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Old 2006-08-12, 12:03   Link #21
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Well, you just can't assume THAT entirely. For all we know, those people with Dully are just there so that they're safe before they plan a backstab at Dully or gaining honor and prestige on their own. And the people around Cagalli, too. I was just totally mystified as to how Yuuna found out about Kira when it's supposed to be a secret. So, you can't even trust the emirs.
That's why Lacus likely withheld information from even Cagalli; the emirs can't be trusted, and Cagalli is just too damn honest to keep secrets.

You know what my friend suggested in jest ? All the good politicians in Orb died with Cagalli's dad when Orb got invaded the first time. While the leftover evil politicians of Orb died from the burrowing UTA/TE-6P Geo-GOOhN when they were sheltered in the underground bunker from the second Orb invasion.

Thus, Cagalli is the only one left to run the place. (not counting Astray characters)

#######
Anyway, back to your point.

The reason why the people trying to kill Lacus couldn't be traitors within Terminal, is because the attackers had horrible intelligence sources, and as such had no idea Freedom is under the building. As for Kira? Kira is an open-secret. he is harmless politically, at least compared to Lacus and her military arsenal.
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Old 2006-08-12, 12:05   Link #22
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
@ Anh_Minh
What's the use of tying up loose strings with a manga? If they really meant to show Dully as evil, there is no need to sidestep or give rather vague answers; just show Dully up for the evil villain that he is.
As I said, the show was still going on at the time. The best they could do was to give vague answers, and providing hints. After all, they aren't allowed to spoil the ending, are they? As far as the manga goes, its as official as it can get, and considered canon. The manga showed Dully was the mastermind behind many incidents that occured in GSD, even those he pretended he knew nothing of, and Astray had always been there to tie up loose ends.

If you choose to ignore it, well, what can I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
As for the Astrays, yes, it made sense as to how Kira survived that Strike explosion and how Dully is teh evil mastermind ONEONEONEONE~~~~!!!1111 all over it. But seriously speaking, writing a good story does not mean that we could produce magical explanations for all that crap out of thin air by way of something that was also going on at the same time. Writing a good story makes manga, not the other way around (in reference to some anime so good it spawned graphic novels)...
Well, please blame FATkuda and his wife for everything that transpired. Heck, he probably purposely left plot holes wide open so that people will buy the ASTRAY manga. Its a marketing strategy, just like how he had Dearka switch sides because the Buster Gundam was selling poorly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Saying Dully is evil just because a random group of "Coordinators with high tech MS" suddenly decide to storm an orphanage out of thin air and decided to assassinate the lovely Pink Princess...for all we know, the assassination attempt at that point in time could be ordered by...
Random? They are hardly random. Very well trained in fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
  • EAF (drugged looks of those "Coordinators" and the fact that they could bribe ZAFT top brass if they don't want Dully as much as they don't want Lacus Clyne)
  • LOGOS (members who don't want the EAF as much as they don't want Lacus Clyne)
  • random Orb people (knowing about Lacus Clyne's stay in Orb along with Kira Yamato and that this makes their chances of becoming powerful enough to topple the emir-hood of Cagalli virtually non-existent)
  • a rabid Patrick Zala fanatic (a couple of them are still in ZAFT and made sure Junius Seven would fall onto the earth one way or the other)
1. Those were camouflage, not drugs. In fact, the EAF knew little, if nothing of PLANT's pop idol.

2. LOGOS would have had more intellegence than the Federation. Even so, Jibriel is hardly a suspect, since he was amused, if not downright surprised to see Lacus Clyne. He even proposed an alliance, until Lacus stated that she wouldn't side with LOGOS.

3. Hardly. 'These' random ORB people didn't even know about the Archangel, didn't even know about the Freedom, let alone Lacus or Kira, who at that point, where presumbly living under false identities (like Athrun, and the former AA crews). Hell, if they were smart enough, they would have faked a Coord attempt and killed Athrun first, which would have forced Cagali to join the Federation regardless. With that, they might even provoke a conflict (if not war) between Lacus and Cagali!

4. That could be possible, then again, they'd require Dully's cooperation to pull that off. According to the manga, Dully was an admirer of Patrick Zala. That and nobody had access to Coord commandos, or state of the art MS. If you claim black market, well, I am sorry, but there are no evidence or supporting claim to back your statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
What of those high tech MS? Hell, you could get them at a black market if you're really desperate. If any, Kira and Lacus are guilty of generalizing and stereotyping (just because Dully didn't feel right...wth). Who the heck are they kidding?
Why do you presume you can acquire high-tech weaponry at black markets that easily? That is totally illogical if not downright a ridiculous assumption. Do you presume people can acquire F-16s on the black market if they wanted to? Of course not, let alone Gundams! Especially when these just barely rolled off the supply line. Not to mention they were present during the invasion of ORB.

Of course Kira and Lacus needed to make assumptions. Something simply doesn't feel right. They never outright stated that Dully was evil, but they weren't going back to PLANT as Andy originally suggessted. However, by the time Lacus & Kira saw Meer on screen, they were connecting dots, and you can't blame them for doing so, because its only logical that they had suspicions. Then as the events unfold, it turned out they were right.

Dully had the whole thing on his palm all along. He tried acting surprised, but it was him who was behind a majority of events. Sure, he wasn't as racist as Patrick nor as psycho as Rau, but he wanted to defeat the Federation, first and foremost, and create a world in his vision. If it wasn't for Lacus & co showing up to stop him, he might have succeeded. Not only once did he utter: "Lacus & Kira, what troublesome existence..."

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-12, 12:13   Link #23
Anh_Minh
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If we're going to list absurd suspects, mine is Kira. He staged it all, either in an effort to impress Lacus, or to get rid of her and enter a three-way relationship with Athrun and Cagalli (yaoi and incest!). He got the money and connection from his Supppah Hackah skillz.
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Old 2006-08-12, 12:42   Link #24
Eidolon Sniper
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@ Vallen

Maybe they were all playing along, lol.

But why raid that particular orphanage? And given Dully's immense intelligence sources as to Sith rape Shinn from the day he started at the ZAFT Academy, why would they be surprised to find Freedom hiding beneath that building?

Kira is a threat, he's not harmless. Besides, if Lacus loses her sword, she's a goner. Athrun at that point is being mind raped by Dully into becoming his yesman. So, if Kira is gone, and Athrun is the Padawan of Dully, Lacus on her own is no match against Dully (except maybe those rabid DOM fans of hers). It is only by Kira's strength and Athrun's that she actually made a difference in the CE; without them, she is totally powerless.
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Old 2006-08-12, 12:56   Link #25
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
@ Vallen

Maybe they were all playing along, lol.

But why raid that particular orphanage? And given Dully's immense intelligence sources as to Sith rape Shinn from the day he started at the ZAFT Academy, why would they be surprised to find Freedom hiding beneath that building?

Kira is a threat, he's not harmless. Besides, if Lacus loses her sword, she's a goner. Athrun at that point is being mind raped by Dully into becoming his yesman. So, if Kira is gone, and Athrun is the Padawan of Dully, Lacus on her own is no match against Dully (except maybe those rabid DOM fans of hers). It is only by Kira's strength and Athrun's that she actually made a difference in the CE; without them, she is totally powerless.
You are asking me why? No one would want to, of course, except for Gilbert who knows Lacus is not Meer.
And as I mentioned above, it's confirmed that Gilbert knew ahead of time about Terminal, but he was unable to plant spies within it nor weed out Terminal's agents in ZAFT. That's why Gilbert doesn't know about Freedom (or didn't you read my last few posts? )

As for Kira? He is powerful, but Terminal can exist without him. The war would be much more difficult, like a player who suddenly lost his Queen on the chessboard. But it would not be the end. Athrun and Kira were Lacus's main weapons in Gundam Seed, but not GSDestiny.
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Old 2006-08-12, 13:10   Link #26
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One thing to note is that the assassination team could have been hunting for Lacus ever since Patrick Zala was around. Even if Dullindal had dispatched them, he wouldn't be committing murder for assassinating someone who committed treason against PLANT/ZAFT (which is what she did no matter how you look at it). And unless those charges were magically waved, they wouldn't have been hiding out...
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Old 2006-08-12, 13:13   Link #27
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
One thing to note is that the assassination team could have been hunting for Lacus ever since Patrick Zala was around. Even if Dullindal had dispatched them, he wouldn't be committing murder for assassinating someone who committed treason against PLANT/ZAFT (which is what she did no matter how you look at it). And unless those charges were magically waved, they wouldn't have been hiding out...
Of course the charges were waved. Otherwise Meer would be captured and executed.

Or did Gilbert intentionally want PLANT to think he is politically supported by a traitor?
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Old 2006-08-12, 13:14   Link #28
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
And unless those charges were magically waved, they wouldn't have been hiding out...
Well, consdiering that...

Yzak was pardoned
Dearka was pardoned
Athrun was pardoned

I wouldn't be surprised if Lacus was pardoned too, especially when she was instrumental in ending the first war, not to mention it was her faction who instigated the peace talks.

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Old 2006-08-12, 13:17   Link #29
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Tak
Well, consdiering that...

Yzak was pardoned
Dearka was pardoned
Athrun was pardoned

I wouldn't be surprised if Lacus was pardoned too, especially when she was instrumental in ending the first war, not to mention it was her faction who instigated the peace talks.

- Tak
Not to mention Gilbert, the nation's leader, is financing "Lacus"'s concerts. If Deacon Blues genuinely believes that Lacus is still being hunted for treason, what's with the public concerts then? Or the pink Zaku? I have no idea how his ideas could possibly make any sense.
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Old 2006-08-12, 17:09   Link #30
SoldierOfDarkness
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Technically speaking I think people are just delving way too deep into this.

It's obvious that Gilbert would be the only one that would benefit the most from it. And I'm not gonna bother delving into it either because it's so obvious.

Logos has nothing to do with it as already mentioned it is impossible. Same with Orb.

EAF is out of the question.

Zala insurgents as we have already seen from Stargazer are revolting all over the place and I doubt they even know where Lacus is. Their more concerned with going postal all over the place and if their stuck to resorting to using children, their obviously short of hands.
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Old 2006-08-12, 17:49   Link #31
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Darn it, Tak beat me to it.

I was just getting annoyed that people were pointing in Logos direction when they had no motive. Gilbert has the motive, and sense the series seems to be built at an axis around him it's quite obvious.
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Old 2006-08-13, 22:25   Link #32
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This stuff is from the "Shinn's Character" thread, but I thought that this is a more appropriate place for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
When did he decide this? Can you give me dates? Comments? Chess movements?? It seems to me most of us who still have some degree of faith in Dully's intial ambiguity still tend to think void of concrete evidence the jury is still out on that $hit...I heard about stuff in ASTRAY that had Dully just one of many different agenda starters prior to Junius 7...The anime just isn't conclusive enuff to me despite it's final characterization of Dullindal...
The fact that Durandal is the only viable suspect for Lacus' assassination is pretty good proof. It's hardly a stretch to claim that the only one capable of a crime is the true culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
Ms. Clynee has her ideals, and Dully has his... Lacus don't like DP so their ideals clash, typical, sincethat's what war has always been about = clash of ideals... So to have Lacus declare Dully as evil is a moot point to me. Of course, every anyone with a political agenda is going to call their opponent evil. So to me, until Dully decide to commit genocide, he was not really evil. But more like, being a politician... yes, propaganda, backstab, assassination, betray, manipulation, those I don't condemn him for because that's what being a politician is about... (which is why I personally don't think Cagalli is suited for that job, someday she'll follow Uzumi's path and get herself killed).
This doesn't make any sense. Being a politician should not absolve anyone of his crimes. I simply can't figure out the reasoning behind this statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
What you say as an in-case faction, I said as a rouge force.
To prevent things from going out of hand? You mean if things don't go Lacus' way.
"Balance of Power?" You mean a total uncertain group with no know platform, driven by one will, and one alone - Lacus. And she is ready and willing to use this force, whenever she deems fit.
PLANT does have a democratic social structure. Each high counsel members are voted in by each city, and then one is voted as the Chairman. The Chairman is still bound (legally) to make decision with the High Counsel, though at the end of both war, the both Chairmen have tried to eluded that process. But this still don't justify why a government should tolerate this one girl who has unprecedent hold on the military without being in the government at all.
This is a pretty good point; Terminal exists as an extragovernmental force. However, it's sort of fallacious to contend that it's a harmful one merely on the basis of whether it's sanctioned by a government or not. In addition, if Durandal felt that it truly was a threat that could not be tolerated, he should have pursued it through legal means. As far as I know, assassination is not a legal course of action in PLANT, so any question of morality based on how the groups conform to PLANT law are effectively moot.
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Old 2006-08-14, 18:13   Link #33
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
This stuff is from the "Shinn's Character" thread, but I thought that this is a more appropriate place for it.
*sigh* 4Tran, I've been avoiding this thread, despite it started with a quote on me... Lacus is not a topic I enjoy analyzing, and nor do I claim to be have studied her (like I did with Cagalli and Shinn) or willing to spend time to either.

In either case, I feel bad that you have to keep moving my comments from the Shinn thread, so I'll try to do my best here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
The fact that Durandal is the only viable suspect for Lacus' assassination is pretty good proof. It's hardly a stretch to claim that the only one capable of a crime is the true culprit.
Being the prime suspect does not make you guilty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
This doesn't make any sense. Being a politician should not absolve anyone of his crimes. I simply can't figure out the reasoning behind this statement.
Propaganda, backstab, betray, manipulation are not crime. Just like lying is not a crime. Assassination is a crime, but only if you have been found guilty. There had been no evidence (in universe) that allow the court to trace back to Dullidal. In fact, by your same logic, Lacus and co had laid no charge. If she was as innocent as some had suggest shouldn't she have try to resolve this legally as well and called the police instead of running into hidding in a war ship then highjack a ZAFT plane, and then secretly produce WMD to conspire against PLANT's chairman.

Both hadn't been playing fair. So why should we praise Lacus and condemn Dully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
This is a pretty good point; Terminal exists as an extragovernmental force. However, it's sort of fallacious to contend that it's a harmful one merely on the basis of whether it's sanctioned by a government or not. In addition, if Durandal felt that it truly was a threat that could not be tolerated, he should have pursued it through legal means. As far as I know, assassination is not a legal course of action in PLANT, so any question of morality based on how the groups conform to PLANT law are effectively moot.
No, it's not a harmful organization only because it's not sanctioned by a government. It's a harmful organization because it's not sanctioned by a government AND has the capability to produce and activate WMD AND has been proven that they WILL use it when they saw fit, even if it means breaking the civil/military laws. And their definition of "When it is Necessary" has no CLEAR platform and is solely based on a personal choice - Lacus.

Persuing through legal means - as I have stated above... had Lacus try to persue Dully through legal mean? Stealing space shuttle, snooping around old labs, creating new WMD are hardly legal either is it?

What I am saying is, if Dully must be condemn for what he did (prior to genocide) then the same label should be applied to Lacus.

On another note, persuing through legal mean for Dully is impossible as (with the little info that I gathered from VCV), that Dully only know that CF had spies in their system (information leak) but was unable to find the source of the leak.

CF also does not have a "front", so to speak. You can't sue anything that is not an established entity within the society (a coporation for example). It's like saying America should just sue Al Qaida for 911. This is another example of why CF is a harmful organization... it isn't a player within the system. It puts itself above the law. It makes Lacus' will the law.

In a sense, you can compare CF or Lacus as Batman or Superman and put it in a realistic (non-super hero setting)... despite their "seemingly" good intention, the fact that they exercise their power as "above" the law is a threat to society.

If Batman kills the criminal before trail is it not murder?

This theme is very well explored in a manga - Death Note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
That's why Lacus likely withheld information from even Cagalli; the emirs can't be trusted, and Cagalli is just too damn honest to keep secrets.
I also agree, and I also think Cagalli realize that as well. Which is why I am keen on thinking that the two actually does not have a close relationship and is likely to fall out if we ever get a 3rd series (not a movie because there's not enough time to explore that).

ps. I am just curious, but am I the only one who doesn't buy the "Lacus doesn't actually have a lot of influence on PLANT ie. CF is not deeply rooted into ZAFT, that most of her military support comes from Orb. I am a bit lazy to rebuttal that as I find that to be ridiculous.... but if more people find that a valid argument I'm willing to debate.

Last edited by cloudedge; 2006-08-14 at 18:26.
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Old 2006-08-14, 18:48   Link #34
Tak
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cloudedge, please calm down.

The core plot to every Gundam franchise is political struggle. There are no absolute good factions just as there are a lack of completely evil ones. Dully and Lacus entered a political struggle that simply ended with Lacus on top. So? Does that mean either of them are inheritly better than the other? No. The producers of GSD had to make Dully into a antagonist figure, simple as that.

Even Lacus and Kira both admitted that they were no longer innoncent. They can't be.

Lacus had every right to suspect PLANT and Dully. She did just that. But she also said "I cannot trust this chairman, though we must wait for things to unfold", meaning she never did hold Dully prime suspect until later when, well, things unfolded.

What people seem to forget, is that ORB represented a fictional Japan. It is an archipelago, has one of the world's most advanced navies but not enough manpower to support it, and has this thing with self-determination. Therefore, Japan has to win. Period.

Next, Gundams are not WMDs. Nukes are WMDs, the Genesis is a WMD, the Cyclopes is a WMD, Freedom/Justice/Destiny are NOT WMDs no matter how powerful they are.

Furthermore, Lacus and Cagali represented ORB. She did not represent PLANT nor ZAFT. Gladys stated it quite clearly "we don't take orders from Lacus". Her influences with PLANT may be deep rooted, but extremely limited, for the CF could never provide enough logistic and material support for her. The only thing she ever had from ZAFT was an Eternal, the Freedom and Justice in addition to three DOMs, all of which were produced in secret. That makes what? Five MS in total.

Most of the grunts and ships that fought alongsidet Lacus and co. during the last war were ORB nationals. How is it so difficult to see this? It was the Murasame production types and ORB fleet ships who faced the brunt of the attacks. Sure, the Joule Fleet eventually joined Lacus (thank Goddess they did), but Yzak was a closet Lacus fan so that was expected of him. Regardless, that was but a fraction of the entire ZAFT fleet. If Lacus had as much as influence you thought she did, there wouldn't even BE a war, and Dully would have faced the firing squad around episode 20, just because Lacus demands it. That didn't happen. Fact is, Lacus' safety while infiltrating PLANT was pretty much guaranteed by her ability to pretend being 'herself'. I'd find that to be somewhat painful, to even have to 'pretend' being yourself. If Lacus had that much influence, she would have just ask her buddies to get her any shuttle and took off.

And how can Lacus pursue a case against Dully legally? Not only is it impossible at that point, but you don't negotiate with talks in a Gundam franchise, not until you have expired all of your war making options. Not to mention she didn't want to be superman or batman, Dully was just dumb enough to make her one. Oops?

Lastly, war is not legal. Its never been legal nor is it fair. You just had to win, and once you do, you make a point.

BUT, if you seek evidence to why Dully is prime suspect and villian of GSD, I really do suggest reading Destiny Astray stuff, they are as official as they can get. The whole point to leaving plot holes like that on the TV series is so that they can sell their mangas. Marketing strategy my friend, marketing strategy.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-14 at 19:35.
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Old 2006-08-14, 23:31   Link #35
4Tran
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As Mr. Paper already said, the question of Lacus' assassination and the morality associated with it have nothing to do with Shinn's character, so it's horribly offtopic there. I pretty much created this thread as a way to explore this topic without interfering with that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
Being the prime suspect does not make you guilty.
That's true, but I didn't call Durandal the prime suspect, I called him the sole suspect. The difference between the two is rather profound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
Propaganda, backstab, betray, manipulation are not crime. Just like lying is not a crime. Assassination is a crime, but only if you have been found guilty. There had been no evidence (in universe) that allow the court to trace back to Dullidal. In fact, by your same logic, Lacus and co had laid no charge. If she was as innocent as some had suggest shouldn't she have try to resolve this legally as well and called the police instead of running into hidding in a war ship then highjack a ZAFT plane, and then secretly produce WMD to conspire against PLANT's chairman.
This isn't really as much a matter of legality as it is a question of morality. No charges have to be laid in this situation for someone to commit immoral deeds. I still don't see why politicians should be immune from this.

Fairness is an almost irrelevant point in what is effectively a civil war. It would have been horribly foolish for Lacus to try to pursue the matter in a court of law (one that Durandal had some influence on, no less). This action should be viewed completely in the context of an internal PLANT power struggle, and Durandal was the one who struck the first blow. As far as I'm concerned, the very moment Durandal attacked Lacus, it was tantamount to a declaration of war, and her supporters were under no obligation to hold themselves back from going after him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudedge
ps. I am just curious, but am I the only one who doesn't buy the "Lacus doesn't actually have a lot of influence on PLANT ie. CF is not deeply rooted into ZAFT, that most of her military support comes from Orb. I am a bit lazy to rebuttal that as I find that to be ridiculous.... but if more people find that a valid argument I'm willing to debate.
I agree with you here. I view the Cosmic Era 73 war as a war of two halves: between PLANT and EA, and a civil war between Durandal and Lacus. I think that Orb's forces only act as part of an alliance in the two conflicts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Next, Gundams are not WMDs. Nukes are WMDs, the Genesis is a WMD, the Cyclopes is a WMD, Freedom/Justice/Destiny are NOT WMDs no matter how powerful they are.
Nitpick: the Cyclops system can only be used on your own territory, and requires the destruction of a great deal of your forces and territory, so it fails the "indiscriminate" test for weapons of mass destruction.

The question of which sides possess weapons of mass destruction is a bit of a red herring. Any faction that is involved in a war always seeks to arm itself with the most powerful weapons possible. It's only wrong if it's strictly against a weapons limitation treaty that all the other parties are abiding by. To not arm oneself in a total war situation is just a sign of foolish sentimentality (or a sign of good PR).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Furthermore, Lacus and Cagali represented ORB. She did not represent PLANT nor ZAFT. Gladys stated it quite clearly "we don't take orders from Lacus". Her influences with PLANT may be deep rooted, but extremely limited, for the CF could never provide enough logistic and material support for her. The only thing she ever had from ZAFT was an Eternal, the Freedom and Justice in addition to three DOMs, all of which were produced in secret. That makes what? Five MS in total.
I don't agree with this. Lacus only has a peripheral association with Orb: she was never a citizen, nor did she even live in Orb territory for very long. The only time she ever led Orb troops was when they were members of an alliance she commanded. Almost all of her supporters are ZAFT troops and PLANT citizens. At the end of Destiny, Lacus' fleet consisted of Orb vessels, a few OMNI vessels and some ZAFT warships. If Eternal is an accurate representation of those ZAFT vessels, then they are crewed with ZAFT veterans who still wear ZAFT uniforms.

Furthermore, the presence of so many veteran troops loyal to Lacus may well explain why Durandal relied mostly on green troops to protect his most valuable assets: using Minerva, etc. to defend Messiah and REQUIEM.
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Old 2006-08-15, 00:25   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I don't agree with this. Lacus only has a peripheral association with Orb: she was never a citizen, nor did she even live in Orb territory for very long. The only time she ever led Orb troops was when they were members of an alliance she commanded. Almost all of her supporters are ZAFT troops and PLANT citizens. At the end of Destiny, Lacus' fleet consisted of Orb vessels, a few OMNI vessels and some ZAFT warships. If Eternal is an accurate representation of those ZAFT vessels, then they are crewed with ZAFT veterans who still wear ZAFT uniforms.

Furthermore, the presence of so many veteran troops loyal to Lacus may well explain why Durandal relied mostly on green troops to protect his most valuable assets: using Minerva, etc. to defend Messiah and REQUIEM.
I believe I used the word 'represent' in a somewhat misleading manner. You are right, Lacus herself never represented ORB, however, with Cagali's absence from the frontlines, it was Lacus who was entrusted by Cagali to represent ORB. Though I'd assume she was granted with ORB citizenship, since Kira was already an ORB citizen (and if they are living together anyway, well...). Moreover, all the AA crews held alternate identites and worked publically for ORB's Morgenroete corp. It'd cause a political catastrophe if they were discovered to be non-citizens or worse, ex-Fed soldiers.

Now, as far as I can tell from the TV series, Lacus' own material and political support from PLANT are far more limiting than what we thought. First, she had to go through a lot of trouble to get on a space shuttle, when, if her political influence had weight, would have been able to acquire one with relative ease. So far, she was able to acquire from ZAFT the Eternal (but thats been 'hers' since GS), three DOM Mobile Suits (in addition to a descending unit), and possibly half a dozen of ZAFT battleships. Most of her supporters since the launch of AA had been ex-Feddies/Orb nationals or other neutral states. That is especially true after the invasion of ORB. An entire ORB fleet was present during the last battle, while maybe half a dozen ZAFT ships joined Lacus, in addition to Yzak's Joule fleet, which consisted maybe two ships and three named Mobile Suits (Yzak, Dearka, MSV's Shiho), tops.

Lastly, Dully had a lot of reds guarding him as well. When Kira borrowed the S. Rogue to meet the Eternal, he was attacked by none other than a full-red regiment guarding the vicinity.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-15, 00:28   Link #37
tritoch
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Propaganda, backstab, betray, manipulation are not crime. Just like lying is not a crime. Assassination is a crime, but only if you have been found guilty. There had been no evidence (in universe) that allow the court to trace back to Dullidal. In fact, by your same logic, Lacus and co had laid no charge. If she was as innocent as some had suggest shouldn't she have try to resolve this legally as well and called the police instead of running into hidding in a war ship then highjack a ZAFT plane, and then secretly produce WMD to conspire against PLANT's chairman.
If logic permits, you are being assassinated and you react by going to court? Absurd. Especially if you don't know who really did it. Lacus and Co, wasn't sure about Dully for the most part of GSD even when Athrun said that Dully can be trusted. Yes I agree with 4Tran, sole and prime are very different if you think about it.

Quote:
Furthermore, the presence of so many veteran troops loyal to Lacus may well explain why Durandal relied mostly on green troops to protect his most valuable assets: using Minerva, etc. to defend Messiah and REQUIEM.
Reason why Dully had FAITH. He never knew who was working for who.

Quote:
If Eternal is an accurate representation of those ZAFT vessels, then they are crewed with ZAFT veterans who still wear ZAFT uniforms.
and they still do wear those green zaft uniforms.
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Old 2006-08-15, 03:06   Link #38
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Old 2006-08-15, 09:04   Link #39
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
I believe I used the word 'represent' in a somewhat misleading manner. You are right, Lacus herself never represented ORB, however, with Cagali's absence from the frontlines, it was Lacus who was entrusted by Cagali to represent ORB. Though I'd assume she was granted with ORB citizenship, since Kira was already an ORB citizen (and if they are living together anyway, well...). Moreover, all the AA crews held alternate identites and worked publically for ORB's Morgenroete corp. It'd cause a political catastrophe if they were discovered to be non-citizens or worse, ex-Fed soldiers.
After the war, Lacus lived in that house with Malchio, which seems to be outside of Orb territory. There's no real reason for Lacus to get Orb citizenship. The Archangel crew didn't become Orb citizens under their own names, so for legal purposes, they aren't Orb citizens at all. It's not too uncommon for a military to accept foreigners (French Foreign Legion, for example), so there wouldn't be any big fuss over this issue. Prior to the Cosmic Era 73 war, it would have been an insult to the EA, but after it, it's no longer important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
So far, she was able to acquire from ZAFT the Eternal (but thats been 'hers' since GS), three DOM Mobile Suits (in addition to a descending unit), and possibly half a dozen of ZAFT battleships. Most of her supporters since the launch of AA had been ex-Feddies/Orb nationals or other neutral states. That is especially true after the invasion of ORB. An entire ORB fleet was present during the last battle, while maybe half a dozen ZAFT ships joined Lacus, in addition to Yzak's Joule fleet, which consisted maybe two ships and three named Mobile Suits (Yzak, Dearka, MSV's Shiho), tops.
I agree with this to a point. Lacus didn't gather all that many of her own troops for the final battle. However, the non-PLANT units were not actually her supporters, instead, they were her allies. I envision her order of battle as two separate fleets: the Orb and affiliated vessels, and the ZAFT-Terminal vessels. Lacus probably could have gathered more units, but she was short on time, and Durandal was careful enough to assign potentially disloyal units away from the battlefield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Lastly, Dully had a lot of reds guarding him as well. When Kira borrowed the S. Rogue to meet the Eternal, he was attacked by none other than a full-red regiment guarding the vicinity.
True. However, they were also likely to be newly-minted tame reds of the Minerva-variety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
It was really Colonel Mustard with the candlestick in the Ballroom.
Impossible! Pink-chan is a much better suspect than he is.
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Old 2006-08-15, 09:23   Link #40
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
After the war, Lacus lived in that house with Malchio, which seems to be outside of Orb territory. There's no real reason for Lacus to get Orb citizenship. The Archangel crew didn't become Orb citizens under their own names, so for legal purposes, they aren't Orb citizens at all. It's not too uncommon for a military to accept foreigners (French Foreign Legion, for example), so there wouldn't be any big fuss over this issue. Prior to the Cosmic Era 73 war, it would have been an insult to the EA, but after it, it's no longer important.
Again, we don't know that. They were provided political asylum, and had rights that exceeded even certain citizens. I really do imagine it'd make a big fuss if people found out who they really where. So maybe we shouldn't argue if they are or aren't citizens, because clearly, they were more than citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I agree with this to a point. Lacus didn't gather all that many of her own troops for the final battle. However, the non-PLANT units were not actually her supporters, instead, they were her allies. I envision her order of battle as two separate fleets: the Orb and affiliated vessels, and the ZAFT-Terminal vessels. Lacus probably could have gathered more units, but she was short on time, and Durandal was careful enough to assign potentially disloyal units away from the battlefield.
My conclusion came as a result of her troubles acquiring a space shuttle. If Terminal was as powerful as we thought, than there would have been very little problem getting a space shuttle. I was later reminded of some of FATkuda's previous interviews, and came across a particular question:

Q: Where did she get the money & labor to fund her forces, especially S. Freedom and I. Justice?

A: Mostly ORB technical assistance. That and she had a lot of money selling CDs, being an idol and all...

Lastly, I don't think Dully knew who really worked for the Terminal (there just aren't that many), nor did he really fear it (after all, they never tried assassinating him). If according to what you said, he 'assign potentially disloyal units away from the battlefield' then he sure as heck assigned the wrong people. Since he did nothing to Yzak, the forth best pilot of the CE universe, who later joined the Eternal. Yzak would have been the most obvious candidate to be moved around, if Dully was genuinely cautious of the Terminal in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
True. However, they were also likely to be newly-minted tame reds of the Minerva-variety.
Well, we know Reds are nothing more than cannon fodders to named characters The only reds who ever mattered were the Reu team, or those teamed with named Reds . Heck, even the Greenies during the Break of the World incident put up a better fight.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-15 at 09:35.
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