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Old 2008-01-17, 04:00   Link #81
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdirt View Post
It's all just a puzzle you see. It's whether you can put it together and believe it or not.
..and I believe that it's Durandal.
Yep. And here's another piece of evidence; should there be another person who wanted Lacus dead who isn't Durandal, that person would have targeted Meer by mistake.

Further, the assassins stated they were ordered to Lacus killed secretly, thus implying that the person who sent them wanted Meer to stay as the "true Lacus". Hence all enemies of PLANT are ruled out. If an anti-Coordinator group like Blue Cosmos knew about the fake Lacus, it would be to their benefit in harming Durandal's powerbase by exposing his lies to the public.
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Old 2008-01-17, 10:28   Link #82
Eidolon Sniper
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Um, when I said "Lacus" was legit - I was pertaining to her actions...actions which were a curious mirror to what Lacus did in SEED.

There could still be other groups who would wish to kill Lacus. Recall that Yuna KNEW about Kira, which was supposed to be top secret. If that hasn't slipped, I will probably "believe" that Dully is the "mastermind" behind it all. It does not mean that since the person who ordered the assassins to kill Lacus secretly = Dullindal already no doubt about that period. I mean, Yuna could've probably had Lacus killed and frames Cagalli for it, anyone can do that. But this is the CE remember, anything can happen... we must not also rule out that it could also happen that way, as we are all going on assumptions on this part. Saying that there are no other PLANT enemies than Dully who could've done it - it's now becoming more of the case of "stereotyping" again, just because Dully was shown to have "shady" actions throughout the entire series...it could be plotted by Malchio for all we care, maybe rabid Zala supporters who could know that Lacus secretly hides in the orphanage, or some other faction, but still Dully gets the blame.

Also, he can't kill Lacus. He could've probably used Meer as a bait to lure Lacus out of hiding, and maybe they could've worked something out in the end. He stated that he needs Lacus, so probably doing anything to Lacus could mean that his "entire plan" would not work according to plan. Killing Lacus secretly when in truth she has Terminal in the PLANTs... that would mean that Terminal would move, and probably do everything in their power to snuff Dully's power and maybe send him to a nondescript island somewhere, and all his little plans would not have borne fruit. If Dully was adamant in putting Meer as the REAL Lacus, he could've already done something within the 2 years that have passed, because Lacus would be the real obstruction to his power, doing anything right now would threaten his power very much, as he now fully knows that Lacus has indeed set up a watchdog on PLANT.
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Old 2008-01-17, 10:36   Link #83
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I mean, Yuna could've probably had Lacus killed and frames Cagalli for it, anyone can do that.
Exactly why would he do that?

Throwing random theories out there doesn't do your argument any good if you don't have motive. And Gilbert was the only one who know that Meer isn't Lacus and could benefit from her death.

You can't frame someone for murdering Lacus if "Lacus" is still alive in Plant and sing songs by Gilbert's side. And you ESPECIALLY can't frame someone for killing Lacus if you are going to hide the fact that she was ever killed.

I repeat: It is a fact that the Assassins were ordered to kill Lacus secretly, this contradicts any plans to frame anyone. If you want to frame someone, you want a Media Circus to blow it out of proportion.

Gilbert wasn't being framed, Cagalli wasn't being framed, no one could be framed. The assassins had only one goal; for there to be only one, Gilbert-controlled Lacus remain in this world.

Quote:
If Dully was adamant in putting Meer as the REAL Lacus, he could've already done something within the 2 years that have passed, because Lacus would be the real obstruction to his power, doing anything right now would threaten his power very much, as he now fully knows that Lacus has indeed set up a watchdog on PLANT.
You said it yourself; Lacus is his only obstruction. What do people do to obstructions?
And he obviously DID plan something; he planned how he was going to kill her. What, you think assassinations of VIPs can be planned in weeks?
I am sure he would have done this sooner, had he not being busy ordering the construction of that mini Deathstar...

EDIT: Oh, and of course, in order for his plans to work, Gilbert needed to GET a fake Lacus first. That couldn't have been easy, finding Meer and getting all that surgery done...
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Old 2008-01-17, 11:17   Link #84
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  • That was meant to be an example. I mean, people could possibly get away with murder and frame an innocent person for killing the victim, right? They have their own motives in doing them. Yuna could have motives: he may be pissed that Cagalli decided to marry Athrun, he wants to make Cagalli suffer a huge publicity backlash in public outroar at her supposed "command" of killing Lacus and publicly humiliate her in the process...the list could go on and on. Yuna knows about Kira, it would only be a short time that he could probably know about Lacus, the same way he knew about Kira, or maybe Cagalli could've slipped and told him about Lacus...anything could possibly happen. He could've killed Lacus to show that he supports the EA wholeheartedly, and Orb would greatly benefit from that as Yuna killed an important person who could block their every moment with just a single command. EA could've probably lorded over the Earth sphere, if Lacus was killed. Also, if Dully finds out that Lacus got killed, would he still go on with his Meer impersonation? He said that he needs Lacus, he may be very charming as the PLANT chairman but his personality and status isn't as fine as Lacus' as people really listen to everything that she says. As the Lacus death would only impede his ambitions to use Lacus' power to charm the world to his side, he would then have to do with trying to do things done his way as much as he could, and have a real war on his hands. Trying to revive Lacus would make other people question his motives more, but he knows that Lacus is very "powerful" enough to give him the authority to be the PLANT chairman people respect him to be. He could either use her death as that refining force to "cleanse" all his other actions or use it as a way of saying that Naturals are evil after all, but we all know that Dully would rather use his own methods to do that - the Destiny Plan. This is to say that this could happen when Dully has his entire "plan" worked out and had to suffer a little snag; the events during Destiny.
  • I also didn't say that a plan like that could be easily set up for weeks, anything could've happened in those 2 years. If he had enough preparation to do that, he could go kill Lacus when the time was right, and so saved himself from trying to put up a show that "Lacus" supports him...he could now probably do EVERYTHING himself with no Lacus to hinder him. If he played his cards right, he could've done something that would make him the "next Lacus" and so probably immortalize himself in a way that fans would also see that everything he does is also as good as what Lacus could've done, or something to that effect, or could've failed terribly and used Messiah so that he could destroy the madmen behind Blue Cosmos and LOGOS and end up being a very good character in spite of his shady beginnings as a "Lacus replacement". This would probably be true if Lacus was in any way killed before the events in Destiny.

Why did Dully wait for Destiny to happen before making his move? He probably had his own connections back then, he could've probably known that Lacus was hiding - why didn't he use that time given to him to kill Lacus, if he was solely bent on taking the power himself even before Destiny? Also, the given time frame in Destiny is too short - the Lacus assassination happens just around 5 episodes or something before Meer was introduced to the Archangel. Knowing how Dully "worked" to make everything go as planned - from manipulating Shinn, Athrun to an extent - his shoddy treatment of the Lacus assassination plot is very mediocre at best. If he didn't know about Kira, why would he mumble something about the chess pieces - knowing full well that when they are together, they're a "power" feared by everyone else in the CE timeline? Dully must've known of what Kira could do, since he "knows" Lacus very well enough to "assassinate" her, and should've known better than deploying "Coordinators" and top level ZAFT MS to kill Lacus. He doesn't seem surprised at all that Freedom was there, so he knows what Kira can do in that suit. Or maybe he was. In any case, as we all know what Dully can do, the Lacus assassination plot doesn't look like Dully made to me - in the sense that it was all thought out, and should've happened a long time before Meer was introduced to the Archangel, given his plans are very well-polished.
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Old 2008-01-17, 11:55   Link #85
lordgemini
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Hi everyone, first of all, this is not a flame, is a crazy idea about who plan the killing attempt.

I think it was the only person who benefit for the war at the end, and with the power and the intelligence to plan it. Lacus Clyne



No, I am not joking, think about it, she has the infrastructure and the contacts to send professionals coordinators and give them modern mobile suites.

Now you will ask "why?" well, let's see:

1) just after the end of the war, she couldn't return to the PLANTs because she was the leader of a terrorist faction, even if she return, she will not have any political power, because all the PLANTs where a mess.

2) In the earth she could wait, after all she was an heroine, sooner or later she would be exonerated, now she only need to wait for the chance to be the heroine once again.

3) With the fall of junius-7 and the new war between the federation and the PLANTs she have the chance, but Kira lost the courage to fight.

4)With the assasination attempt, Kira choose to pilot once again, and not only that, she could use the attempt to frame Durandal, to strenght the decision of his followers (remember, in the discussion betweeb Azthuran and Kira the only "but" was THE assasination attempt).

5) She went to space, there she build the stronger Mobile suites, and send DaCosta to look in the laboratory for "something" that will reveal the "true nature" of Durandal (she doesn't know about the Destiny plan or the diary, soo she send DaCosta to found Anything that she could use to justify her next step)

6)Now she just need to wait until one side where finished, in she would not enter a three side war, she con focus in the winner, and she do it, when she returns to earth is when Logos is almost complete defeated.

7) Now, she appear on tv and expose the false lacus plot, with this simple gesture she make a glorious return to the mind of ALL the people, also and more important she give the first blow in the image of Durandal, who was using a Double of Lacus.

8)Now, with a nervous Durandal and the diary, she only need to wait until he implement the Destiny plan, then she would proclaim that the plan against the freedom of the humanity and would make her move against him

9) After the Dedeat of Durandal, she make her triumphant return to the PLANTS as the chairwoman, now she was the true heroine, who save everyone and withous opposition. Long live the Queen.

Of course I am not saying that Durandal was a good guy, he was evil and all, but he was not stupid, the assassionation attempt was a bad idea, it was telling them "look, Durandal Do it", and he was not the type to make such mistake. Why send a commando of obvious coordinator soldiers in military equip if you can kill her in others ways, that will not make you the obvious suspect

Well thanks for reading
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Old 2008-01-17, 11:56   Link #86
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
[Dully must've known of what Kira could do, since he "knows" Lacus very well enough to "assassinate" her, and should've known better than deploying "Coordinators" and top level ZAFT MS to kill Lacus.
Hold on... If you don't send Coordinators and top level ZAFT MS to kill Lacus, what CAN you send?

Weak Naturals and cheap mass-produced MS?

You said it yourself, the best of the best was sent to kill Lacus. You said Gilbert should have known better... What was he suppose to have known better? If you want someone dead, you send in your best troops.

Quote:
1) just after the end of the war, she couldn't return to the PLANTs because she was the leader of a terrorist faction, even if she return, she will not have any political power, because all the PLANTs where a mess.
That's completely and utterly false. Because Gilbert's entire powerbase is built upon Meer's political support. If Lacus was in as much mess as you claimed, what Gilbert did would be the equivalent of G W Bush hiring a Saddam Hussein impersonator to do his speeches during the previous presidential election.
Lacus could have assumed control of PLANT immediately after the last war. She just wasn't interested.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:35   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Why did Dully wait for Destiny to happen before making his move?
Why do you think Durandal even knew where Lacus was until she showed up on Onogoro? After all, she was living on a remote island where the sole outside contact consisted of Athrun and Cagalli.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordgemini
1) just after the end of the war, she couldn't return to the PLANTs because she was the leader of a terrorist faction, even if she return, she will not have any political power, because all the PLANTs where a mess.
That hypothesis doesn't work. At the end of the Cosmic Era 71 war, that "terrorist faction" took over the PLANT governing council, arrested their enemies, pardoned their followers, and even occupied the Chairman's office. In effect, they possessed all of the political power, and the only other major movement, the Zala followers, were discredited. If we look to Destiny, it's obvious that no one in PLANT thought of Meer as a terrorist, and Durandal himself said that Lacus was the most popular figure among Coordinators.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:55   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Um, when I said "Lacus" was legit - I was pertaining to her actions...actions which were a curious mirror to what Lacus did in SEED.
That doesn't make it right, or non-suspicious.



Quote:
Also, he can't kill Lacus. He could've probably used Meer as a bait to lure Lacus out of hiding, and maybe they could've worked something out in the end.
That's stupid. If all he wanted was to talk, he could have gone through channels. Stealing her identity is not a good way to start a positive relationship.

Quote:
He stated that he needs Lacus, so probably doing anything to Lacus could mean that his "entire plan" would not work according to plan.
He lied. It's what politicians do.

And there, his reasons for lying were obvious. He wanted an excuse for making a fake, so Athrun wouldn't turn against him.

What he really needed was a Lacus-shaped mouthpiece to do his bidding. Not the real, actual Lacus with a mind of her own. In fact, he needed that real Lacus to die to insure the perennity of his own Lacus.

Quote:
Killing Lacus secretly when in truth she has Terminal in the PLANTs... that would mean that Terminal would move, and probably do everything in their power to snuff Dully's power and maybe send him to a nondescript island somewhere, and all his little plans would not have borne fruit.
That's why it was important to keep her death a secret. It also makes him, as has been pointed out, the only one to have a stake in staging Lacus' secret death. Her public and messy death? Plenty of people could have wanted that. A secret death? The suspect list just got a lot shorter.

Quote:
If Dully was adamant in putting Meer as the REAL Lacus, he could've already done something within the 2 years that have passed, because Lacus would be the real obstruction to his power, doing anything right now would threaten his power very much, as he now fully knows that Lacus has indeed set up a watchdog on PLANT.
He probably did, and was unable to find her. Also, remember it's been a busy two years for him, what with rising to power and putting all his secret plans in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
I also didn't say that a plan like that could be easily set up for weeks, anything could've happened in those 2 years. If he had enough preparation to do that, he could go kill Lacus when the time was right, and so saved himself from trying to put up a show that "Lacus" supports him...he could now probably do EVERYTHING himself with no Lacus to hinder him.
By the time he found Lacus at last, events were moving too fast. That was his first, and last opportunity to assassinate her quietly. It just didn't work out. It happens.

Quote:
If he played his cards right, he could've done something that would make him the "next Lacus" and so probably immortalize himself in a way that fans would also see that everything he does is also as good as what Lacus could've done, or something to that effect, or could've failed terribly and used Messiah so that he could destroy the madmen behind Blue Cosmos and LOGOS and end up being a very good character in spite of his shady beginnings as a "Lacus replacement". This would probably be true if Lacus was in any way killed before the events in Destiny.
You don't make a Lacus that easily. He lacked the angelic face, for starters. He also lacked the saving people from a genocidal war. By the time he did that, a Lacus would be of no use to him. He wanted one so people would follow him into the war, not out of it.

He was charismatic enough, in his way. But his charisma was that of a mature man, not of quasi-religious icon of purity and good will like Lacus.


Quote:
Why did Dully wait for Destiny to happen before making his move? He probably had his own connections back then, he could've probably known that Lacus was hiding - why didn't he use that time given to him to kill Lacus, if he was solely bent on taking the power himself even before Destiny?
What makes you think he didn't? His "connections" failed him, that's all. He wasn't able able to penetrate Lacus' organisation, and he wasn't able to locate her, in part because she wasn't doing anything to be noticed herself.

Quote:
Also, the given time frame in Destiny is too short - the Lacus assassination happens just around 5 episodes or something before Meer was introduced to the Archangel. Knowing how Dully "worked" to make everything go as planned - from manipulating Shinn, Athrun to an extent - his shoddy treatment of the Lacus assassination plot is very mediocre at best. If he didn't know about Kira, why would he mumble something about the chess pieces - knowing full well that when they are together, they're a "power" feared by everyone else in the CE timeline? Dully must've known of what Kira could do, since he "knows" Lacus very well enough to "assassinate" her, and should've known better than deploying "Coordinators" and top level ZAFT MS to kill Lacus. He doesn't seem surprised at all that Freedom was there, so he knows what Kira can do in that suit. Or maybe he was. In any case, as we all know what Dully can do, the Lacus assassination plot doesn't look like Dully made to me - in the sense that it was all thought out, and should've happened a long time before Meer was introduced to the Archangel, given his plans are very well-polished.
He did the best he could in the short time he gave himself. (And he gave himself only a short time in which to work because, as I said, events were moving fast.) He sent trained commandos and top of the line equipment. They went in with a ground assault first, where, I might note, Kira's talents as a pilot would be irrelevant. He probably hoped that, if it came to a MS vs MS fight, Freedom would be elsewhere. He just couldn't decently send enough suits to defeat Kira otherwise, that'd mean open war against Orb, and he just wasn't ready for that.
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Old 2008-01-17, 17:35   Link #89
Dean_the_Young
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Many people have brought up many good clues pointing to Dullandle as the culprit. But then, in the words of Samuel Vimes, clues are a wonderful thing. You can walk around with a bunch of them in your back pocket.

Some delimmas that should be considered.

Coordinator commandos? You wouldn't know it by looking at them. Overpowered by a crippled coordinator, out-gunned and outperformed by a natural ex-mechanic-turned-captain-turned civilian with just a pistol? The fact that they were discovered as easily as they were? And these are supposed to be Dullandle's best and brightest, or at least best? Considering how back in Seed, when even Kira could physically manhandle Sai despite any experience in hand-to-hand, does no one see the problem in that?

And Ashe mobile-suits? Latest-off-the-lines MS are the kind of proof that any investigator dealing with SF would laugh at. Let's ignore the fact that ZAFT has a piss-poor record of keeping prototype MS safe, let alone production models. Or that we have a giant secret Military-Industrial Complex with connections everywhere in the Earth Sphere and especially in Orb and likely in ZAFT as well. Or that these top-secret models were known to Andy. No one with half a brain, and Dully counts as having three or more, would ever be stupid enough to arm Special Forces with any equipment that can only have come from one source. There's a reason that covert plausible-deniability units go around with gear that can be obtained from various sources, and that's been a fact for the last hundred years.

The notebook that Lacus sites as proof is also questionable, considering that it wasn't authored by Gil. And that while it said there would be un-needed people in the Destiny Plan, it said nothing about killing unneeded people off, and Mars (which is proof that the Destiny Plan works to prevent wars to prevent wars) has seen disaffected members peacefully leave without incident.
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Old 2008-01-17, 17:59   Link #90
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Many people have brought up many good clues pointing to Dullandle as the culprit. But then, in the words of Samuel Vimes, clues are a wonderful thing. You can walk around with a bunch of them in your back pocket.

Some delimmas that should be considered.

Coordinator commandos? You wouldn't know it by looking at them. Overpowered by a crippled coordinator, out-gunned and outperformed by a natural ex-mechanic-turned-captain-turned civilian with just a pistol? The fact that they were discovered as easily as they were? And these are supposed to be Dullandle's best and brightest, or at least best? Considering how back in Seed, when even Kira could physically manhandle Sai despite any experience in hand-to-hand, does no one see the problem in that?

And Ashe mobile-suits? Latest-off-the-lines MS are the kind of proof that any investigator dealing with SF would laugh at. Let's ignore the fact that ZAFT has a piss-poor record of keeping prototype MS safe, let alone production models. Or that we have a giant secret Military-Industrial Complex with connections everywhere in the Earth Sphere and especially in Orb and likely in ZAFT as well. Or that these top-secret models were known to Andy. No one with half a brain, and Dully counts as having three or more, would ever be stupid enough to arm Special Forces with any equipment that can only have come from one source. There's a reason that covert plausible-deniability units go around with gear that can be obtained from various sources, and that's been a fact for the last hundred years.

The notebook that Lacus sites as proof is also questionable, considering that it wasn't authored by Gil. And that while it said there would be un-needed people in the Destiny Plan, it said nothing about killing unneeded people off, and Mars (which is proof that the Destiny Plan works to prevent wars to prevent wars) has seen disaffected members peacefully leave without incident.
So... where in your argument suggest that Gilbert didn't have the only motive AND means to kill the real Lacus SECRETLY? He is the only suspect!

And as was kept saying, plausible deniability wasn't as important as killing the objective. That is because the suspect list was too short to be of any use; Gilbert is the prime suspect and no one else if it fails, so sending anything but the best is asking for trouble. He never intended to face Lacus face to face, that would already be too late.

(And did you simultaneously suggest that the personnel sent was horrible and that equipment was too good as both being evidence that Gilbert didn't do it? As Anh_Minh pointed out, the MS used was a last-resort. The intention was to kill Lacus on foot, and the MS used were only for infiltration.)

Saying that another faction other than Gilbert is trying to Kill Lacus is all well and good, but such a faction simply doesn't exist.
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Old 2008-01-17, 18:07   Link #91
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Wow... so much discussion over something so obvious... I love this forum
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Old 2008-01-17, 18:19   Link #92
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Wow... so much discussion over something so obvious... I love this forum
Not really. Most of us are just restating evidenced offered many pages back, and as such was only repeating ourselves. Some people just didn't read further back enough on this thread.

Many aspects of Destiny's presentation was sloppy, but that doesn't get Gilbert off the hook.
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Old 2008-01-17, 18:28   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So... where in your argument suggest that Gilbert didn't have the only motive AND means to kill the real Lacus SECRETLY? He is the only suspect!
Only? I would think that the Saharins, already scheming to take advantage of Cagelli's weak will and rule Orb themselves are a perfectly reasonable suspect. Especially since they have the means (LOGOS membership to get the MS from ZAFT logos plants/members), the motivation (knock out Cagelli's support base, making her riper for influence), and most importantly, the knowledge of where Kira, and by extension Lacus, was. That makes one group who actually knew where Lacus was; Gilbert explicitly denies knowing where she was. And while you can claim he was lying, how many times did Gilbert actually outright lie in the entire series?
Quote:

And as was kept saying, plausible deniability wasn't as important as killing the objective. That is because the suspect list was too short to be of any use; Gilbert is the prime suspect and no one else if it fails, so sending anything but the best is asking for trouble. He never intended to face Lacus face to face, that would already be too late.
That's not exactly the best argument for saying it was Gilbert; if he (or whoever did it) didn't care about plausible deniability, they wouldn't have sent in the commandoes. They would have taken the Ashes and blown up the orphanage with extreme firepower, killing Lacus in her bed as opposed to kindly letting her host have the time to figure out what was going wrong, figure out who the target was, and let them all get into the nice bomb-proof shelter. If plausible deniability wasn't an important concern, they wouldn't have tried the hard way (comandoes) first before trying to raze the orphanage with the MS. But since they didn't, it means that secrecy was important (though less so than completing mission), and if secrecy was important they wouldn't have used the equivalent of an Abrahms tank to do their door knocking.

Besides, there were other MS they could have used. ZAFT has super-secret submarines, they have much older amphibious MS that could just as easily blow up a stationary building, and if a bunch of coordinator brats can get an armed MS into the Atlantic Federation's Atlantic Seaboard in Ashtray, then ZAFT could get pre-established amphibious MS into Orb.


Quote:
(And did you simultaneously suggest that the personnel sent was horrible and that equipment was too good was both being evidence that Gilbert didn't do it?)
Yes, it makes more sense than the Lacus assumption.

We have people who are supposed to be highly trained, elite coordinators... except that they get overpowered by a cripple and a natural. They can't shoot a single person, and yet drop like flies when (space navy) Captain Ramius starts pulling acrobatics and shooting with a mere pistol, all despite their body armor. One man, in prime of his life, is outmuscled by a cripple who walks with a cane.

These people can not be logically considered coordinators by any judgement, and if they aren't coordinators they aren't automatically from PLANT, ie Gilbert.

Then we have the open display of the newest, inarguably, utterly genuine ZAFT machine (tm). On an island the size of Rhode Island, with the best military defense system on Earth with lavish spending on advanced tech of every kind, with a major naval presence, an establishment that is almost guaranteed to be able to spot these machines. A clue that conspicuous is the textbook example of a Red Herring. And when we have a nation like ZAFT, rife with gundam-jacks and stolen MS, getting an MS is less a matter of "how" and more a matter of "how much."

Coordinator comandoes who don't display any coordinator abilities or competance on the assault. Blatantly new and advanced MS that no one could expect to be sent by any other source (since the people who know LOGOS are basically the ones who are already members). The two bases of Lacus's accusation of Dullindal being the perpetrator, but each base is extremely shaky.
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Old 2008-01-17, 18:31   Link #94
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Not really. Most of us are just restating evidenced offered many pages back, and as such was only repeating ourselves. Some people just didn't read further back enough on this thread.

Many aspects of Destiny's presentation was sloppy, but that doesn't get Gilbert off the hook.
It does not change the fact that you're all discussing over and over something I think is not worth discussing. Especially with people who might as well say that "2+2" is not "4" and find a thousand explanations to support their argument. I heard there's someone who managed to "prove" it, but never really cared as to me and most other people 2+2 is four. Same thingwith Dullindal being the main villain of the show and the most probable culprit behind the attempted assasination of Lacus.
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Old 2008-01-17, 18:38   Link #95
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Only? I would think that the Saharins, already scheming to take advantage of Cagelli's weak will and rule Orb themselves are a perfectly reasonable suspect. Especially since they have the means (LOGOS membership to get the MS from ZAFT logos plants/members), the motivation (knock out Cagelli's support base, making her riper for influence), and most importantly, the knowledge of where Kira, and by extension Lacus, was. That makes one group who actually knew where Lacus was; Gilbert explicitly denies knowing where she was. And while you can claim he was lying, how many times did Gilbert actually outright lie in the entire series?
Ah, the Saharins... If it is indeed the Saharins, they had no need to kill Lacus at all; Cagalli was already under their control, and would soon lose power through marriage. In case you didn't realize, Cagalli was a drone for much of Destiny, and Lacus wasn't there to help out because she never asked for any help. There was nothing to gain, so no, it wasn't any ORB politicians.
(There also was, as we kept saying, no need to keep the death a secret at all, if ORB people did it.)

Oh, and the LOGOS membership came after their alliance with EA. When that happened, it becomes a bigger priority to remove Gilbert than it would be to kill Lacus. They would have preferred exposing Gilbert's lies with Meer instead.
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Old 2008-01-17, 18:54   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Ah, the Saharins... If it is indeed the Saharins, they had no need to kill Lacus at all; Cagalli was already under their control, and would soon lose power through marriage. In case you didn't realize, Cagalli was a drone for much of Destiny, and Lacus wasn't there to help out because she never asked for any help. There was nothing to gain, so no, it wasn't any ORB politicians.
The Saharins always kept over-reaching. They wanted an Earth-aligned policy, and forced the Minerva into an ambush. When Heaven's Base is thrashed, they believe Dij-whatever would turn it around and played protector for him. Why shouldn't they want to remove Lacus, one of the few people who can make Cagelli listen, out of the way? It'd be the coup de grace to completing their control over Cagelli. A Cagelli who only has Yuna to turn to is a Cagelli who will never, ever do something crazy like launch an invasion/overthrowal of the Orb government by military force.
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(There also was, as we kept saying, no need to keep the death a secret at all, if ORB people did it.)

Sure there was. Assassinations, especially of extremely popular international figures, aren't something you ever want to be associated with. Hence the half-assed attempt at a covert operation with obvious clues as to who was allegedly behind it. At the very least, openly killing a PLANT/ZAFT citizen held in high esteem by much of the populace would create a major diplomatic crisis between ZAFT and Orb, and be extremly unpopular with Orb's own signficant coordinator population. And obvious coverups would only make things worse, just look at what happened when Syria got caught with its hand in the political assassination jar.

When has it ever been good for a nation to openly kill a foreign politician for domestic partisian advantage?
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Oh, and the LOGOS membership came after their alliance with EA. When that happened, it becomes a bigger priority to remove Gilbert than it would be to kill Lacus. They would have preferred exposing Gilbert's lies with Meer instead.
Two things.

Where does it say that LOGOS membership came after the Orb-EA alliance? I distinctly don't remember it in the anime.

And again, what lies of Gilbert? Meer spent most of the series going "I hope for a peaceful end to the conflict" and "fight for peace, brave troops!" while shaking her can-cans to JPOP. The Destiny Plan promised one thing: and end to all wars. And Mars in CE is proof that the Destiny Plan would work. Gilbert said that LOGOS was a threat to humanity. And LOGOS starts off the war with a nuclear attack, and is shown throughout the series to be the force behind the scenes pushing for conflict. Gilbert even offers a choice to whether to accept the Destiny Plan or not, and as soon as only the Kingdom of Scandinavia rejects it Cagelli declares war and attacks.
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Old 2008-01-17, 19:06   Link #97
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I think that lying would not be a problem for a guy to whom sacrificing the whole colony and destroying the whole country is like a walk in the park
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Old 2008-01-17, 19:09   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Where does it say that LOGOS membership came after the Orb-EA alliance? I distinctly don't remember it in the anime.
If they have LOGOS membership earlier, they wouldn't need the ORB-EA alliance; The LOGOS connections came later, not earlier.
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Old 2008-01-17, 19:27   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If they have LOGOS membership earlier, they wouldn't need the ORB-EA alliance; The LOGOS connections came later, not earlier.
Not really, or at least no more than a rich family with political connections in one country can act in another country where the ruling family opposes such actions. Formally allying two powerful forces is much more effective and profitable then playing indirect inluence puppet master. Unlike in the AF, where Dijirble could call up the AF president and tell him to go to war, the Sahalin didn't have as much influence until Cagelli came along. Providing a bit of covert MS help is a small price to pay for the benefit of having Orb along for the ride, and would make the LOGOS position more secure.


And you still haven't explained how Dullindal was a liar.
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Old 2008-01-17, 19:36   Link #100
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
And you still haven't explained how Dullindal was a liar.
I assume I just need to give evidence for one lie to proven Gilbert is dishonest?

How about staging the Destroy battle to the public so that Archangel's involvement was edited out?

And of course, the entire business with Meer.... But you don't seem to think that is a lie at all.
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