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Old 2008-05-30, 12:59   Link #881
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikazewave View Post
Human technology has only been advancing at a rapid pace in recent years. Before then, technology never really improved quickly or rapidly.

Compare the life of a commoner living in the feudal ages with the lives of people living before then. They would have been almost similar, with only a few changes.

With society in Zero no Tsukaima revolving around magic, it would make sense that most people would be more interested in pursuing magic powers rather than set the foundations for scientific progress.

Imagine if a person from the early 1800s showed up. That person wouldn't have any technology different from what the Tristanians have already. They were still using ball shot muskets back then.

It appears that the magic wielding group of Brimir established rule over the other humans, and made it so that only members of their group can be nobles (thus the requirement to use magic rule). There doesn't appear to be any significant progress in the magic arts, so it's probably safe to assume that the land went through some dark age, and nobles were more keen on keeping their status than pursuing scientific endeavors. Only in recent times apparently do people like Colbert start showing up with magically guided arrows.

Colbert could make a killing with his new innovations.
Well, was it 6,000 years or 600 years?
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Old 2008-05-30, 13:30   Link #882
Darknemo2000
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gugumomu, I do not think the 3rd season will go to volume 14. Axctually i do not think it will reach up 13 volume as well since 13 and 14 volume have one arc basically.

I think 3 season will go between volumes 9-12 centuring mostly on 12....Why 12?

Its obvious as its based with random fanservice, no character development repetitive humor and is badly written (the last one is my personal opinion) without having much to do with actual plot... In other words - perfect for anime standards.

As for Henrietta... I do not think she will be the main boss but she could be the final one - the last obstacle specially if, as I think, Louise would leave together with Saito, she is unpredictable though, she might let them leave with good luck wish or might put them in prison like she did before... She is hard to predict but i do think she might be the last obstacle... Not saying that she will, but she does have the 'potential' so to say...

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-05-30 at 15:50.
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Old 2008-05-30, 14:23   Link #883
gugumomu
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yes, Henrietta does have the potential to become a obstacle. shes egoistic, thinking rather of her own problems then that of her friends. thing is, how much for her own personal sake and how much for the "good" of her country? because there isnt much she wants for herself after Wales was killed. beside the revenge. it will be a interresting to see what the autor has prepared for her character.
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Old 2008-05-30, 16:03   Link #884
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Well, was it 6,000 years or 600 years?
6000 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
gugumomu, I do not think the 3rd season will go to volume 14. Axctually i do not think it will reach up 13 volume as well since 13 and 14 volume have one arc basically.

I think 3 season will go between volumes 9-12 centuring mostly on 12....Why 12?

Its obvious as its based with random fanservice, no character development repetitive humor and is badly written (the last one is my personal opinion) without having much to do with actual plot... In other words - perfect for anime standards.
Just an observation, but you really like stressing how bad the anime is?
Mah, I understand... I guess.

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Originally Posted by gugumomu View Post
yes, Henrietta does have the potential to become a obstacle. shes egoistic, thinking rather of her own problems then that of her friends. thing is, how much for her own personal sake and how much for the "good" of her country? because there isnt much she wants for herself after Wales was killed. beside the revenge. it will be a interresting to see what the autor has prepared for her character.
She thinks of her friends too...
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Old 2008-05-30, 18:34   Link #885
ArchmageXin
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6000 years then it seem to be excessive...People should start developing alternatives, but I can see the Magic wielding class discouraged people from advancing. However, firearms are available....
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Old 2008-05-30, 18:38   Link #886
gabbytay
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6000 years with out technological advancement makes us Human(earth)/Earthling look smarter than them.
Hey what are the chances of earth losing a war to Louise's world.

It would be something like 500 well-trained American soldiers V.S 100000 Mages.
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Old 2008-05-31, 01:24   Link #887
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I would say that 10 square mages should be enough to take out 500 solders. With good tactics though.

Earth shield to protect from bullets and then release few tornados at soldiers and you will get a mass of dead bodies with cut off limbs and heads...

Saito is so insanely strong because he can move at incridible speed. A normal soldier would loose against strong mage without a doubt. That is if you keep a fight in distance.

However, if you were to use machines like tanks or planes then the outcome would be different

Still the reason why Saito and earth machines are so effective is also due to the point that they are too uncommon in their world thus no good defensive tactics against them prepared.
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Old 2008-05-31, 04:44   Link #888
azziz
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I would say that 10 square mages should be enough to take out 500 solders. With good tactics though.

Earth shield to protect from bullets and then release few tornados at soldiers and you will get a mass of dead bodies with cut off limbs and heads...

Saito is so insanely strong because he can move at incridible speed. A normal soldier would loose against strong mage without a doubt. That is if you keep a fight in distance.

However, if you were to use machines like tanks or planes then the outcome would be different

Still the reason why Saito and earth machines are so effective is also due to the point that they are too uncommon in their world thus no good defensive tactics against them prepared.
maybe to their world we(saito's world) would be as feared as the elf;it would be a good thing if both elf and human could have an enemy so strong than they would be forced to cooperate in order to survive-saito and tiffania could negociate the alliance.Beside it would be smarter for henrietta to ally with the elf against the pope and joseph(by the way why some elf seem to serve the latter?).
About a possible comon enemy,who were the people than brimir and the mage of his time were forced to fight?Were they Human?
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Old 2008-05-31, 08:12   Link #889
rastilin
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I would say that 10 square mages should be enough to take out 500 solders. With good tactics though.
Square mages are their all surpassing heroes, make it fair, make them fight the SAS or some other obscenely elite unit with 300 to 1 kill ratios.

Quote:
Earth shield to protect from bullets and then release few tornados at soldiers and you will get a mass of dead bodies with cut off limbs and heads...
You have a messed up idea of how people actually fight in this century. No-one bothers with head on attacks anymore. Not after the invention of the gatling cannon.

The wizards might win once, if that, then we start using real tactics.

* Sniper teams from 2 miles away.
* Tank armies.
* Gatling emplacements with RPG support.
* Radar guided anti air weapons.
* Artillery or rocket bombardments from beyond the horizon.
* Napalm or Cluster weapons.
* Bio weapons and tame diseases.
* Genetically engineered weeds to choke out their eco-system.
* Remotely guided drones with anti-infantry weapons.
* Nukes

You might have a misguided view of military might because the US keeps holding back, if they really went all out, they would be far more efficient.

Quote:
Still the reason why Saito and earth machines are so effective is also due to the point that they are too uncommon in their world thus no good defensive tactics against them prepared.
Saito himself has skill, but not tactics. One to one, a modern soldier is far superior to their ancient counterpart not just with weapons but also far higher levels of training and information access.
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Old 2008-05-31, 09:46   Link #890
TigerII
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One battalion of soldiers from Earth(Even if they were from one of the the less advanced countries) would decimate thousands of this world's military if allowed to wage total war[This means no restrictions. Civilians and combatants alike are wiped out, no restriction of weapons(Chemical, biological, nuclear), full use of landmines and anti-personnel explosives, etc.]
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Old 2008-05-31, 21:59   Link #891
hchuang
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The military talk is silly... your crack troops won't last very long before running out of steam unless they are given logistic support and can't function fully without the C4IRS. Once you are start adding these things in (such as launching couple of GPS satellites)it sort of take the shine off the whole "one lone battalion" veneer.
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Old 2008-05-31, 22:16   Link #892
TigerII
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They don't need modern tactics if the Louise World's troops use the tactics they have been. One massive army all nice and bunched. They wouldn't need logistical support or any help from GPS or satellite systems.
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Old 2008-05-31, 22:57   Link #893
gabbytay
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Originally Posted by hchuang View Post
The military talk is silly... your crack troops won't last very long before running out of steam unless they are given logistic support and can't function fully without the C4IRS. Once you are start adding these things in (such as launching couple of GPS satellites)it sort of take the shine off the whole "one lone battalion" veneer.
We can practically make them extinct with bio weapons. I mean even a 3rd world country(earth) could rip their world to pieces.
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Old 2008-05-31, 23:10   Link #894
rastilin
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I thought the whole point was that modern tactics and technology would win decisively. A crack troop won't win if they can't get food, ammo and information, that's pretty obvious. They'd win a few battles then starve and die.

You'd need to launch unmanned scout drones as soon as you establish a beach-head. Mine or blast infastructure to set up choke points against counter-attacks and defend those choke points with gatling emplacements.

One of the main benefits we'd have is the advantage of information, we have more tactical practice and ideas. If you seized a city, you could boost it's output overnight by instituting a total war economy, paying all unemployed citizens to work in mass factories, subsidizing guilds to get machines to boost worker output and so forth. You'd also improve morale by instituting nationalism, if you give people political freedom they'll fight way harder against the people who would "liberate" them and take those rights away. If you could seize a population center you'd be pretty much set, you could build gatling devices as well as a colt-45 equivalent to give your troops a fast and instant advantage in battle.
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Old 2008-06-01, 00:34   Link #895
TigerII
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You are thinking of fighting modern armies. If they fought the armies in this world, it was be a slaughter. The zero armies attack is massed goups. A few artillary rounds(Shrapnel) would decimate them. They don't use camouflage and they always announce themselves in battle. There is no suprise attacks. The modern force would always know wher ethey were. The supplies they started with would be enough to stop a zero army of a tens of thousands. Most likely after the first thousands fell, the remaining would run or surrender.

You keep pointing out details when fighting modern militaries. This is a modern versus a medieval(with mixes of late nineteenth century weapons).
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Old 2008-06-01, 01:10   Link #896
rastilin
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Well you're completely right, but why hold back?

EDIT: Even with full supplies, a modern army that doesn't prepare can still be overwhemed with sheer numbers. There's no excuse to be beaten with such a starting advantage.

Last edited by rastilin; 2008-06-01 at 01:20.
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Old 2008-06-01, 01:25   Link #897
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Well gas attack would not be as effective against someone who can control the air, literally.

Plus one void mage and modern army would be in great trouble with water spirit ring. Imagine an army of Waleses? That always revive even if you cut their heads off? Even if you tear them to pieces...

Army of Zombies can be scary thing specially if those zombies are thinking and are capable of magic. The gas attack would not be very useful simply because they are already dead and cannot die twice unless you kill the void mage or have another void mage to nullify effect, and if they would be wise, not idiots like Henrietta - meaning, not sending their void mage up to the frontlines (alone) and control the zombie army far far away.

modern army would be in advantage because they do have a better equipment and, what is probably more important, better information gathering, yet I would not underestimate the mage users specially if they would have at least one void mage.

Besides remember that they can always put spell on buildings. powerful spells that no other spells or things can penetrate. Meaning missles or bombs would not do anything against it, the only thing that could breake it is void...

A lot of depends on tactician. If their tactician would be someone like Henrietta then modern army would win within few minutes. If someone with brains that is capable of tactics - then the mage army could actually win against modern one.

But again - you have to have information about enemies and if you do not (and they dont thats why Saito and old weapons can be so powerful there) - they will be crushed in few seconds .

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-06-01 at 02:42.
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Old 2008-06-01, 04:02   Link #898
rastilin
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Quote:
Well gas attack would not be as effective against someone who can control the air, literally.
True, but they'd need to displace a MASSIVE amount of air nearly continually.

Quote:
Plus one void mage and modern army would be in great trouble with water spirit ring. Imagine an army of Waleses? That always revive even if you cut their heads off? Even if you tear them to pieces...
It can't do that, if it could then they'd have done so immediately. No point in bothering with anything sneaky, just toss them from the sky and have them walk to shore.

Quote:
Army of Zombies can be scary thing specially if those zombies are thinking and are capable of magic. The gas attack would not be very useful simply because they are already dead and cannot die twice unless you kill the void mage or have another void mage to nullify effect, and if they would be wise, not idiots like Henrietta - meaning, not sending their void mage up to the front-lines (alone) and control the zombie army far far away.
Naplam, besides you'd snipe the Void mage from miles away. The novel implies this isn't possible, but again, Naplam, cluster.

Quote:
Besides remember that they can always put spell on buildings. powerful spells that no other spells or things can penetrate. Meaning missles or bombs would not do anything against it, the only thing that could breake it is void...
The academy's tower wasn't warded against physical damage in the novel was it? Besides, I doubt it works against "anything", because that would include a Hydrogen bomb.

Quote:
A lot of depends on tactician. If their tactician would be someone like Henrietta then modern army would win within few minutes. If someone with brains that is capable of tactics - then the mage army could actually win against modern one.
Have you seen the stuff in use right now? It's insanely powerful. The stuff in R&D is even worse...

* Rail weapons that smite from 200 miles away (30 miles for now, need to shrink the power source and improve the capacitors)
* Exoskeletons (it works but they need to shrink the power source)
* Independent unmanned gatling emplacements with friend/foe identification (done and being deployed in korea)

Besides, what makes a person capable of magic? Is it a trainable skill or only trainable if you have a specific bloodline? What determines the element type?

Any possible advantage lasts only as long as it takes someone to get their hands on a mage's corpse and autopsy it. If it's mental, you can use a dye to track the flow of blood to the regions of a person's brain to track their thoughts.

Also, no-one's asked the important question. Where does the magic come from. How does it work? Is it generated as a field by the world that the mages can tap into with willpower or is it generated internally by the mage's own willpower. Because whatever the case is, it will be reverse engineered in a second, especially if there's such a thing as counter-magic.
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Old 2008-06-01, 04:16   Link #899
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
Besides, what makes a person capable of magic? Is it a trainable skill or only trainable if you have a specific bloodline? What determines the element type?

Also, no-one's asked the important question. Where does the magic come from. How does it work? Is it generated as a field by the world that the mages can tap into with willpower or is it generated internally by the mage's own willpower. Because whatever the case is, it will be reverse engineered in a second, especially if there's such a thing as counter-magic.
Most likely, bloodline. In volume 14, Brimir said that they were the Magi Race, and that is why they can use magic.

Destiny determines element type.


Haha, don't get your hopes up that this will be explained in the novel.
It isn't important. Just take it as it is. Just like many fantasy stories out there. So I feel, anyways.
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Old 2008-06-01, 04:39   Link #900
rastilin
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But that gives me a brilliant idea. You'd only need a blood sample, then as long as you can isolate the magic gene, you can use a retrovirus to insert the gene into your own soldiers. Or just mess up the power balance by giving it to EVERYONE, then provide training.

You can sequence a few dozen of your own men and a few dozen mages of a known type, then just look for the one key that shows up in all the mages, but none of the control group.

EDIT: Come to think of it, that would be a really compelling plotline.
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