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Old 2008-06-01, 06:09   Link #901
Darknemo2000
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rastilin, you do not need that much of strength just keep the wind and the gass will not be that much of problem. And with wind (not centered) you do not waste much magic even weaker mages can do it.

Actually - they can. Remember novels volume 4 chapter 9, they had their throats cut off (some even heads) and they had their hearts pierced by ice spears by Henrietta's guards yet they had no problem of healing themselves. Water magic is basic magic and can help healing wounds or putting bodies back together, it however cannot give life to someone who is dead. This is what void can do.

And yep tower was protected against any physical attack or magical. it is e very powerful spell but it would neutralize ANY attack as long as it is physical or normal magical that is. You need void to break through it

Atomic bomb wont be a problem however the radiation may be but again since you can control the air around you it won't be much problem either.

Another thing like it was noted in volume 4 chapter 9 the zombie army moves as a single unit having a single mind making them very synchronized. Thinking of such army of top mages that cannot be killed by normal means is bit scary.

Why Cromwell wasn't using such army to crush opponents - one thing it will take long since enemies do have magical protection (earth soldiers would not, though) second each unit wastes more and more of void mages power so you cannot make unlimited army. yet if you were to make such army of square mages then...

Remember Wales was practically the best in the zombie unit, but even he was not a top-class mage. Making a zombie unit from much better stuff would be pretty impressive.
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Old 2008-06-01, 06:33   Link #902
rastilin
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rastilin, you do not need that much of strength just keep the wind and the gass will not be that much of problem. And with wind (not centered) you do not waste much magic even weaker mages can do it.
That's not a perfect defense, it'll work a few times even if they can perfectly nullify it. Bonus points for using a really powerful agent. Hah, hit the crops with agent orange; no one bothers defending the crop fields from a gas attack.

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Actually - they can. Remember novels volume 4 chapter 9, they had their throats cut off (some even heads) and they had their hearts pierced by ice spears by Henrietta's guards yet they had no problem of healing themselves. Water magic is basic magic and can help healing wounds or putting bodies back together, it however cannot give life to someone who is dead. This is what void can do.
If water magic can be used to re-attach a decapiated head, that would be impressive. However I don't have that chapter, can anyone confirm that?

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And yep tower was protected against any physical attack or magical. it is e very powerful spell but it would neutralize ANY attack as long as it is physical or normal magical that is. You need void to break through it
Colbert said that physical attacks were the only weakness.

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Atomic bomb wont be a problem however the radiation may be but again since you can control the air around you it won't be much problem either.
How would a nuke not be a problem? You're thinking of fallout. They'd need to know about it. Regardless of having a completely impenetrable building, the air heating up to 50,000C would inconvenience the people inside. Not to mention, where does the energy come from? I mean the shockwave of force from any attack would diffuse into the impenetrable building, and go where? You can't create or destroy energy so it has to go somewhere. Presumably the spell has a suitably massive energy supply to deflect it with, but that's a limitation.

Now that I think about it, you'd need 4 square mages to cast it right? Not one square class mage has turned up in the entire series so far, odds are that there is no other building that is equally reinforced. Certainly no mention is made of such. A comparison could be made with Cheyenne mountain, it's great and all but there's only one of it.

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Why Cromwell wasn't using such army to crush opponents - one thing it will take long since enemies do have magical protection (earth soldiers would not, though) second each unit wastes more and more of void mages power so you cannot make unlimited army. yet if you were to make such army of square mages then...
So, logistical problems stop this tactic from being overpowering. That and it requires the DEATH OF YOUR OWN SIDE. The commanders would be less than enthused and any square mage wouldn't comply with it. Square mages are rare enough that you'd be hard pressed to find enough to fill a division much less draft them into your zombie army.

Note you haven't addressed the problem of getting the magery to the offensive side; the technology already exists to take a shot at it.
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Old 2008-06-01, 07:35   Link #903
Darknemo2000
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Well, Fouquet didn't used her Galem so i would figure that physical attacks are not the problems for the spell since Fouquet said she tried all of her attacks on it and it didn't work.

Her earth Golem would be powerful enough to break the wall if the physical damage would be the only weak point, but it seems like the curse can nullify any attack by it physical or magic, except for Void.

Water magic can heal back the torn off texture of human body. Judging from the description Wales head has been almost cut off yet he healed himself (we do not see the wound anymore later on).

However it is true that nuke affects can be only neutralized if you are constantly prepared or aware of attack right before it happens. Yet you forget that you can create walls of air to protect yourself from magic but not only from that from temperature as well so the heat and shock wave can be repelled by the wall of air.

Yet again this is all legitimate only if you know about the attack or if you can keep a constant guard but for constant guard you would drain your mages a lot, though for square mages that would be not that much problem as it would be for less powerful ones.

You are thinking that one would ask the permission of turn someone into zombie? Just kill them off (to kill of square mage would not be simply but you can do that specially if you have enough trust) and revive or, in harder way. let them fight the army, die and revive them. It would be much harder to do, but not impossible.

Remember that zombies are not thinking slower - they are as sharp as ever and they can use as powerful magic as before, just now they are infinitely loyal to you and cannot be killed.

So i think Louise's world is capable of winning against our world but only if they do know enough about our weapons and if they can build a good enough magic zombie army.

Remember that mages can use nature as well. Tsunamis, tornadoes, firewalls though more primitive than modern weapons can be just as effective in terms of killing.

Remember that we usually see the lightweight mages in action, and from the ones that we see the most Tabitha is the most powerful (not counting Louise) but even she is not that great too.

So yeah, I think that Louises world would still have shot. Assuming that you know enough and have a good tactician - having Henrietta as your leader = instant defeat.
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Old 2008-06-01, 08:24   Link #904
rastilin
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I suppose this is why I tend to dislike fantasy novels. All the reasoned arguments in the world can get blown away with "they have magic".

In practice however, things will be different. They couldn't deal with ONE fighter or ONE tank. Not one of either against an entire army. Speculation about what they could do is meaningless since they've proven to have zero skill so far. No barrier of air, no giant tornadoes or tsunamis, no square mages, nothing. I base MY theory on the known superiority of modern armed forces, even when they're holding back like the US, they can level a country in two weeks. When Saito takes a defeat using his weapons against a mage, I might re-evaluate my opinion, until then I'm pretty sure a crack squad with half-decent support could burn the world. Especially if they brought the ideals of the French Revolution with them.

EDIT: But I have my own question, is the other void familiar, the M something, from Earth or what? Because she upgraded the cannons on the ships before the first big battle, so she's pretty smart. She comes from the land of the elves and all...
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Old 2008-06-01, 08:41   Link #905
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Lol this ha turned into a fun argument about modern armies and fantasy armies, lol. And they may have magic that can stop a nuclear weapon, but they have to know about it first. Sneak that nuclear weapon in and detonte it without anyone knowing and it is all over.
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Old 2008-06-01, 08:51   Link #906
gugumomu
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their magic sure is powerfull, but there is a problem: the energy needed for casting spells doesnt last long, and the time needed for recharging it can vary from days to weeks. in all combats that Tabitha and Kirche are waging, they use their most powerfull spells only a few times after running low on SP.
a full on attack against a fully armed earth-army would only mean defeat for Halkeginia. guerrilla tactics would be better for them

magic hardend houses or objects? well, the Jormungants where magicaly protected, no spell, not even Void worked aainst them, no cannon did any damage. and the Tiger tanc made them look like scrap
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Old 2008-06-01, 09:32   Link #907
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I doubt they could block a couple of nukes equivalent or even greater than the tsar bomba.
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Old 2008-06-01, 09:58   Link #908
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Originally Posted by gugumomu View Post
their magic sure is powerfull, but there is a problem: the energy needed for casting spells doesnt last long, and the time needed for recharging it can vary from days to weeks. in all combats that Tabitha and Kirche are waging, they use their most powerfull spells only a few times after running low on SP.
a full on attack against a fully armed earth-army would only mean defeat for Halkeginia. guerrilla tactics would be better for them

magic hardend houses or objects? well, the Jormungants where magicaly protected, no spell, not even Void worked aainst them, no cannon did any damage. and the Tiger tanc made them look like scrap
so true...

magic depends on their willpower stored in their bodies and its not like they can replenish it that fast...

after all the mages have used up their magic power they become just ordinary humans, and the more powerful the spell the faster the energy is depleted, and most of the soldiers in their armies are not nobles anyway, some are just commoners who can use swords or other weapons, and we have guns!

Last edited by _kira_; 2008-06-02 at 00:23.
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Old 2008-06-01, 10:36   Link #909
gugumomu
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its i think stated than only less than 10% of Halkeginia's population are nobles. so, not much of a opposing force.
unless they start some fission/fusion of their own, if they can turn led into gold, than this means they can rearrange the protons/neutrons numbers inside a atom, so they could turn maybe even led into useable nuclear material. it would be a suicidal mission nevertheless, the mage has to kickstart the nuclear reaction in front of him
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Old 2008-06-01, 14:40   Link #910
Darknemo2000
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Well first thing no matter how good Kirche or Tabitha may look they are still not top class mages.

And it is true that you need to replenish your willpower once in a while but again square mages are square because the cost of the magic spells (in terms of willpower) is decreased a lot and more powerful as well.

But again it would be hard to find even ten square mages as they are very rare.

I am just talking about possibilities but only IF they would know what they are dealing with. And this is very low chance of happening, and if they would not they would be easily crushed.

I think Jormungants magical protection was weaker than the towers if we are talking about physical attack. But it is probably harder to put a really good spell on moving objects than mobile units anyway. Plus if they would know what they are dealing they would ignore magical protection side of the spell and center on physical one.

Most likely, Louise world would still loose in most probable scenario, yet I am saying that if circumstances are very good for them they might be rather dangerous even for the modern army. Still it has many IF's.

Is it me or in Louises world the best mages are usually middle aged rather than old? Normally the older mage the better stronger he is, but this might be not the case here. Seems logical as this is a perfect combination of knowledge and willpower, since with age willpower replenished slower. In here seems like willpower (in other alternative magical worlds it is usually known as mana) strongly depends on ones physical condition as you can recover it by fulfilling your physical needs.
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Old 2008-06-01, 14:53   Link #911
TigerII
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Many ifs, but all in all, the ultimate favor is in the modern force's side. Unless the few mages could attack them at camp or something, it wouldn't be much of a fight.
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Old 2008-06-01, 18:08   Link #912
Darknemo2000
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Well again, we do not know much of square mage spells, like can they do the teleportation spell or not (it would help a lot in war and so on).

Another thing - getting information about army would not be that hard. All that you would need - one dead soldier.

Since revived he would remember everything and would actually act the same as he was before. He would give out all the info mages would need to know, plus could be a good spy or diversant, like lets say setting up his whole camp into an ambush which would give more zombies units (considering that you do not have many square mages anyway the number should be enough).

Now you would have some of the modern weapons on your side plus - used by the soldiers who cannot die.

Well having a void surely gives many opportunities and do not forget that this is only a very small part of voids skills.

Voids are the best card that Louise's world can ever have, yet Henrietta sends her only void mage from one suicidal mission into another... while voids should be kept safe and sound, not getting too close to the front lines. Kind of silly from Henrietta and her generals, but again they are a bunch of idiots as far as strategy goes.

As for Louises world against modern world - most probable outcome would be still modern army winning yet you cannot exclude that Louises world can win at some circumstances either (circumstances consisting from many IF's but still I cannot say that it is completely impossible).
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Old 2008-06-01, 19:04   Link #913
TigerII
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Well yes, suprise attack would be the biggest and most obvious choice for Louise's world.
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Old 2008-06-01, 19:39   Link #914
rastilin
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When they discover the concept of "Mines" they WILL be surprised too.
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Old 2008-06-01, 19:48   Link #915
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Too many if's for Louise's world >_> how 'bout Earth if's . If we have mechs with modern weapons they wont have any luck in reviving or killing it. We have UAV and possible U manned tanks. Hypersonic planes which on research for military purposes. A possible plasma shield if we have enough energy to produce it on a large scale.

We have Bombers that can't be hit with magic and dragon attacks. U.S has the f-22 or even scram jets. We have the population and production capabilities (look at china >_> ) for an all out war. We can manufacture disease(smallpox) and plague(genetic recombination virus). If magic is based on DNA then we can use it to its full potential.

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When they discover the concept of "Mines" they WILL be surprised too.
this made me lol
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Old 2008-06-02, 00:21   Link #916
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how come the novel hasnt even shown 1 square mage? its as if they dont exist in the current story line, i expected that osman is at least a square mage but it seems that he is not that strong...

another thing is maybe the reason they want the holy lands is beacuse there are lots more of our technology that is in there and every nation wants it to upgrade their arnies and lessen the reliance on mages and nobles for wars...
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Old 2008-06-02, 00:52   Link #917
rastilin
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Good points, but I also want to hear about the female void familiar. Don't we know anything about her?
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Old 2008-06-02, 04:29   Link #918
serenade_beta
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another thing is maybe the reason they want the holy lands is beacuse there are lots more of our technology that is in there and every nation wants it to upgrade their arnies and lessen the reliance on mages and nobles for wars...
Except they don't know how to use them.
Plus, I highly doubt they want to rely less on mages. We are talking about a world where mages and nobles are all on high horses and looks down on normal things.

I think it is solely for religious reasons, but since we are talking about that crack pope, I can't be certain.

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Good points, but I also want to hear about the female void familiar. Don't we know anything about her?
1. She can use magic items.
2. A crazy fangirl of Joseph, who is her reason to live and she gets jealous at Saito/Louise because Joseph would never treat her like that.
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Old 2008-06-02, 07:04   Link #919
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how come the novel hasnt even shown 1 square mage? its as if they dont exist in the current story line, i expected that osman is at least a square mage but it seems that he is not that strong...

another thing is maybe the reason they want the holy lands is beacuse there are lots more of our technology that is in there and every nation wants it to upgrade their arnies and lessen the reliance on mages and nobles for wars...
Aren't both colbert and tabitha square mage?And very likely that marquis who worked for crommwel with fouquet(forgot his name)and louise mother;that make four.
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Old 2008-06-02, 08:10   Link #920
serenade_beta
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Aren't both colbert and tabitha square mage?And very likely that marquis who worked for crommwel with fouquet(forgot his name)and louise mother;that make four.
Colbert is a triangle mage.
Tabitha was a triangle mage until volume 13, where she learned to use square class spells.

Louise's mother is indeed a square mage.
Waldo is also a square class mage, if that is the Marquis you are talking about.

Orlean (Tabitha's father) was also one, but he is dead.
Vasso was one too, but he died in volume 14.

That should be all. So 2, 3 if you count Tabitha.
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