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Old 2006-08-15, 19:13   Link #41
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Again, we don't know that. They were provided political asylum, and had rights that exceeded even certain citizens. I really do imagine it'd make a big fuss if people found out who they really where. So maybe we shouldn't argue if they are or aren't citizens, because clearly, they were more than citizens.
The thing is, citizenship is a legal term. If they were accorded that privilege, then they would be able to use their own names freely. They don’t, so the most reasonable conclusion is that they are residents rather than true citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
My conclusion came as a result of her troubles acquiring a space shuttle. If Terminal was as powerful as we thought, than there would have been very little problem getting a space shuttle. I was later reminded of some of FATkuda's previous interviews, and came across a particular question:

Q: Where did she get the money & labor to fund her forces, especially S. Freedom and I. Justice?

A: Mostly ORB technical assistance. That and she had a lot of money selling CDs, being an idol and all...
I agree that Lacus has little power on Earth. It only makes sense since Terminal’s power base is in PLANT and the nearby environs.

On the other note, I haven’t really paid much attention to Fukuda’s interviews in the past, and I’m not going to do so now. Note that all the uniformed personnel that we see in the Factory are wearing ZAFT colors. Add to this the sheer unlikelihood that Orb personnel would work for Lacus, while Cagalli’s pretty much in the dark as to their activities. It all seems to indicate that Lacus’ supporters are PLANT citizens who are personally loyal to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Lastly, I don't think Dully knew who really worked for the Terminal (there just aren't that many), nor did he really fear it (after all, they never tried assassinating him). If according to what you said, he 'assign potentially disloyal units away from the battlefield' then he sure as heck assigned the wrong people. Since he did nothing to Yzak, the forth best pilot of the CE universe, who later joined the Eternal. Yzak would have been the most obvious candidate to be moved around, if Dully was genuinely cautious of the Terminal in any way.
There’s a couple of ways to explain this: Yzak was one of the heroes who brought down part of REQUIEM to begin with, so it may have not been politically expedient to move him. Alternatively, Durandal may have been watching Yzak carefully all along. This would have told him that Terminal never attempted to contact him at all, making less likely to be a Lacus sympathizer. This would be hardly the first mistake Durandal made during the war.

The reason I speculated that Terminal troops tended to be veteran ZAFT personnel is because that’s what Destiny depicts. Lacus’ forces include Andy, Dacosta, Yzak, Dearka, and the DOM trio. In addition, in “Final Plus”, Mwu even commented to the effect that they were facing mainly inexperienced ZAFT troops.
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Old 2006-08-15, 19:44   Link #42
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
The thing is, citizenship is a legal term. If they were accorded that privilege, then they would be able to use their own names freely. They don’t, so the most reasonable conclusion is that they are residents rather than true citizens.
You and I both know the reason why they can't use their real identity in public. Though at least in their false identities they should be considered as citizens. Or, if we were to reach a compromise, then I'd dub them as "residents with very special priviliges"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
There’s a couple of ways to explain this: Yzak was one of the heroes who brought down part of REQUIEM to begin with, so it may have not been politically expedient to move him. Alternatively, Durandal may have been watching Yzak carefully all along. This would have told him that Terminal never attempted to contact him at all, making less likely to be a Lacus sympathizer. This would be hardly the first mistake Durandal made during the war.

The reason I speculated that Terminal troops tended to be veteran ZAFT personnel is because that’s what Destiny depicts. Lacus’ forces include Andy, Dacosta, Yzak, Dearka, and the DOM trio. In addition, in “Final Plus”, Mwu even commented to the effect that they were facing mainly inexperienced ZAFT troops.
Yes, but the REQUIEM had little to do with Lacus though. Even the Terminal is anti-Feddie to a point (especially when WMDs are involved). Besides, Yzak defected on a whim during the last war , its not like the Terminal actually had to contact him for for that to happen. Yzak is a very unpredictable man, more so than every character in the series .

Yet, the reason why I speculated that Terminal support may be very limited is mainly due to Lacus' own materialistic and logstic support received from the Terminal itself. Sure, the Eternal is staffed by ZAFT personnel, but that is one ship. The S. Freedom, I. Justice, and DOM are powerful mobile suits, but they account for a total of five mobile suits. Beyond that, she had little else (in numbers, at least). Moreover, she even had problems escaping a ZAFT pursuit fleet, which pretty much tells me her influences in PLANT may not be as exaggerated as we previously thought.

Yzak is a wild card. So he can't totally be 'controlled'. Even Dully didn't know what to make of him.

What I do know, is that from Earth to space, the bulk of Lacus' grunt support came from Cagali and ORB. It was ORB that launched the Strike Gundam into space to meet Lacus, and during the final battle, it was an entire ORB fleet and many ORB grunts who provided cover for the Eternal. In fact, I did not see a single ZAFT mobile suit, save for the three DOMs and Yzak's 'rogue' element supporting the Eternal. So, there you have it.

That, and Mwu only said "Well, numbers all you got" but then again, we know Mwu is pretty full of himself

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-16 at 10:49.
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Old 2006-08-15, 19:55   Link #43
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Also note that Yzak was never contacted by Lacus/Terminal. He even said so himself in the final battle. =)
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Old 2006-08-17, 00:30   Link #44
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Tak
Yet, the reason why I speculated that Terminal support may be very limited is mainly due to Lacus' own materialistic and logstic support received from the Terminal itself. Sure, the Eternal is staffed by ZAFT personnel, but that is one ship. The S. Freedom, I. Justice, and DOM are powerful mobile suits, but they account for a total of five mobile suits. Beyond that, she had little else (in numbers, at least). Moreover, she even had problems escaping a ZAFT pursuit fleet, which pretty much tells me her influences in PLANT may not be as exaggerated as we previously thought.
This is quite true, but I doubt that we saw the full extent of Terminal's resources. Yzak is a good example of an asset that they didn't even see fit to mobilize. The way I see it, Lacus' support can be broken down in the following manner:

1. People who either receptive to Lacus' message, or like her singing, or whatever. These people don't know anything about Lacus' political or military activities. This group is either a very large minor minority or even a majority of PLANT's population. This is also the group that Meer was designed to subvert. Arthur and Meer herself are members of this group.

2. People who are on Lacus' side in the civil war, but have not done anything openly. These people know about Lacus' clandestine activities and political influence, but they are not doing anything on her behalf. In a way, this is the group Durandal is the most wary of, simply because he can never be sure who is a member. Yzak and Dearka are members until the very end.

3. People who are working for Terminal, but are not doing so openly. This will include financial and political backers, as well as spies or ZAFT personnel who helped with the "acquisition" of Gaia, etc. These people still have a day job, and their activities risk the chance of discovery and arrest. I can't think of any named characters in Destiny who would fit this role, but if Eileen Canaver was still active, she would almost certainly be a member of this group.

4. Active members of Terminal. Andy, Dacosta, the DOM trio, the personnel running the Factory, etc. This is necessarily the smallest group. In a way, they also generally pose the least amount of threat to Durandal because at least he knows that they are openly against him.

Groups 2,3 and 4 would represent the full extent of Terminal's power, and I think that if they ever got fully mobilized, they would actually represent a large chunk of ZAFT itself. Note that there aren't necessarily any Orb citizens in these groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
What I do know, is that from Earth to space, the bulk of Lacus' grunt support came from Cagali and ORB. It was ORB that launched the Strike Gundam into space to meet Lacus, and during the final battle, it was an entire ORB fleet and many ORB grunts who provided cover for the Eternal. In fact, I did not see a single ZAFT mobile suit, save for the three DOMs and Yzak's 'rogue' element supporting the Eternal. So, there you have it.
Actually, none of these people are really there for Lacus' sake. In all of Archangel's adventures on Earth, all of their actions are on the behalf of Cagalli or Orb. The only exception is Kira, who acted purely on his own initiative. The same thing applies to episode 39, with Strike Rouge.

It's quite natural for Orb vessels to provide cover for Eternal. After all, they are allies, and Lacus was the acting Fleet Admiral. While it's sort of annoying that we didn't see the Nazcas launch any mobile suits, we didn't really see those ships in action very much either. The real life reason the creators didn't show them was so that the audience wouldn't be confused as to who is on who's side. Otherwise, we can simply blame it on poor combat choreography. I find this to be true of Gundam in general – I haven't seen all that many convincing battles from the shows yet.
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Old 2006-08-17, 13:04   Link #45
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^ My primary beef, which I am sure we both noticed, is that it took Lacus an enormous amount of trouble to get anywhere. I'd like to believe her Terminal is as powerful as some believe it to be, but facts really point to the contrary. She has allies, she has support, but they are not as significant.

Remember in GS? She was running around avoiding assassins. If she had 'that' much power (left by her father, of course), she could have given Patrick an open rebellion! The real 'power' of the Terminal was only expressed when the battles were well over (where the council was siezed by the Clyne faction). When Kira & Athrun had taken their turns wasting away entire fleets of ZAFT and Feddie ships.

And as you recall, a majority of the units that accompanied Lacus during the battle of Jachin Due were Orb ships, Orb mobile suits, and Orb grunts.

The same applies to GSD. The Terminal pretty much waited until the last possible moment to display whatever limited powers they had. Not to mention, its intelligence was in shambles, notablly including:

1. The inability to inform Lacus of an assassination attempt
2. The inability to inform Lacus of Meer/Fake Lacus
3. The inability to create save clearance of Lacus and the Eternal

I understand there are many members in the Terminal, but they are more covert in nature, and their numbers may not be as significant as we previously thought. Moreover, their inability to defy Dully openly should be one of the best evidence for this. If Terminal is as strong as we thought, then they sure were pretty inefficient in handling a lot of things.

"Actually, none of these people are really there for Lacus' sake. In all of Archangel's adventures on Earth, all of their actions are on the behalf of Cagalli or Orb."

True, but it was Lacus and Kira who initiated that grand scheme of events and it was pretty much Kira who directed the AA & co. along the way. ORB nationals may rally for her cause, but it was Lacus/Kira/AA that made it possible. Cagali on the other hand, felt like a tagged on (blame FATkuda for that one). The fact is that she did very little in GSD. Getting herself in horrible situations and all.

It would not make sense if ORB units did not support Lacus. Not to mention, she and Kira pretty much saved Cagali's regime! Nonetheless, as I previously mentioned, Cagali had entrusted ORB to Lacus, thus effectively making her commander in chief of the entire ORB fleet (especially during the final battle). If Cagali represented Orb, then Lacus, although not officially, easily represented the military aspect of it. If Lacus failed, Cagali would have failed, as well.

Yzak himself is a totally different story. He is a wild card, not belonging to either Terminal or Dully's ZAFT. He is himself, an individual. I believe his decisions had a profound impact in Lacus' eventual victory (during both wars). Unfortunately, the series failed to explore that aspect more deeply than it should.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-17, 13:12   Link #46
tritoch
 
 
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It would not make sense if ORB units did not support Lacus. Not to mention, she and Kira pretty much saved Cagali's regime! Nonetheless, as I previously mentioned, Cagali had entrusted ORB to Lacus, thus effectively making her commander in chief of the entire ORB fleet (especially during the final battle). If Cagali represented Orb, then Lacus, although not officially, easily represented the military aspect of it. If Lacus failed, Cagali would have failed, as well.
Time to back up on what Tak said. Lacus said so that her ship was nothing more compared to the country of ORB. She'd risk her ship to be shot down and I think that proves that Lacus represented ORB there. =)
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Old 2006-08-17, 16:58   Link #47
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Tak
^ My primary beef, which I am sure we both noticed, is that it took Lacus an enormous amount of trouble to get anywhere. I'd like to believe her Terminal is as powerful as some believe it to be, but facts really point to the contrary. She has allies, she has support, but they are not as significant.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. I don’t think that Terminal’s main strength is military to begin with; it’s mostly a social and political force. Where it is dangerous is that its military assets can come from just about any segment of ZAFT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
1. The inability to inform Lacus of an assassination attempt
2. The inability to inform Lacus of Meer/Fake Lacus
3. The inability to create save clearance of Lacus and the Eternal
I think that the best explanation for this is that Terminal was inactive until the Break the World incident. When Lacus was on that little island with Kira, she should have been effectively incommunicado with the rest of her supporters. Of your points, I don’t think that the first is of much concern since it was obviously a covert operation conducted with the highest possible operation security. The third is also not a big deal, since if Eternal still showed up on a ZAFT registry, it would simply have attracted the attention of Durandal. Only the second is of any real concern, but Durandal was probably secretive about this as well.

Terminal’s greatest intelligence failure was probably the fact that they didn’t know about Messiah and Neo-Genesis. Even this can be partially explained by Durandal’s shroud of secrecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
I understand there are many members in the Terminal, but they are more covert in nature, and their numbers may not be as significant as we previously thought. Moreover, their inability to defy Dully openly should be one of the best evidence for this. If Terminal is as strong as we thought, then they sure were pretty inefficient in handling a lot of things.
It would have been foolish for Terminal agents to reveal themselves while Durandal had control of ZAFT, and still construed as the legitimate ruler of PLANT. They never succeeded in truly challenging his legitimacy, so they didn’t completely mobilize. Besides, they only had the opportunity to participate in one battle. If the civil war had dragged on longer, I think that it’s quite likely for more Terminal units to reveal themselves.

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Originally Posted by Tak
True, but it was Lacus and Kira who initiated that grand scheme of events and it was pretty much Kira who directed the AA & co. along the way. ORB nationals may rally for her cause, but it was Lacus/Kira/AA that made it possible. Cagali on the other hand, felt like a tagged on (blame FATkuda for that one). The fact is that she did very little in GSD. Getting herself in horrible situations and all.

It would not make sense if ORB units did not support Lacus. Not to mention, she and Kira pretty much saved Cagali's regime! Nonetheless, as I previously mentioned, Cagali had entrusted ORB to Lacus, thus effectively making her commander in chief of the entire ORB fleet (especially during the final battle). If Cagali represented Orb, then Lacus, although not officially, easily represented the military aspect of it. If Lacus failed, Cagali would have failed, as well.
Actually, I wouldn’t even count Kira as a member of Terminal. He wore an Orb uniform, worked on behalf of Cagalli’s interests, and wasn’t even privy to Terminal’s activities. Lacus, herself, was the one who did nothing while onboard Archangel. It was only after she left that she began to influence events. I’d also argue that Cagalli tried to do a great deal; whether her attempts were successful is a different story.

While Lacus did act as the Fleet Admiral for the last battle, she did so as the commander of the combined allied fleet, and perhaps only for the purpose of that one engagement. I don’t think that there’s any need to read anything more significant into that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch
Time to back up on what Tak said. Lacus said so that her ship was nothing more compared to the country of ORB. She'd risk her ship to be shot down and I think that proves that Lacus represented ORB there. =)
This is a very good point. As far as Lacus was concerned, she was just the leader of Terminal, and the fight could have gone on even if she died, as long as Orb survived. Normally speaking, this is the exact kind of reasoning that you’d want in a Fleet Admiral, but I don’t think that she’s right in this case. I think that Lacus herself is more important than Orb; that the allies had a better chance of winning in the absence of Orb than in the absence of Lacus. I would say that Lacus’ biggest problem is in not realizing that most of the allies’ chances of winning the war relied on her survival.
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Old 2006-08-17, 17:47   Link #48
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I'm not sure I agree with that. Make Lacus a martyr, and there's a possibility that Terminal will pull off all stoppers. Dullindal will have to deal with countless, unidentified Zaft personel willing to die - not just risk their lives, but actually do the kamikaze thing - to kill him and destroy his plans.

Use Requiem on a populated city and, unless they have a realistic plan to neutralize it, people the world over will fold.
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Old 2006-08-17, 20:38   Link #49
Tak
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^ No kidding. Losing Lacus would mean losing the option to fight a war, permenantly. Not because people suddenly found utopia, rather, we couldn't fight a war because everyone is dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I don’t think that Terminal’s main strength is military to begin with; it’s mostly a social and political force. Where it is dangerous is that its military assets can come from just about any segment of ZAFT.
Thus, because the Terminal's main strength isn't military to begin with, that is one of the reasons why Lacus suffered much logistical problems before, during and after her journey to PLANT. That is one of my arguments I tried to make all along. The Terminal's material support is very limited. Even with them being a social and political force, they were woefully insufficient at that, as well.

You yourself mentioned Terminal agents simply could not defy Dully's legetimacy. Does that mean the Terminal had lost their influence over the council as well? If you noticed, while there were clear differences of opinions in the PLANT council during SEED, there were nearly none for Destiny. The reasons for this might be:

1. Dully successfully manipulated Meer to a point that he also confused/alienated a lot of Terminal members, thus effectively retricting Lacus' original influence. After all, Yzak of all people, was fooled himself. This most outspoken member of ZAFT, a declared closet Lacus fan according to official sources, fooled... Now that would be a problem, wouldn't it?

2. There simply weren't that many Terminal members to begin with.

3. Both

Of course, the lack of intelligence on the Messiah/Neo Genesis may be one of Terminal's biggest faults. Then again, perhaps the Terminal was never granted with sufficient resources and/or manpower in the first place. Despite this, it was Lacus, individually going through a lot of trouble to fulfill her objectives. It was not Terminal. As I said earlier, Terminal offered little help along the way.

I find it difficult to believe that there were other Terminal members than what they had already shown in the series. Surely the Terminal was informed of the Eternal's launch, but either they:

1. Mobilized too slowly, again showing the Terminal's lack of readiness.

or

2. Once again, there weren't many of them in the first place.

or

3. Both

And I tend to think of Lacus and Kira as two halves of a whole. Whatever Kira does, Lacus follows suit and vise versa. Kira does not work for ORB or Terminal. In a sense, Kira IS Terminal just as much as Lacus IS Terminal. That later extended to include ORB as well. Just imagine, if either of them died, there wouldn't be a Terminal, or an ORB for that matter. Losing Kira is akin to Lacus losing all of her limbs, and losing Lacus would have disabled Kira completely, because he will never survive the trauma.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-18, 08:46   Link #50
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
I'm not sure I agree with that. Make Lacus a martyr, and there's a possibility that Terminal will pull off all stoppers. Dullindal will have to deal with countless, unidentified Zaft personel willing to die - not just risk their lives, but actually do the kamikaze thing - to kill him and destroy his plans.
I view this conflict as a PLANT civil war. If Lacus were to die, then it becomes a straight Orb-PLANT war. Orb, by itself, is simply incapable of winning such a war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
You yourself mentioned Terminal agents simply could not defy Dully's legetimacy. Does that mean the Terminal had lost their influence over the council as well? If you noticed, while there were clear differences of opinions in the PLANT council during SEED, there were nearly none for Destiny. The reasons for this might be:
It's not that Terminal members lost their influence on the council. It's that the council itself lost its influence to Durandal. He had become the de facto dictator of PLANT, and any attempt to challenge his legitimacy was tantamount to a declaration of civil war. And there's lots of reasons to avoid doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
I find it difficult to believe that there were other Terminal members than what they had already shown in the series. Surely the Terminal was informed of the Eternal's launch, but either they:
I think that the non-Eternal parts of Terminal decided to mobilize after Lacus decided to public reveal her position. Time is a very important factor here, as there's only about a week between that and the final battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
And I tend to think of Lacus and Kira as two halves of a whole. Whatever Kira does, Lacus follows suit and vise versa. Kira does not work for ORB or Terminal. In a sense, Kira IS Terminal just as much as Lacus IS Terminal. That later extended to include ORB as well. Just imagine, if either of them died, there wouldn't be a Terminal, or an ORB for that matter. Losing Kira is akin to Lacus losing all of her limbs, and losing Lacus would have disabled Kira completely, because he will never survive the trauma.
I think that Lacus and Kira acted pretty much independently for most of Destiny.

If Kira had died, it would have affected the people he knew, but it wouldn't really affect the way Terminal or Orb function. While he may not technically work for Orb, everything he did is to either benefit his country or Cagalli. He also wore an Orb uniform, and was given an official commission in the Orb armed forces.
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Old 2006-08-18, 14:17   Link #51
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
It's not that Terminal members lost their influence on the council. It's that the council itself lost its influence to Durandal. He had become the de facto dictator of PLANT, and any attempt to challenge his legitimacy was tantamount to a declaration of civil war. And there's lots of reasons to avoid doing that.
No no, a civil war would have gone too far. Nonetheless, as you remember in SEED, there were methods to bring a case to the chairman without instigating something as far-fetched as a civil war. In GSD, there were no opposing voice. None, not even in casual discussions. This pretty much tells me Dully had successfully curbed the Terminal either through Meer or by other means. I am willing to bet a lot of Terminal members were fooled and subsequently confused by the appearance of the 'real' Lacus. They either withdrew their support, or remained silent for the duration of the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I think that the non-Eternal parts of Terminal decided to mobilize after Lacus decided to public reveal her position. Time is a very important factor here, as there's only about a week between that and the final battle.
One week to mobilize a fleet is considered a very long time (in fact, too long), even by today's standards. If they weren't ready to support the Eternal on a timely manner, then it tells me that they weren't ready at all. The support from the Terminal were spontaneous and badly coordinated. Even if they have more members than what is already shown to us, their below-average efficiency clearly restrained their efforts. Thus, once again, making the Terminal a very limited opposition to Dully, at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I think that Lacus and Kira acted pretty much independently for most of Destiny.

If Kira had died, it would have affected the people he knew, but it wouldn't really affect the way Terminal or Orb function. While he may not technically work for Orb, everything he did is to either benefit his country or Cagalli. He also wore an Orb uniform, and was given an official commission in the Orb armed forces.
Well, you see them differently, that is ok. I personally don't think Lacus and Kira are dividable. If Kira had died, his death would have started a chain reaction of subsequent catastrophe. The first victim being Lacus, because she could never get over the trauma. His death might not immediately affect the way Terminal or Orb function, but there is no way for the latter two organizations to survive without him. Kira wore a uniform just as Murre wore hers, but they are an independent force, representing ORB but not under the jurisdication the latter's military. I presume he became a commissioned officer only after Yuna was pacified and ORB restored. Despite this, he and Lacus were only able to exercise their executive powers during the final battle.

Moreover, if you had not noticed, with Lacus gone as a result, Kira's abilities went straight to rock bottom (He could not effectively protect the AA, lost to Shinn, in addition to a series of other misfortune )

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-18, 19:33   Link #52
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Tak
No no, a civil war would have gone too far. Nonetheless, as you remember in SEED, there were methods to bring a case to the chairman without instigating something as far-fetched as a civil war. In GSD, there were no opposing voice. None, not even in casual discussions. This pretty much tells me Dully had successfully curbed the Terminal either through Meer or by other means. I am willing to bet a lot of Terminal members were fooled and subsequently confused by the appearance of the 'real' Lacus. They either withdrew their support, or remained silent for the duration of the war.
This just points to the sheer inadequacy of the PLANT council as an effective counter-voice to the Chairman. It probably means that PLANT’s democratic principles are extremely weak; that the population willingly gravitates toward supporting authoritative figures.

There’s often no effective way to remove a dictator short of a civil war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
One week to mobilize a fleet is considered a very long time (in fact, too long), even by today's standards. If they weren't ready to support the Eternal on a timely manner, then it tells me that they weren't ready at all. The support from the Terminal were spontaneous and badly coordinated. Even if they have more members than what is already shown to us, their below-average efficiency clearly restrained their efforts. Thus, once again, making the Terminal a very limited opposition to Dully, at best.
This is only true in a conventional navy. Terminal works in a completely different manner – they basically have to defect from ZAFT units. I think that it’s fairly safe to assume that the Nazcas in the final battle are the few vessels that have an all-Terminal crew, and were assigned to that area of space.
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Old 2006-08-19, 14:11   Link #53
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^ Dully never expressed his fear for the Terminal. He only feared Lacus, and more so Lacus' executioner, namely Kira. Dully was greatly relieved after Kira had been defeated by the Impulse and presumed dead.

The Terminal on the other hand, presented more challenge to Patrick Zala in SEED, not because the PLANT council in SEED wasn't already a dictatorship, but probably because Zala's intentions were so drastic that it was difficult not to oppose him.

Dully on the otherhand, curbed the Terminal by other means. His fear for Lacus' influence first and foremost might have led to the use of Meer. Therefore, I assume he was successful in confusing many Terminal members. After all, he even fooled Yzak. Do you think Yzak would have stayed silent if he knew about Meer beforehand?

Moreover, we have no evidence that PLANT had turned into a complete dictatorship by the early stages of Destiny, since the Clyne faction revised the PLANT Council during the last war. Yet, not once was an opposing voice heard. After the Break of the World Incident, surely somebody in PLANT would have thought to stop Dully before hes gone too far. Then again, he had Meer to support him.

Lacus was never once contacted by Terminal members while she was on Earth. I assume that is why she had to go back to PLANT to salvage the situation. That is why she pleaded with Kira beforehand, because she feared what had become of PLANT and Terminal might not be to her best interests.

I suppose we should all wait for the movie to answer the rest of our questions.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-19, 22:20   Link #54
tritoch
 
 
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Heh, I say this was Dully's fault. If he never attempted the assassination, Lacus and co. would have not have suspected Dully. Dully already had Athrun; All he had to do was use Athrun to convince Lacus and co. that they were on the same page.

Why would that work? Lacus and Co. only suspected Dully after the assassination attempt and if that never happened, they'd be agreeing on to make LOGOS/Djibril the prime perpetrator to the war. Getting Lacus and Co into the fold would have been easy as Dully was infallible with his plans (except for that assassination attempt; and uhh Djibril escaping to space= Luna's fault cause she had bad aim which led to Djibril and Requiem fiasco)

Serves you right Dully for wiping your tracks too early!
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Old 2006-08-20, 01:55   Link #55
Anh_Minh
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Dully wanted Djibril to escape to space. So the Requiem could scare and horrify everyone into joining him and eliminate all his political rivals at the same time.

(Why Djibril's so important to firing Requiem is anyone's guess)
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Old 2006-08-20, 02:31   Link #56
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
(Why Djibril's so important to firing Requiem is anyone's guess)
Because apparently none of the soldiers would dare fire that weapon without an order from the higher ups, and Djibril is the only one willing to give that order.
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Old 2006-08-21, 19:44   Link #57
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
^ Dully never expressed his fear for the Terminal. He only feared Lacus, and more so Lacus' executioner, namely Kira. Dully was greatly relieved after Kira had been defeated by the Impulse and presumed dead.
As far as Durandal was concerned, he probably just thought of Terminal as an extension of Lacus' will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Dully on the otherhand, curbed the Terminal by other means. His fear for Lacus' influence first and foremost might have led to the use of Meer. Therefore, I assume he was successful in confusing many Terminal members. After all, he even fooled Yzak. Do you think Yzak would have stayed silent if he knew about Meer beforehand?
I doubt that Meer managed to deceive any of the actual Terminal personnel. She acted similarly enough to the original to trick people who only knew of Lacus as a pop star, but it not enough to fool those who were better informed. Nor do I think that that was the actual reason; it’s more likely that Durandal needed someone to bolster his own speeches.

I think that Yzak would keep silent without sufficient power to bring down Durandal; I think that he’s grown a lot more mature and restrained in the interim. After all, he strongly disapproved of the Destiny Plan, but he still kept it mostly to himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Moreover, we have no evidence that PLANT had turned into a complete dictatorship by the early stages of Destiny, since the Clyne faction revised the PLANT Council during the last war. Yet, not once was an opposing voice heard. After the Break of the World Incident, surely somebody in PLANT would have thought to stop Dully before hes gone too far. Then again, he had Meer to support him.
He announced the Destiny Plan without consulting the PLANT council. It’s highly unlikely that the Chairman is accorded this much unilateral authority, but there was nary a peep of protest from the other PLANT leaders. This is a de facto case of dictatorship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Lacus was never once contacted by Terminal members while she was on Earth. I assume that is why she had to go back to PLANT to salvage the situation. That is why she pleaded with Kira beforehand, because she feared what had become of PLANT and Terminal might not be to her best interests.
We never really saw what she was up to on board Archangel, so there’s no way to tell what information she actually received. Actually, I think that Lacus outright deceived the Archangel crew about what she was planning. If anything, I think that she had Durandal pegged as her enemy pretty much from the outset, and she went to space with marshal her forces in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritoch
Serves you right Dully for wiping your tracks too early!
This was a horrible mistake on Durandal’s part, and I think that it makes the most sense if we view it as him trying to seize an opportunity that presented itself. It also leads me to believe that Durandal didn’t feel that he was charismatic enough to sell the Destiny plan, so he needed someone like Lacus to be his spokesman. At the same time, he was certain that she would never actually support his plans…
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Old 2006-08-21, 19:53   Link #58
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that Yzak would keep silent without sufficient power to bring down Durandal; I think that he’s grown a lot more mature and restrained in the interim. After all, he strongly disapproved of the Destiny Plan, but he still kept it mostly to himself.
If you recall, Yzak expressed his surprise when he saw two Lacus(es) on TV. If he had known earlier, surely he would have talked to Athrun about it, or Dearka, or Shiho. Questioning the chairman didn't mean an instant death sentence, but he didn't do that either. Instead, he expressed surprise, adding "I don't know what the hell is going on!". This pretty much tells me that even he was fooled, which is a very unlikely case. Therefore, from that evidence, I draw the conclusion that most (if not all) Terminal members were also manipulated by Meer as a result. No wonder Lacus went to space in an attempt to salvage the situation.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-21, 20:08   Link #59
4Tran
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Perhaps he simply thought that Meer was part of a greater scheme that Lacus simply didn’t see fit to inform him about. It’s also possible that Yzak simply expressed surprise at the way Lacus decided to declare her opposition to Durandal. I don’t think that any Terminal personnel would think that Lacus would actually support Durandal. Again, the way Meer acted was only consistent with Lacus’ non-political façade. Terminal members should really know better.

Questioning the Chairman is basically asking him, “Are you breaking the law?” If he really were, then Yzak would be in a lot of trouble. It’s an extremely foolish question to ask of someone in power.
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Old 2006-08-21, 20:37   Link #60
Tak
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Personally, I don't think we should give the characters that much credit Yzak is not a very sophisticated man (but he is unpredictable). He'd scream at anyone whenever his personal space/power/ideal/truth is threatened by the slightest hint (ie. beginning episodes of GSD).

Speaking of Meer supporting Durandal, unlike Lacus, Meer made several speeches supporting Dully in several episodes of GSD. Once again, no response from Terminal to Lacus. Hell, Lacus didn't even know Meer existed until she was in the Archangel.

Of course even with Yzak's limited 'planning techniques', he wouldn't question Dully in such a straightforward manner. Nonetheless, the fact that he made no reaction to the matter is enough of a proof for me that he didn't know anything.

- Tak (Once again, this is just my opinion)
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