Sacrifice a city to prevent a relic from cracking the planet's crust like an egg? It's a scary choice to make... but sometimes choices like that just might pop up.
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Old 2007-02-11, 00:00   Link #2048
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Yeah, but not using Graham's plan in the first place was stupid. They didn't know that the Book didn't want to be killing everything and that the master could work with it to separate from the defense program. If everything had gone the way it had absolutely every single other time, the Book would have killed Nanoha and then Hayate, Fate, and probably a good billion people would have died during the orbital bombardment.

Basically, their behavior doesn't make much sense unless you already know that the Good Guys Will Win Somehow and Everything Will Turn Out All Right. Sloppy writing.


I'm less inclined to agree on the other points. Violating Japan's sovereignty (without them ever knowing about it, and when no normal diplomatic channels existed to use in the first place) to save billions of lives? Oh freaking no.

The last point is totally off; Aria and Lotte set up a barrier when the Book awoke; it only failed when Chrono bound them. Nothing would have happened to the city if Chrono hadn't messed everything up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiosity
I generally agree on the other points though, it seems they have a view of the earth very much similar to that of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Mostly Harmless and not worth thinking about
See, I tend to see them as trying to specifically avoid cultural contamination while still protecting Earth from powers beyond its ken. Benevolent and enlightened.
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Old 2007-02-11, 01:45   Link #2049
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Apparently Velka magic does exist in present day Mid, but it is modern Velka as opposed to ancient oldschool type Velka that Hayate practices.
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Old 2007-02-11, 03:22   Link #2050
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'm less inclined to agree on the other points. Violating Japan's sovereignty (without them ever knowing about it, and when no normal diplomatic channels existed to use in the first place) to save billions of lives? Oh freaking no.
Also we can have all reason to believe that the Japanese government (and all other governments) would viewed the TSAB fleet with hostility and suspicion. In the best scenario they would just drag things on while trying to decide whether or not to trust this powerful and unknown organisation, impeding the TSAB's work. In the worst scenario, they might decide to capture this source of power (YnS) to further their own means, without knowing what sort of trouble they would be inviting by doing so. (Imaine the Knights massacring the Defense Forces in order to protect Hayate, and the kind of situation that would lead to).

I think regarding Loner's first point, it's not as if Earth nations don't do the same as well. We just keep very quiet about it, that's all (if it's known to the public, then it's a failure, no? )

As for the second point, let's see it this way. Lindy's responsibilities aren't just limited to Earth, but to all the other worlds under the TSAB's observance. If she can limit the damage to within Earth alone without adverse effects to the other worlds, she would, no, she have to do it. Nasty, but so is with other political and military decisions.

Quote:
See, I tend to see them as trying to specifically avoid cultural contamination while still protecting Earth from powers beyond its ken. Benevolent and enlightened.
Hmm, sort of like the Protoss or Xel Naga?
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Old 2007-02-11, 03:40   Link #2051
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(Something about that reminds of of the Zerg...)

Well, it is not as if Earth in itself can pose as a significant threat if it possesses no technology that can warp space-time. The ability to self-detonate isn't going to hurt 'anyone else', as opposed to the headache that is lost logia.
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Old 2007-02-11, 05:30   Link #2052
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Near the end of A's, I was hoping Shamal could be in some sort of romantic relationship.

Yuno/Chrono(Or any other male character) carrying Shamal out of a wedding chapel after getting married is actually not a bad thought.
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Old 2007-02-11, 07:03   Link #2053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
There's actually no real indication that the Volkenritter are getting energy from Hayate. They have their own Linker Cores that are wholly separate from Hayate's own.

They might be something new.
yep they have been separated from the book which begs the question...why dont they age still? i would imagine being separate from the book would have only made them human (somewat) as they are no longer "programs?" but now have a life being freed from their bonds ~
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Old 2007-02-11, 07:13   Link #2054
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If you think about it... an organic lifeform is a program in itself, controlled by the programming of gene sequences which is formed from DNA. I suppose that the magical programs used for the Wolkenritter also affected certain genome sequences in their physical bodies. So even though they are seperated from the YnS, their "programming" as static age beings remain unchanged, which is why they don't grow up or age.
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Old 2007-02-11, 14:14   Link #2055
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
yep they have been separated from the book which begs the question...why dont they age still? i would imagine being separate from the book would have only made them human (somewat) as they are no longer "programs?" but now have a life being freed from their bonds ~
Being freed from their bonds to the book won't automatically create an aging routine into their programs that didn't exist before. Remember, they were created as programs with a form that mimic'd humans; there was no reason for YnS, which would exist for hundreds if not thousands of years, to encode the Wolkenritter so that they would age (and eventually become useless due to the effects of old age).
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Old 2007-02-11, 14:23   Link #2056
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meh probably i was thinking too much i was thinking that their might be a possibllity for the knights to have once exsisted as humans before being transformed into the programs (thinking about fate/stay night and the holy grail) ~ but obviously if they were solely just programs from the start then their data wont change from being separated ~ but i wonder where they got their own linker cores from?
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Old 2007-02-11, 16:29   Link #2057
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
There's actually no real indication that the Volkenritter are getting energy from Hayate. They have their own Linker Cores that are wholly separate from Hayate's own.

They might be something new.
But they're part of the Book, and the Book did get energy from Hayate.

I could have sworn I had read a direct quote to the effect that their energy is limited the day I made that post but I can't seem to find it...

There is the much more ambiguous line in the anime where Shamal is worrying about the amount of magic Signum is using... sounds like she can run out or otherwise deplete herself more easily than a human, but it's hardly cut-and-dried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowegear
If you think about it... an organic lifeform is a program in itself, controlled by the programming of gene sequences which is formed from DNA. I suppose that the magical programs used for the Wolkenritter also affected certain genome sequences in their physical bodies. So even though they are seperated from the YnS, their "programming" as static age beings remain unchanged, which is why they don't grow up or age.
Or their bodies could just be direct realizations of the program and static for that reason. After all, they're created whole-cloth by the Book every time it's reborn, I'd expect them to have a high degree of artificiality.
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Old 2007-02-12, 01:51   Link #2058
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Wonder if the three of them will appear in this new series much.... From what I see, they might not get a lot of chance to appear in this series...
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Old 2007-02-12, 07:17   Link #2059
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I think they have a fairly good chance, given that if the squads mentioned earlier hold up at least Signum and Vita will play a role.
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Old 2007-02-12, 07:21   Link #2060
Estavali
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I was thinking about my theory of the Wolkenritter not needing to know "every trick in the book". Another idea (supporting this theory) that came to me was that it is possible that the Knights were originally created by one of the original Meisters (not necessarily the one who corrupted the Tome) to support him/her in a fight.

While the Meister can be assumed to be very strong to start with, having a team would make things much easier in a scrape, especially if s/he is dealing with mobs, or strong teams. The Meister would be the centre, directing and co-ordinating the the team. Each Knight would serve a different purpose in the overall performance of the team, and the Meister would only need to bestow whatever powers/skills that were necessary for them to function, and no more.
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