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Old 2006-08-22, 00:12   Link #61
4Tran
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I'm a little more willing to give Yzak a little more credit. While he's got a fiery personality, he's hardly stupid. He's definitely not foolish enough to do things that would get himself in trouble without actually accomplishing anything – he's got the example of his mother to go by. Besides, Yzak more or less reacted to Athrun's presence: he was rather more composed meeting up later on.

Still, the audience is simply not privy to the communication between Terminal and Archangel. We do know that there is some, but there's no indication of how much there was, or what it pertained to. At the very least, Terminal passed on Athrun's message, intercepted Meer's shuttle schedule, arranged a space rendezvous with Lacus, and possibly provided them with information about Minerva and Takemi Ikazuchi's movements. We didn't see any of that spelled out either, but it had to have occurred. Likewise, we never really saw what Lacus was up to, but it was rather obvious that she was up to something. Ditto for Durandal's plans.
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Old 2006-09-06, 08:27   Link #62
zgmf-x19a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
cloudedge, please calm down.

The core plot to every Gundam franchise is political struggle. There are no absolute good factions just as there are a lack of completely evil ones. Dully and Lacus entered a political struggle that simply ended with Lacus on top. So? Does that mean either of them are inheritly better than the other? No. The producers of GSD had to make Dully into a antagonist figure, simple as that.

Even Lacus and Kira both admitted that they were no longer innoncent. They can't be.

Lacus had every right to suspect PLANT and Dully. She did just that. But she also said "I cannot trust this chairman, though we must wait for things to unfold", meaning she never did hold Dully prime suspect until later when, well, things unfolded.

What people seem to forget, is that ORB represented a fictional Japan. It is an archipelago, has one of the world's most advanced navies but not enough manpower to support it, and has this thing with self-determination. Therefore, Japan has to win. Period.

Next, Gundams are not WMDs. Nukes are WMDs, the Genesis is a WMD, the Cyclopes is a WMD, Freedom/Justice/Destiny are NOT WMDs no matter how powerful they are.

Furthermore, Lacus and Cagali represented ORB. She did not represent PLANT nor ZAFT. Gladys stated it quite clearly "we don't take orders from Lacus". Her influences with PLANT may be deep rooted, but extremely limited, for the CF could never provide enough logistic and material support for her. The only thing she ever had from ZAFT was an Eternal, the Freedom and Justice in addition to three DOMs, all of which were produced in secret. That makes what? Five MS in total.

Most of the grunts and ships that fought alongsidet Lacus and co. during the last war were ORB nationals. How is it so difficult to see this? It was the Murasame production types and ORB fleet ships who faced the brunt of the attacks. Sure, the Joule Fleet eventually joined Lacus (thank Goddess they did), but Yzak was a closet Lacus fan so that was expected of him. Regardless, that was but a fraction of the entire ZAFT fleet. If Lacus had as much as influence you thought she did, there wouldn't even BE a war, and Dully would have faced the firing squad around episode 20, just because Lacus demands it. That didn't happen. Fact is, Lacus' safety while infiltrating PLANT was pretty much guaranteed by her ability to pretend being 'herself'. I'd find that to be somewhat painful, to even have to 'pretend' being yourself. If Lacus had that much influence, she would have just ask her buddies to get her any shuttle and took off.

And how can Lacus pursue a case against Dully legally? Not only is it impossible at that point, but you don't negotiate with talks in a Gundam franchise, not until you have expired all of your war making options. Not to mention she didn't want to be superman or batman, Dully was just dumb enough to make her one. Oops?

Lastly, war is not legal. Its never been legal nor is it fair. You just had to win, and once you do, you make a point.

BUT, if you seek evidence to why Dully is prime suspect and villian of GSD, I really do suggest reading Destiny Astray stuff, they are as official as they can get. The whole point to leaving plot holes like that on the TV series is so that they can sell their mangas. Marketing strategy my friend, marketing strategy.

- Tak

a few questions if you don't mind Tak
What does CF stand for?
Yzak being a Lacus fan? I didn't know that. Could you be more precised please?
I don't remember
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Old 2006-09-06, 08:31   Link #63
Renegade334
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CF = Clyne Faction, Siegel's moderate organization that Lacus took over after her father died and used to form one third of the TSA (three ship alliance, if you want to know). I guess it 'officially' became part of Terminal afterwards.

I think it was stated in a trivia book, magazine or CD drama that Yzak was a fan of Lacus and her music, hence why he hesitated fighting her.
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Old 2006-09-06, 09:12   Link #64
zgmf-x19a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334
CF = Clyne Faction, Siegel's moderate organization that Lacus took over after her father died and used to form one third of the TSA (three ship alliance, if you want to know). I guess it 'officially' became part of Terminal afterwards.

I think it was stated in a trivia book, magazine or CD drama that Yzak was a fan of Lacus and her music, hence why he hesitated fighting her.
thanks for the info
Regarding Yzak being a Lacus fan ? Is it in an audio drama ? Like the GS mobile suit CD? If yes which one ?
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Old 2006-09-06, 09:33   Link #65
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
thanks for the info
Regarding Yzak being a Lacus fan ? Is it in an audio drama ? Like the GS mobile suit CD? If yes which one ?
Mostly trivia book, and of course... SEED CLUB. He is a closet Lacus fan, and wouldn't openly state his 'love' for the pop-idol for obvious reasons, considering him being who he is...

- Tak
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Old 2006-09-06, 09:47   Link #66
anselfir
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Seed Club is awesome, too bad I can't read it. T_T

It would be interesting to see some interaction between Yzak and Kira/Lacus though.
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Old 2006-09-06, 09:55   Link #67
grandmaster192
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What is Seed Club?
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Old 2006-09-06, 09:58   Link #68
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anselfir
Seed Club is awesome, too bad I can't read it. T_T

It would be interesting to see some interaction between Yzak and Kira/Lacus though.
I am sure you will see some of that in Special Edition 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
What is Seed Club?
Its an online club for SEED fans in Japan. Its an official 'club' initiated by the nice folks at... Bandai

A great place for artworks, video and voice clips

http://www.gundam-seed.net/seed_club/top.html

- Tak
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Old 2006-09-06, 10:04   Link #69
grandmaster192
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You speak Japanese Tak? And is there no american page?
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Old 2006-09-06, 10:05   Link #70
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
You speak Japanese Tak? And is there no american page?
Yes and No.

- Tak
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Old 2006-09-06, 10:44   Link #71
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Talking about Yzak/Lacus/Kira interaction, I just had the weirdest dream ever where Kira, Yzak and Lacus relive the 1st and 2nd volume of Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star with Kira = Kenshiro, Shin = Yzak, and Yulia = Lacus.

Yzak : All these wealth, power, women...It's all meaningless. I only wanted one thing, only LACUUSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

*Yzak spews blood and his MS going to blow up*

Yzak : Looks like this is the end of me...But I'm not going to be your banana for the umpthened time, Kira...

Yzak : So....Farewell!!! Kira!!!!

It went on with Ray as Shinn, but that's off-topic.
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Old 2006-09-06, 10:52   Link #72
zgmf-x19a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Mostly trivia book, and of course... SEED CLUB. He is a closet Lacus fan, and wouldn't openly state his 'love' for the pop-idol for obvious reasons, considering him being who he is...

- Tak

ok thanks besides if he does tell his admiration I bet Shiho would be pissed off lol
Shino : Captain Jule you like Lacus?!
Yzak : *blushing* Yes I do *red with anger* got a problem with that?
Shino : *death glare* I do
Gunshots
Tomorrow morning Dearka found the body of Yzak with Moe Lacus written next to it
Dearka : Women can't live with and can't live without lol
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Old 2006-09-06, 11:24   Link #73
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
ok thanks besides if he does tell his admiration I bet Shiho would be pissed off lol
Shino : Captain Jule you like Lacus?!
Yzak : *blushing* Yes I do *red with anger* got a problem with that?
Shino : *death glare* I do
Gunshots
Tomorrow morning Dearka found the body of Yzak with Moe Lacus written next to it
Dearka : Women can't live with and can't live without lol
Thats urm... Shiho Hahnenfuss there Not Shino. Ah, and she was so great in Generation of C.E.

And Nightengale, thats a scary dream. Never repeat it in front of me again.

- Tak
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Old 2006-09-06, 11:37   Link #74
zgmf-x19a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Thats urm... Shiho Hahnenfuss there Not Shino. Ah, and she was so great in Generation of C.E.

And Nightengale, thats a scary dream. Never repeat it in front of me again.

- Tak

sorry about the mixed up name lol
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Old 2006-09-06, 11:40   Link #75
anselfir
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roflmao. I'll enslave some friends to translate for me.
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Old 2008-01-16, 15:36   Link #76
4Tran
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Bring out your dead!

From the Seed Destiny thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Alright 4Tran i might want to bring the importance of making sure you have facts before you start accusing. Lets just say it wasnt Dully that sent the assasination team, and the whole scenario is fabricated to indicate it is Dully.
No, let's not. From the dialogue, we know that the assassin's primary objectives are:
1. Kill Lacus.
2. Hide the fact that she's dead.

You can't frame anyone by stealthily performing an assassination and hiding the fact, so we can safely put the possibility of that hypothesis to rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
But kira and lacus decided it was him who did it... now alot of people just died coz of poor intel and lack of proof, and evidence. Coz they went under of the assumption it was Dully with lack to none information. Given the severity you so want to make sure you dont F**KUP with your sources of information.
What severity? You have to look at it from the perspective of risk management - what do they lose by assuming that he did it, and going into hiding. And how should they act differently if they assumed that he didn't do it. You should also separate Lacus from the rest of the Archangel crew for this as well. While I think that she was certain that Durandal was the culprit, Kira told Athrun that although they suspected him, they weren't sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
I hope this gives you an insight the importance of ascertaining information before you start to accuse and later use deadly force. You wanna make sure its the right guy before people start getting hurt.
Archangel didn't use deadly force (or any other sort of force) on ZAFT forces because they thought Durandal was the assassination mastermind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Now that you have read above, you should now know im not refering to court of law but the potential outcome of violence due to lack of accurate informaton. With my example above im sure that 100% proof would of saved lives as well reduced injuries.
100% proof is strictly the realm of philosophers; nobody practical would bother with it. Even in courts of law (going by American law), the standard of proof for civil cases is "clear and convincing evidence", and for criminal cases, it's "beyond reasonable doubt". None of this "100% proof" nonsense to be found.

Furthermore, in times of war, time is not a luxury that combatants can afford. It's necessary to act based on whatever information is available - which is precisely why good intelligence is so valuable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
But either way i still wouldnt been convinced if kira told me by word of mouth that Dully is behind the assasination with some form of evidence. Talk is cheap
That's why they never went public with the assassination story. They only told Athrun to plant some seeds of doubt.
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Old 2008-01-16, 20:50   Link #77
winter45
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Alright 4Tran i came in to share the *gray factor* and earn some reps. I fullfilled my objective and now my mission is complete.

It is going to obvious that i wont convince you from the start, but that is to be expected but i gave reason y my points are valid and some people agree with me. So now i will stop this argument, its not going to get us anywhere and honestly i dont want to play text ping pong all day long. WE are not going to convince each other and im going to put a stop to this.

Ive done what i want and now im moving on. Convincing you is not part of my priority.

Last edited by winter45; 2008-01-16 at 22:50.
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Old 2008-01-16, 21:53   Link #78
Eidolon Sniper
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Why are CE threads getting reborn again all of a sudden?

@ 4Tran

Hmm, anybody could kill someone then make it look like somebody else did it. Besides, there is little evidence to prove that Dully could be behind the assassination attempt. He was concentrating on "manipulating" Shinn, since he can't get Kira, and was also concentrating on getting Athrun as well. Also, he was too busy planning luring Cagalli into a trap. seriously though, Dullindal as the mastermind was also already disproved by the manga, it was not made clear if he was behind the attack at all, Deacon Blues already posted that 2 years ago... >.<;;

Um, Kira and Lacus were already sure that Dully was the mastermind...>.<;; all Andrew Waltfeld had to do was that saying the assassins used high tech MS, Murrue Ramius saying that they were Coordinators based on how they attacked. They still had doubts, but still "decided" to "trust" Dully, but when they saw Meer on screen, they decided that he was evil, after all. This was just further "cemented" when Lacus found out about the Destiny Plan notebook. Also, separating Lacus from the Archangel... so you're saying that Archangel goals are not the same as Lacus' goals? The fact that they didn't use force (but used Freedom instead ) on ZAFT meant that they respected Lacus' wishes to put Dully into standby mode and wait if he does anything evil on the side.

Recall that the only "real piece of evidence" Kira and company had was Andrew Waltfeld and Murrue Ramius' statements and the little notebook on the Destiny Plan. Meer could be called as a piece of evidence, but "Lacus" in that sense wasn't even doing anything evil at that point - she was just making sure ZAFT soldiers would still have the morale after everything bad that has happened - the Break the World incident, the incident at Armory One. It's not as if she's cheering them on for a good war, it's just that Meer was just there to cheer everybody up because the war is inevitable, and of course everyone is not exactly thrilled about the war... When "Lacus" spoke up for Dullindal, it was pretty legit. It would be very different if Dullindal suddenly called for a war without any real good reason. Lacus also did the same thing back in SEED, but in reverse. She was asking people to stop from fighting, to go against Patrick Zala's wishes of all out war, and then leads a war herself against Zala. "Lacus" was also calling for a war, against people who were the masterminds behind the Destroy incident, and I think LOGOS (correct me iif I'm wrong, it's been 2 years since I last watched Destiny). The episodes 35 up to the last episode were pretty much hurried, and Dullindal was only seen as evil in those episodes (REAL evil). So there's not much evidence to back up that claim, the evidence would still lose pretty badly if this was settled in court, unless of course CF also paid people to fabricate enough evidence... I am not going to go through with Lacus' plans of creating an army for herself and still call that as legit, against Dully's "war mongering"...

Um, Kira implied Dully was behind Lacus' assassination attempt...remember, he was and didn't like to believe what Kira was saying...
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Old 2008-01-17, 00:58   Link #79
Anh_Minh
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Identity theft is never legit, especially when using that stolen identity to push such a big agenda as Meer was doing.

Besides, that, right there, provides motive for the assassination.
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Old 2008-01-17, 01:05   Link #80
Neku
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It's all just a puzzle you see. It's whether you can put it together and believe it or not.
..and I believe that it's Durandal.
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