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Old 2006-08-12, 00:07   Link #1
4Tran
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Lacus' Assassination (Redux)

I've seen the matter of Lacus' assassination attempt clog up a few threads. It's an interesting enough matter to explore on it's own, so I hope that discussion of it can move here instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
I don't know why some people just kept on denying the fact that Dilly was the mastermind. Even if Lacus and co. had only slight suspicion of him, surely the appearance of Meer later would have connected most dots, if not complete.

Lets be logical here. These were Coordinator commandos, piloting the newest amphibious MS. Then there was PLANT, still governed at the time by a virtual dictatorship. Obviously, only Dilly had the power to pull all those strings.

Sure, one assasination attempt is nothing compared to an entire war, but if the target in question had the capacity to change the tides of war, that makes things different. Lacus had that power, so did Kira (regardless of how much fairy dust they had). Durandal not only once, but several times during the series uttered to himself, stating how 'troublesome' the existence of Lacus and Kira was.

Anyway, according to an interview of GSD producers, a question was asked:

Q: Did the chairman initiated the assasination of Lacus Clyne?
A: More than likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
All you're saying is that he has a motive and the resource to orchestrate the assassination... take that to court and see if you can prove anyone guilty just because one has motive and the resource to commit the crime.

I never deny the fact that Dullindal has the possiblity of being the mastermind. But there is no proof that he is, and imo, that's good, because you don't always know the whole story in a situation like war.

Dully used Meer to acquire more public momentu for his cause, so what? That doesn't make him a villian.

And like I said even if he had assasinated Lacus, he'd still not really considered a villian, as like you have said what's one life in a war.

A life is a life. All lives are equal. Just because Lacus is powerful, doesn't make killing her any more sinful or wicked. In fact, the fact that she hold so much power on her whim, makes assassinating her seems almost reasonable. Lacus is known for being a rouge force who does whatever she feels is right with her overpowered gundam and STOLEN military resource. Getting her off the scene almost seems like the most rational thing to do, if one plans to achieve an ideal of his own... (rather than being a Lacus puppet).

btw, more than likely is not "Yes, he did." There is still uncertainty there. They could have said Yes he did, but even the producer prefer to keep it a little ambigious and imo, again not a bad thing.
Durandal is the only suspect as the mastermind of Lacus' assassination. There are simply no either viable possibilities. This makes it as much of an open and close case as it is possible without the show telling us outright that he was responsible. This is sort of the point of subtlety: to suggest something very strongly without revealing it outright.

If my national leader killed his opponent for political gain, then it is a clearly murder. Murder is, by definition, an inherently evil act. Hence, anyone performing murder is evil. There are a very few mitigating conditions that can absolved the amount of evil in a particular act of murder, but the assassination of Lacus does not qualify for any of these conditions. In Durandal's case, he failed, so his crime is reduced to that of attempted murder. However, the morality of his act is pretty much unchanged.
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Old 2006-08-12, 00:33   Link #2
Nightengale
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First off, while Dullindal was being potrayed as a subtle villian, the mechanics behind his coordinations that rely on lies, manipulation, backstabs, opportunistic timings among other things automatically qualify him as an evil villian and some people find it hard to swallow that he, in the very beginning was already destined to be the evil villian. I'd say that GSD tried hard to make him subtle even when he really isn't.

The reasoning behind Lacus's assasination can be seen through clearly and easily, with solid reasons to believe that Dullindal does it, even without evidence. But evidential proof would just make the series meaningless, as the series concept of GSD applies the idea that the right may not be totally right and the wrong may not be totally wrong. Gilly caused a fair share of deaths from being the mastermind behind Break the World, ignoring Requiem and Destroy, but in a way, they're potraying him in the manner where he thinks the sacrifices justify the end of a world without wars, while the right believes that just because the end result may turn out good, they do not believe in a world that must be created with so much blood shed.

Dullindal was guilty of everything. The anime implied it subtly, the GSD producers outright admited it, and Astray proved how he did all that, from Force Persuading Canard to kill a Kira that wasn't even a MS pilot yet to having moles in Logos.

Seriously, Phase 1 should've ticked people off easily. He smirked. Bad guys always smirk like that.
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Old 2006-08-12, 02:53   Link #3
Anh_Minh
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I'll repost what I wrote in the other thread:

Spoiler:


And I agree with Nightengale about Dully. He looked and sounded like a villain since Phase 1. The only question was, how much shit he had going on at the time.


I - sort of - disagree with Dully being the only suspect. It's a big world. It could have been anyone with enough ressources and a grudge from the first war, for example. Dully's just the only suspect we see in the anime. And, yes, the prime suspect, after that Meer thing.
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Old 2006-08-12, 03:04   Link #4
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Well its like the same for Sigil Clyne.

And in the episode where Meer died, Lacus was the primary target and its clearly Dullindal's plan.
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Old 2006-08-12, 03:33   Link #5
Tak
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Ah, Nightengale reminded me again of what I missed. Yes, ASTRAY. The very tome to fill the gaps that we call 'plot holes'. Canard was there to kill Kira at one point, he later ceased his activities and left. Regardless, he was persuaded by Dully to do so.

Yes, a life is a life. Losing a life is tragic, and Lacus or Kira's life would have been no different than say, Mayu or Shinn's life if, of course, no politics were involved. Unfortunately, in the bloody world of politics, various lives have various weight. That is a simple fact. If Canard succeeded at that point, there would not have been a Second Bloody Valentine War. It'd be an all-out invasion of Earth, with Dully dangling Lacus' dead corpse on a treetop as a victory trophy.

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Old 2006-08-12, 05:31   Link #6
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Y'know, when you think about it, Dully's plan for assination completely lacked any foresight of failure... Having such confidence in your plan is just plain foolish... Using coordinator commandos, giving them the lastest tech, aswell as debuting a lacus-clone at about the same time gives Kira and co enough reasoning to name Dully the top suspect...

I think Dully should have played this assasination plot better, preparing for the possibility of failure and thus find ways to push blame away from him...

for instance:
Using older assasins, with older uniforms, with Older equitment (ginns, GHOONs)... Add in a soldier giving a good "viva la' Zala" and your setting up Patrick Zala Terrorists to take the fall... It would also help if you set up one or two other "surprise" terror attacks Just to make the attack on Lacus by Zala followers all the more convincing... Afterall, the Zala Followers at Junius 7 were older soldiers using older equitment (since that's all they could get), and they have plenty of reason to want Lacus dead since she is one of the poeple responsable for Zala's downfall...

Grant it, in addition to setting up terrorist to take all the blame, Dully would also need to have better timing on playing his Lacus-clone... Playing it right after the assasination would still place Dully in suspicion, however playing the clone a month or so afterward would have lessen the blow of suspicion, bringing it down to possible coincidence or Dully just being an opporutnist... While the latter sounds much better, the flaw is that if the assasins don't kill all the wittnesses, Kira and such could report Lacus's death, and that would put some serious damage in the Lacus-clone plan...

Heck, after the death plot failed, Dully could have taken a step furthar and actually formed a fasle Zala terrorist group... the groups pure objective is to use randam terrorism to keep Lacus and archangle far off Dully's trail... ofcourse said group would have to made up of soldiers prepared to comit die like the assasins, so to make sure they are ready to be attacked by both enemy and even ally attacks, and to ensure the truth is never revealed... but going to such lengths maybe too far, and could be prone to error, such as one of them going awol...

So ya, since miracles and plotholes were bound to fail the assasination plot, at the very least Dully still could have prepared for popssible failure and taken the steps to shift blame far away from him...
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Old 2006-08-12, 05:53   Link #7
Anh_Minh
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Heck, if you want to go like that, he'd been preparing Meer for months, so I'm going to guess he'd been planning to kill Lacus for just as long. He should have arranged a quiet accident for her much earlier. Maybe even before he recruited Meer - "Lacus is dead, but we mustn't let the populace know, or they'll lose morale" sounds a lot better than "Want to usurp your idol's identity, be my mouthpiece, and use her influence to serve my own dark designs?".

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2006-08-12 at 10:10.
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Old 2006-08-12, 09:58   Link #8
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I personally believe Gilbert messed up the assasination attempt for only one reason; lack of information.

As an interview with GSD staff pointed out, Gilbert knew about Terminal all alone. He knew there is serious infiltration of Lacus loyalists in his ranks, but Gilbert was never able to weed them out. Further, Gilbert was also not able to infiltrate Terminal at all, and thus lack any information concerning what Lacus is capable of.

(Here is my hypothetical scenario. Thus no more than a product of my imagination.)

When Lacus was forced to relocate to an Orb sea-side mansion, due to the tsunami destroying her previous island residence, Gilbert believed that he had an opportunity to catch Lacus off-guard. He had old floor-plans of the building, and the sea-side distant location allows an amphibious assault that is outside the public eye. He knows very well that Kira is with her, but Gilbert doesn't believe there is any time for Lacus to set up any decent defenses if she only recently "borrowed" this Athha real estate.
Just in case, he brought out his special-forces troops and decked them out in the best weapons he can give secretly.

The original plan: To kill Lacus unawares. (failed due to Pink-chan being linked to the security system.)

The secondary plan: To kill Lacus by storming the place. (failed due to unexpected resistance and her running into a bunker which they knew exists.)

The backup plan: To kill Lacus by blowing up the house and tear the bunker apart with concentrated MS fire. (Failed because Intelligence didn't realise there was a Freedom hanger beneath the bunker itself.)

Granted, it is true that Gilbert should have been more careful. But perhaps he didn't have time? If he believed that Lacus was unprotected for a short while, it's natural for Gilbert to assume that she would soon either move elsewhere or increase defenses. Thus, he had to strike very quickly and gamble everything on the act.

In essence, Freedom Gundam was what wrecked everything. Gilbert didn't know where it was, perhaps believing it to still be in outer-space with Eternal. Ironically, it is likely because Gilbert didn't realise how devious Lacus was, that he lost. To hide a powerful weapon in the basement of the private property of the present Orb sovereign is not a very legit thing to do, but that's exactly why no one outside Terminal knew about it.

(End speculation)
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Old 2006-08-12, 10:35   Link #9
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1 important factor to consider is that following ORB's alliance with the EA, Dullindal, being the smart-ass he is must've predicted that Lacus and co. would go up to PLANT, most probably through public transport. That alone would've caused a major hindrance in his plans, and it was something he needed to deal with quickly, and he probably pushed ahead and sent the ASHes.

Frankly, the ASH plan wasn't bad by any means. Considering the situation given and the outline of who the opponents were, I'd say Gilbert was already very cautious by sending state of the art MS, something that if done wrongly, could've provoked a major problem and added more flame into something that's already burning between ORB/EA and PLANT. Seriously, who would've thought that the mansion had l33t security system and Freedom under it?

Though, I often question one thing about this whole assassination plot. Who is actually more important to Gilbert, Kira or Lacus? It's without a doubt that Lacus was the primary target during the ASH Raid due to Meer, but from the signs thrown in both SE Destiny and Astray and the later half of GSD (( when Gilbert was pimping the awesomeness and ill-fate of Kira for not polishing his skills that would've made him superior to what he already was )), it seems that Gilbert held Kira at an extremely high regard, seemingly much more than Lacus.
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Old 2006-08-12, 10:48   Link #10
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Though, I often question one thing about this whole assassination plot. Who is actually more important to Gilbert, Kira or Lacus? It's without a doubt that Lacus was the primary target during the ASH Raid due to Meer, but from the signs thrown in both SE Destiny and Astray and the later half of GSD (( when Gilbert was pimping the awesomeness and ill-fate of Kira for not polishing his skills that would've made him superior to what he already was )), it seems that Gilbert held Kira at an extremely high regard, seemingly much more than Lacus.
This is when Chess analogy comes in .

Gender-wise, Kira is the King and Lacus the Queen. But in terms of firepower and actual role in the story, Lacus is the King instead.

It is true Kira is the most powerful weapon under Lacus's disposal. He is her private guard, the final defense line. But fundamentally the greatest threat Gilbert faces is not from Kira but Lacus. The goal of Chess is not to remove your opponent's firepower, but to win the game. To defeat the Queen is only a means to such a victory, and not the true goal itself.

Death of Lacus will cause internal panic in Terminal. The loss of the leader will cause squabble and infighting, during which time Gilbert's counterintelligence team will be better able to weeding out Terminal members or to implant a spy of their own.

Kira might be a mighty sword, but Lacus is the hand that wields it.
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Old 2006-08-12, 10:51   Link #11
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If not Durandal then who? Who has any reason for killing Lacus besides him? That's my question to people who think Durandal didn't do it.
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Old 2006-08-12, 10:58   Link #12
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Gilberts ass did it and every 1 knows it.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:12   Link #13
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Disgruntled politicians tired of Lacus Clyne? People displaced from positions of power because of Lacus Clyne? Supporters of Patrick Zala? Orb people who'd rather find the easy way out and ditch Lacus to the PLANTs? Heck, there are lots of suspects.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:13   Link #14
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlayerX
Y'know, when you think about it, Dully's plan for assination completely lacked any foresight of failure... Having such confidence in your plan is just plain foolish... Using coordinator commandos, giving them the lastest tech, aswell as debuting a lacus-clone at about the same time gives Kira and co enough reasoning to name Dully the top suspect...
His plan wasn't necessarily so poor. It may have been a case of doing the best with what he had at that moment. There's no reason to assume that Durandal had infinite resources at his disposal or that he had a whole lot of time to plan the operation to begin with. Durandal had to hide this attack, not only from foreigners, but his own people as well nobody who wasn't completely loyal to him could be allowed to know anything about it.

In addition, the ASHs may have been the only mobile suits that had the requisite range and stealth to pull off the operation. Alternatively, they were the only mobile suits Durandal could use without attracting attention from the rest of ZAFT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
As an interview with GSD staff pointed out, Gilbert knew about Terminal all alone. He knew there is serious infiltration of Lacus loyalists in his ranks, but Gilbert was never able to weed them out. Further, Gilbert was also not able to infiltrate Terminal at all, and thus lack any information concerning what Lacus is capable of.
This has been confirmed? Excellent, it's exactly what I've been thinking all along.

My theory is very similar to Vallen Chaos Valiant's. The main difference is that I think that it was very much an attack of opportunity. Lacus basically disappeared after the Cosmic Era 71 war. It's conceivable that Durandal simply didn't even know where she was until she was forced to move to the house in Orb. He took that opportunity as it presented itself because he had no idea when he would have another chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Though, I often question one thing about this whole assassination plot. Who is actually more important to Gilbert, Kira or Lacus? It's without a doubt that Lacus was the primary target during the ASH Raid due to Meer, but from the signs thrown in both SE Destiny and Astray and the later half of GSD (( when Gilbert was pimping the awesomeness and ill-fate of Kira for not polishing his skills that would've made him superior to what he already was )), it seems that Gilbert held Kira at an extremely high regard, seemingly much more than Lacus.
This is an extremely good point. I have the feeling that Gilbert got a little too caught up in what he thought Kira would be capable of. In the beginning he had the right idea that Lacus presented the greatest threat to him, but I thought that he lost sight of that as soon as he referred to Kira as the "king". I feel that this is the greatest strategic mistake he made during the war.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:16   Link #15
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Disgruntled politicians tired of Lacus Clyne? People displaced from positions of power because of Lacus Clyne? Supporters of Patrick Zala? Orb people who'd rather find the easy way out and ditch Lacus to the PLANTs? Heck, there are lots of suspects.
You forgot: As far as we know, all mortal enemies of Lacus Clyne are 6 feet under. Anyone else who wants her dead would be after the false Lacus, Meer.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:24   Link #16
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How very convenient.

And since they know (for some magical, obscure reason) that Meer is so NOT Lacus, they have a chance to strike again. Not all people could be easily dissuaded from doing something, just because some of its players are killed off. As long as an ideal holds true, or a belief (in this case, kill Lacus), there are still other people who could do this for them.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:27   Link #17
Anh_Minh
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Nightengale: I disagree. The ASH thing was a stupid plan. They should have spent more time observing Lacus. They'd have found out she sometimes (often? ) went out unguarded, they should have attacked her there.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:35   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
1.Disgruntled politicians tired of Lacus Clyne?
2.People displaced from positions of power because of Lacus Clyne?
3.Supporters of Patrick Zala?
4.Orb people who'd rather find the easy way out and ditch Lacus to the PLANTs? Heck, there are lots of suspects.
1. Lacus was retired by GSD. They would prefer to stay out of Lacus's way than go to the trouble and risk of trying to kill her.

2. People without power has no access to commando Coordinator squads and state of the art MS.

3. Insurgents can't buy super new MS just recently deployed from the black market, because it's not yet available for sale. I'm surprised if ZAKUs are for sale, much less newer ASHes.

4. Jona made it clear he doesn't really care that much about Cagalli's playtime with Athrun, Cagalli's brother Kira, so why should Lacus be any different? Mina was totally out in GSD and other ORB royals aren't even in the show.

There's tons of suspects, true. We can even suspect that Al Da Flagga who actually survived the fire tried to assassinate Lacus. We can even suspect Rey whose actually harbouring Raww's soul who wants to kill Lacus because he failed in SEED. We can even suspect LOGOS, whom Kira and co. didn't even know existed. From those they knew, Dullindal was the most liable suspect.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:39   Link #19
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
How very convenient.

And since they know (for some magical, obscure reason) that Meer is so NOT Lacus, they have a chance to strike again. Not all people could be easily dissuaded from doing something, just because some of its players are killed off. As long as an ideal holds true, or a belief (in this case, kill Lacus), there are still other people who could do this for them.
Who said anything about a deterant? The old enemies are dead, that's all.

All the people who are in the position to know Meer is a fake (and is not on Terminal's side) is involved with Gilbert. Anyone not with Gilbert who wants Lacus dead will look for her in PLANT first, where they will find Meer instead. Thus, no one else but Gilbert's people would have looked for her in Orb.
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Old 2006-08-12, 11:55   Link #20
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Well, you just can't assume THAT entirely. For all we know, those people with Dully are just there so that they're safe before they plan a backstab at Dully or gaining honor and prestige on their own. And the people around Cagalli, too. I was just totally mystified as to how Yuuna found out about Kira when it's supposed to be a secret. So, you can't even trust the emirs.
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