AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-12-07, 15:29   Link #281
mikyu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by X207 View Post
so is it legit or fabricated?
... ?? what do you mean?
mikyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-07, 15:57   Link #282
Renegade334
Exitus Acta Probat
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Permanent retirement from raws-hunting
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikyu View Post
... ?? what do you mean?
I think he wanted to say 'is it misleading/very well-drawn fanart disguised as a batch of official pics or is it genuine, official footage?'

And the answer is: it's from Newtype's latest release. Scans are already hopping around like bunnies. So yeah, it's legit.
__________________
<< -- Click to enter my GFX thread.

-- Permanently retired from the raw-hunting business --
Renegade334 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-07, 18:12   Link #283
mikyu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
And the answer is: it's from Newtype's latest release. Scans are already hopping around like bunnies. So yeah, it's legit.
ahh ... I never thought it might be a fake since it's confirmed that he's in zaft so there would be no point in faking a newtype cover with a zaft kira ...
however ... need that newtype!
mikyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-07, 21:42   Link #284
kira-sama
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Send a message via MSN to kira-sama Send a message via Yahoo to kira-sama
same with you mikyu
at first i think kira join the zaft was fake when that was already legal i was totally down "sigh"

i think kira will join orb and athrun will join zaft or they two join orb
kira-sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-08, 10:20   Link #285
iamthelordyourgod
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a place where i am comforted
Age: 20
(screams like a girl and faints) OMFG!!!!
The world seems different now......
like death.........
(faints literally)
__________________
"The pleasure of one can be the pleasure of all but as one may notice is that the pain and suffering of one could lead to the death of many............"
-Iamthelordyourgod (thats me)
iamthelordyourgod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-08, 16:41   Link #286
tetsuo69
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nyc
do you guys happen to know what it says under screen caps?




is it me or it seems like kira apart from being a white coat(captain) shin,luna,meyrin,doom troopers are under his command now that he a white coat and most likely has his own ship.
__________________
tetsuo69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-08, 17:08   Link #287
mikyu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
the more info I get, the more dislike I the thought of kira being in zaft.

I think I won't like the explanation they will present in SEIII
mikyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-09, 04:13   Link #288
ila-chan
ermmm...
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: definitely not here
he did say in GS that he will never join ZAFT
a man of (broken) words indeed...
__________________
my life revolves only on these things...

my final year project

my beloved akane the laptop

all bishonen guys ever existed in the history of manga




The rest could just go along with me or go to hell
ila-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 01:01   Link #289
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
This is getting a little off-topic in the other thread, so I'll accede to Obi-wan's request and move it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Orb was supposedly his home for those two years between SEED and Destiny, did that cement any loyalty on his part to Orb AND Cagalli? Regardless if he was a civilian, you’d think have absorbed some of Orb’s ideals at the time, but he still wanted to do his own thing and found it so easy to join ZAFT.
That proves my point. Athrun couldn't use so much as his own name in Orb. While he resided there, he literally didn't have a place in Orb. Hence he didn't think of Orb as his home, and he naturally gravitated towards PLANT and Durandal again. The situtation would be quite different in Cosmic Era 73.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Anyway, it still stands that fighting for peace is an oxymoronic as fighting to stop large-scale war. At the end of SEED, Kira and Co were fighting for peace and not for any other reason. They were fighting both sides to end the war.
Fighting for peace may seem counterintuitive, but isn't an oxymoron at all. It's quite necessary to create the conditions for a peace settlement of one kind or another, and a country or people that doesn't fight to create favorable conditions will find it forced upon them. Moreover, it's the standard mode for most countries involved in a war. I prefer rewording the term to "fighting to achieve peace" - this seems to be a more accurate description of the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Do you have concrete proof that PLANT has an autonomous police force? Either way, I would be inclined to believe they did have some sort of civilian police force, but I was just curious if you remember any incidents where they were mentioned?
No, but not only is it highly implied, but it's an organization that's basic to every modern nation. Why do you think PLANT should prove to be an exception?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
There may be no rebellion now, but what about a potential group in the future who opposes Lacus, it can happen you know, and wants to stage a coup?
Again these are better addressed by the police or by intelligence apperatuses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But police solely have jurisdiction in their own borders, they have no authority outside their borders, unless there was some sort of international police force.. And of course not all nations define terrorist or extremists in the same manner, some might even provide safe havens for terrorists that threaten your national security. Since this is an external matter, I think the military would be involved.
Not quite. A nation that is threatened by nongovernmental enemies outside of its borders normally employ diplomatic measures to address them. The military wouldn't be involved unless diplomatic measures have failed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But that was my point in using the Bundeswehr analogy, meaning that an organization that has no intention to fight in official war, unless in defense, might actually have to fight and kill and use violence for other reasons.
How does this address any of my arguments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But you’re only looking at the world through one political lens. Many different nations have many different perceptions of survival and that is dependent often on the geopolitical climate. Anything can be construed to suit the definition of survival or national interest. For example, you mentioned territorial ambitions as not being in anyway related to survival. I disagree completely, territorial ambitions are vital to a nation’s survival in a lot of cases. Most often they provide key resources that your country needs…it could be as simple as water or as complicated as oil.
To be accurate, your statement should read, "Anything can be misconstrued to suit the definition of survival or national interest." As far as Kira would be concerned, the points that you bring up are unacceptable reasons for employing military force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Nobody’s arguing that ZAFT is some belligerent army that’s going to conquer the world, but Kira wouldn’t join ZAFT unless he was prepared to fight. Why would he believe that Lacus could bend ZAFT to her will? And that’s presuming that Lacus can predict a future of eternal peace for the PLANTS. Lacus doesn’t control the political climate of the world, unexpected things do happen. ZAFT may have to fight, and Kira as a soldier in ZAFT, would have to fight as well. An installed military organization cannot be erased overnight just because Lacus decides that there’s no need for fighting? How is she supposed to enforce peace without a sword in the first place?
Again, fight whom? You seem to be arguing on the basis that I've been claiming that Kira would never have to sortie again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Again, switching armies is not a thing done casually or realistically should be done casually. An army is built on loyalty and dedication, jumping between nations for no pressing reasons just isn’t done. Switching allegiances between nations is highly suspect, especially because it’s not a necessary move. It’s not simple regime change in one nation, it’s crossing the borders of a former enemy nation. Do you think people will trust Kira? Can his history and former citizenship be so easily erased?
While I wouldn't classify joining a foreign military as a casual matter, why do you think it be so impossible? The biggest hurdle after all, is whether the ZAFT would accept him (in the legal sense). As precedents, they neither seemed to have much difficulty accepting Athrun again, nor have they shown any hesitation in accepting Orb citizens. Citizenship is as important an issue as the people in charge of PLANT desire it to be, so it might well be a trivial matter. That's not to say that everyone in ZAFT would actually trust Kira, but that's an altogether different matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But that’s presumptuous to believe that ZAFT will never have to engage in battle again just because Lacus is in charge.
How does this address any of my arguments? I've never argued that ZAFT would "never have to engage in battle again".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But aren’t you arguing that he joined ZAFT in the first place because he expected not to engage in active combat? Shouldn’t that play a major part in his decision to join ZAFT if he’s so against fighting in the first place?
No, my argument all along has been that, from Kira's perspective, PLANT had no imminent enemies. Therefore, he would be joining up a ZAFT that's unlikely to fight any wars. This fact would play a role in Kira's decision, but it's not the role that you might think; if ZAFT was likely to engage in any unnecessary fighting, then Kira would pass it up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ila-chan
he did say in GS that he will never join ZAFT
a man of (broken) words indeed...
During World War II: "We will never align ourselves with Germany and Japan!" - the U.S.
After World War II: "(West) Germany and Japan are our close allies!" - the U.S.

It doesn't mean that the United States was hypocritical, it just means that circumstances change, and can lead to unforeseen results.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...

Last edited by 4Tran; 2006-12-20 at 01:29.
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 01:09   Link #290
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Anyone that opposes the empress shall be crushed underfoot of the Strike Freedom!
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 02:17   Link #291
kira-sama
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Send a message via MSN to kira-sama Send a message via Yahoo to kira-sama
i don't understand why fukuda put kira in ZAFT
that's give me mad "ggrrr"
kira-sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 02:59   Link #292
KiraYamatoFan
No end to my talents
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by kira-sama View Post
i don't understand why fukuda put kira in ZAFT
that's give me mad "ggrrr"
I just hope the Special Edition will give us a clear answer on that matter because Kira supposedly has almost everything as an Orb officer since Cagalli took over the Orb government back: he was promoted to the rank of general as a citizen of Orb, commander-in-chief of the Orb space and air fighter command (by that I mean MS and anything related to the air fighters), and was supposedly one of the most powerful people after Cagalli in the Orb government as her brother.

I wonder what Lacus could have told Kira in order to convince him to follow her to the PLANTs. I know the PLANTs/ZAFT need to rebuild their government with people (politicians and officers) Lacus would trust. However, aren't there enough people (Andy, DaCosta, Yzak, Dearka, Shiho, Luna, Shinn, Meyrin, Hilda and her wingmates, most of the ZAFT Desert division under Andy's command and more - not to forget all the other people in ZAFT from the shadows who followed her in both wars) from the PLANTs/ZAFT themselves whom she would trust in order to solidify her position as the new leader?

I would like to know a little more in January. But I would still believe that as a military officer, Kira was fine where he was in Orb with the legitimate power he has as well as with the environment to work with (The Archangel).
__________________
GREEN AND GOLD STRONG. GLAZERS OUT!
KiraYamatoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 04:54   Link #293
Naive
Tabloid Journalist
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Where the Sidewalk Ends
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
That proves my point. Athrun couldn't use so much as his own name in Orb. While he resided there, he literally didn't have a place in Orb. Hence he didn't think of Orb as his home, and he naturally gravitated towards PLANT and Durandal again. The situtation would be quite different in Cosmic Era 73.
But you’re ignoring the gist of my argument which still is of course he can develop loyalty, but he shouldn’t be placed in charge of Orb’s fleet without having some proof of loyalty in the first place. It’s like giving an underage kid a bottle of alcohol and expecting him to wait till he’s 21 to open it based on a promise of good faith. It should be the other way around in that case and in this case: loyalty first then power.

Not handing him power on the presumption that Athrun might develop loyalties toward Orb. Don’t you think his record might also be taken into account? There’s a reason why traitors aren’t trusted, even by the nations who they betrayed their countries for. But of course, he’s Cagalli’s boyfriend, so he gets an automatic promotion, though you’d think she would suspect him most .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tran
Fighting for peace may seem counterintuitive, but isn't an oxymoron at all. It's quite necessary to create the conditions for a peace settlement of one kind or another, and a country or people that doesn't fight to create favorable conditions will find it forced upon them. Moreover, it's the standard mode for most countries involved in a war. I prefer rewording the term to "fighting to achieve peace" - this seems to be a more accurate description of the process.
Actually, just google “fighting for peace” and oxymoron together and you’ll find it placed on a ton of oxymoron lists. So your definition is not completely standard either.

And fighting to stop a war from escalating can be completely twisted to fit your parameters as well. I mean you can probably put crushing rebellions/uprisings/terrorist operations in that category, a standard process. It’s still quite necessary for peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
No, but not only is it highly implied, but it's an organization that's basic to every modern nation. Why do you think PLANT should prove to be an exception?
I never said PLANT would be an exception, I was just curious if they’d been mentioned. Besides, as I said before, in times of War, the military can take upon duties traditionally associated with the police. Now, I’m not saying that PLANT has no police force, but I was just curious if they were mentioned and in what context to better figure out how integrated PLANT and ZAFT are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Again these are better addressed by the police or by intelligence apparatuses
Not Quite, that depends on the politics of the nation. Actually if it’s a coup attempt, it’s usually associated with military takeover. Meaning a group or a political leader usually gains control of one part of the military and use it to overthrow the current leader. Having a police force manage something like this isn’t feasible.

As for a fringe example, look at the Junius 7 drop, a ZAFT force was sent out to try and prevent Zala’s supporters from succeeding and this supposedly was during a period of peace. They didn’t use the police, they used the military to try and prevent large-scale violence. Nobody saw this coming. Where was the intelligence? Unpredictability is always part of the game, using the military for “non-conventional” reasons is sometimes required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Not quite. A nation that is threatened by nongovernmental enemies outside of its borders normally employ diplomatic measures to address them. The military wouldn't be involved unless diplomatic measures have failed.
Yes, but again, usually terrorists groups flower in failed states or states sympathetic to their cause. They might choose not to cooperate which puts the PLANTs in a tough position where military force may be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
How does this address any of my arguments?
It addresses your argument in the fact that Kira cannot go into ZAFT and presume that the military will be deployed for only self-defense reasons. Militaries have several different functions.

For example, humanitarian intervention is considered a more “accepted” use of the military because usually there is some large-scale catastrophe, genocide, or ethnic cleansing going on. This violation of human rights allows the states to bypass the traditional accepted norm of state sovereignty to send a military force to stop the killing, of course by killing.

Although it’s controversial, the international community is more likely to accept this use of force because it’s better than doing nothing. Again states do not work in a vacuum, if there are massive human rights violations going on, PLANT may feel obligated to intervene. Kira may be deployed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
To be accurate, your statement should read, "Anything can be misconstrued to suit the definition of survival or national interest." As far as Kira would be concerned, the points that you bring up are unacceptable reasons for employing military force.”
How is that misconstrued? If you need certain resources for your country that affects its survival, of course it’s vital to for territorial conquests. For example, after WWII, the Soviet Union came out more battered than any other country. It lost the most people, it lost the most resources, and its cities and lands laid in ruin. To survive, to keep a decent standard of living, they stayed in Eastern Europe. They not only occupied the land but they transported those countries’ resources to the Soviet Union.

It may not be fair and it may not be ethical, but to them it was survival, and of course some sense of entitlement, after fighting such a terrible war that cost so much. National interest is not a static concept it’s very fluid. It changes due to the circumstances of the time and it is never benevolent.

Politicians control the use of the military not Kira. He can’t expect ZAFT to only fight based on his perception of “just military use” because that’s not how it works. He should immediately take off his uniform if he’s that naïve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Again, fight whom? You seem to be arguing on the basis that I've been claiming that Kira would never have to sortie again.
I’m arguing on the basis of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
In this case, if Kira thought that he would be involved in any unnecessary fighting, then he wouldn't join ZAFT. In fact, there's only two conditions that would convince him to join up: if a new war was in the offing and ZAFT offered him the best way of ending it, or if he thought that he could accomplish something outside of combat. Since the former doesn't seem to be the case, the latter appears to be.
You’re essentially arguing that since they are no visible enemies at the time, Kira put on his uniform based on the idea that he wouldn’t have to fight. I’m arguing that its naïve to presume Kira would actually think he wouldn’t have to fight when he put on his ZAFT uniform because militaries are deployed for a variety of reasons: national interest and humanitarian interest, or sometimes both.

Lets say PLANT doesn’t want to use their military for humanitarian purposes, the national interest still can be a whole number of things. There are so many factors involved that determine the survival of one’s people and many of them can be unpredictable. So, Kira as a soldier, when he puts on his uniform must be prepared to fight. As a soldier, you must always be prepared to fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
While I wouldn't classify joining a foreign military as a casual matter, why do you think it be so impossible? The biggest hurdle after all, is whether the ZAFT would accept him (in the legal sense). As precedents, they neither seemed to have much difficulty accepting Athrun again, nor have they shown any hesitation in accepting Orb citizens. Citizenship is as important an issue as the people in charge of PLANT desire it to be, so it might well be a trivial matter. That's not to say that everyone in ZAFT would actually trust Kira, but that's an altogether different matter.
I’m not arguing about the plot-devices of the CE world that allowed Athrun to join ZAFT again. In order for Destiny to succeed, Athrun had to be on ZAFT’s side, no questions asked, and of course he had to defect again. And if it’s so easy for ZAFT to accept him again, why isn’t he back there after his second defection? He has his friends, friends in the military, and he still cares about the PLANTs? Is there some rule that you can only defect once and the second time you’re a traitor?

I’m arguing about how realistic this situation is, or whether Orb and ZAFT should be logically making this decision. Loyalty, dedication, and nationalism are the glue that holds militaries together, that’s why the worst thing you can do is commit treason. Citizenship is important for most countries, and I would assume ZAFT would, because it’s the inherent standard used to measure loyalty and conviction to the fatherland. And it’s honestly a very useful and truthful standard most of the time.

Now, my assumption is that when Kira puts on a ZAFT uniform he knows he has to be loyal to ZAFT. He knows he’s going to have to fight when ZAFT orders him to. He knows that as a member of an institution, he cannot solely serve his individual interests, he has to think about the collective whole. Kira has to adapt to ZAFT, not the other way around.

When Kira puts on his ZAFT uniform, he’s not serving Lacus, but he’s serving the PLANTs. Just like when you join the U.S. military you’re not serving George W. Bush, you’re serving America. His loyalty goes to PLANTs first and foremost, that’s how a military should be run. He shouldn’t join ZAFT with the mindset that believes the uniform is expendable at anytime.

PLANTs is a nation. Nations aren’t ethical on the whole, they have to think of national security interests, and sometimes this involves infringing on another nation’s right to sovereignty. Politicans have dirty hands and nations have dirty hands. Sometimes you have to be belligerent to survive. I’m not saying that the PLANTs are automatically going to be involved in belligerent actions, but as a soldier you have to be prepared to fight for your nation even when they do commit ruthless acts.

Last edited by Naive; 2006-12-20 at 13:58.
Naive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 05:23   Link #294
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
Here's another theory... let's just think that Kira works in the Eternal. Therefore, He should wear a ZAFT Uniform. Besides, All staff of the Eternal have ZAFT Uniforms.

Seriously, this is just a take based on the pictures shown. If someone really put this up into perspective, why aren't we getting translations for those scans with Kira's White ZAFT uni?

And I think this explanation fits Kira's personality very well. Unless the articles from the scans tell us otherwise, I think the white ZAFT Uni is for Aesthetic purposes only.
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 05:48   Link #295
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Why are we arguing issues of loyalty? If anything, Athrun's loyalty to something as fragile and unnerving as a 'country' should've been shaken and crumbled into pieces by the end of the 1st war. One major recurring theme of SEED in general is very apparent in Kira and Athrun, being as "what the hell do we want to do and should do!?", and in a way, Kira and Athrun still haven't really got a grasp of that. They've learned what they should not do, and have both chosen to protect those who are both important to them and KNOWS what they want to do (( aka Lacus/Cagalli-post GSD )), so as literal as it stands, the most important issue here is more relatively who Athrun and Kira's loyalty lie to as opposed to 'what' and 'where'. It may sound relatively selfish, but technically Athrun's choice to return to ZAFT in GSD is ultimately judged by his own questioning of what he should do as Athrun Zala, not really as anything else. It might sound exagerrating, but I don's see Athrun and Kira as the type of people in the world to go "*insert country name* NO TAMENI".

On the issue of Kira being on the battlefield...please. If GSD was anything to go by, returning back to his love-shack and rocking chair would be the last thing he would do while he can still flex his SEED and Freedom(s). One aspect of Kira in GSD is that he has chosen to come into terms with what he can do and will do it, even if he as Kira Yamato doesn't want to in his heart. Last anyone would argue is Kira's distaste of being in the battlefield and fighting, probably killing, but he still conducts it, because he can, and those he care about (( Lacus, Cagalli, etc )) depend on him one way or another, and the only way he could help ease their burden is by being their sword. It's obvious Kira joins ZAFT with the knowledge that he WILL fight, because it is his choice. Whether or not he will in the end choose to fight for an ideal or a nation is irrelevant in the short run, which is what we're looking at in the moment.

When looking into the rationale of Kira in ZAFT aka PLANT militia, we need to look into the state of international affairs in a different manner as well post-GSD. It's clear that in the end of GSD, Cagalli has learned that she cannot stay in her father's shadow. I believe it's half-clear that ORB will semi-abandon the whole NEUTRALITY NO MATTER WHAT stance Uzumi stood for and will take charge in ensuring that wars doesn't occur again, and in that manner, it can be presumely assumed that ORB for one would be strongly assosiated with other nations, especially the crumbled Earth Nations and PLANT if a sense of peace were to be maintained. Clearly one reason the 2nd war started SO easily was because not just of the terrorist attacks, but neither side came in proper terms with each other even throughout their 2 years of "peaceful co-existence". Gilbert cared for shit other than DP, and EA are all BC/Logos elitist. So, if we're judging by standards, Kira in ZAFT if alongside Lacus and the rest being mediators of 'true peaceful coexistence mediators stationed in PLANT', then it would albietly make some sense. Naturally it only works in the short run of genuine peace where PLANT and Earth in general are at peace and the military forces are only to ensure that peace stays. The matter of PLANT starting another war is probably one of a more long-term issue, and if Lacus is there, I don't really think the bad inner-circle of Blue Coordinator Cosmos could even lift a finger by the time Lacus and Kira wiped them out.
__________________
Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.

The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 22:28   Link #296
KiraYamatoFan
No end to my talents
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
On the issue of Kira being on the battlefield...please. If GSD was anything to go by, returning back to his love-shack and rocking chair would be the last thing he would do while he can still flex his SEED and Freedom(s). One aspect of Kira in GSD is that he has chosen to come into terms with what he can do and will do it, even if he as Kira Yamato doesn't want to in his heart. Last anyone would argue is Kira's distaste of being in the battlefield and fighting, probably killing, but he still conducts it, because he can, and those he care about (( Lacus, Cagalli, etc )) depend on him one way or another, and the only way he could help ease their burden is by being their sword. It's obvious Kira joins ZAFT with the knowledge that he WILL fight, because it is his choice. Whether or not he will in the end choose to fight for an ideal or a nation is irrelevant in the short run, which is what we're looking at in the moment.
How can Kira be sure that he will fight if he goes under ZAFT colors? What I mean is that Orb is already known after the second war that this little country will be aggressive enough if something goes wrong in either the ranks of the EA or the PLANTs, so some military work is already in the plans of Cagalli's administration. Nonetheless, Kira does a great job with the Orb armed forces as their space and air fighter commander, a general or sky marshall.

Kira already has a place to be useful with his skills. The question I meant to ask is: with all the influential, powerful and skillful people/soldiers (Andy, DaCosta, Yzak, Dearka, Shiho, Shinn, Luna, Meyrin, Hilda and her linemates, Andy's entire Tiger division, all the engineers and other people who already defected towards Lacus' army) Lacus managed to gather around her politics at her ascension to the "trone", isn't there enough good people to trust in PLANT already?

Why need an extra man like Kira in ZAFT with all the "artilery" (rather the personel) gathered from ZAFT under Terminal? I don't think ZAFT need more trusted big guns to "play the game" with a chip on the shoulder if any war starts in the future.
__________________
GREEN AND GOLD STRONG. GLAZERS OUT!
KiraYamatoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-20, 22:51   Link #297
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Fark. My super long post dissapeared half-way replying. Here's the short gist.

ORB is but a small island. Maintaining peace is more than just flexing influence and a small elite group of armed military personnel, but rather having both sides having people of power who shares the same ideals of peace, and will work together in face of any conflict that threatens to spark into war and bloodshed. Cagalli helms ORB and probably most neutral nations who are allied to ORB. I can't say how she'll be involved wholely against Atlantic and Eurasia, but it's hardly a problem for a few years since even rebuilding trust and EA's political structure may take years, and probably supervised by "the people of peace".

Is there any other need for a reason for Kira to be in PLANT aka CF as opposed to ORB aka House of Attha other than Lacus Clyne?
__________________
Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.

The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 00:21   Link #298
Deacon Blues
Supreme Grocer
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Send a message via AIM to Deacon Blues Send a message via MSN to Deacon Blues
Um... Athha doesn't rule Orb. There are five, yes five, ruling families. :/
__________________
「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
Deacon Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 03:40   Link #299
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But youíre ignoring the gist of my argument which still is of course he can develop loyalty, but he shouldnít be placed in charge of Orbís fleet without having some proof of loyalty in the first place. Itís like giving an underage kid a bottle of alcohol and expecting him to wait till heís 21 to open it based on a promise of good faith. It should be the other way around in that case and in this case: loyalty first then power.
I didn't address that argument because I didn't think it was very important. Orb's military doesn't operate like most modern militaries do. Instead, it seems to rely a fair bit on nepotism. Besides, Cagalli understands Athrun about as well as anyone else in the world with the exceptions of Kira and Lacus, so wouldn't she be one of the best judges of how much to trust him (this even ignores the fact that she's already trusted him with her life)?

Finally, Athrun's position is still unknown. We have nothing to show that he's going to lead Orb's fleets. For all we know, he might be put in charge of Assault Haro production, or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Actually, just google ďfighting for peaceĒ and oxymoron together and youíll find it placed on a ton of oxymoron lists. So your definition is not completely standard either.
Examining the reasoning behind an argument is far superior to just looking at internet lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
And fighting to stop a war from escalating can be completely twisted to fit your parameters as well.
Not quite. Escalation, by definition, is to increase the amount of violence in a conflict. Historically, an outside force trying to keep a local conflict from escalating tends to have the opposite effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Not Quite, that depends on the politics of the nation. Actually if itís a coup attempt, itís usually associated with military takeover. Meaning a group or a political leader usually gains control of one part of the military and use it to overthrow the current leader. Having a police force manage something like this isnít feasible.
That's why I included intelligence apparatuses as well. If any part of the military wanted to attempt a coup, then there should be evidence of their plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
As for a fringe example, look at the Junius 7 drop, a ZAFT force was sent out to try and prevent Zalaís supporters from succeeding and this supposedly was during a period of peace. They didnít use the police, they used the military to try and prevent large-scale violence. Nobody saw this coming. Where was the intelligence? Unpredictability is always part of the game, using the military for ďnon-conventionalĒ reasons is sometimes required.
Again, that proves my point. The military is quite ineffective at preventing such activity. If PLANT had been running things properly, their intelligence should have found out about the extremists earlier, and if they needed the help, called ZAFT in before the Zala supporters started their attack. I haven't tried to claim that militaries are completely incapable of helping with domestic issues, but the fact is that other agencies are far better suited as the primary solution for dealing with such issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Yes, but again, usually terrorists groups flower in failed states or states sympathetic to their cause. They might choose not to cooperate which puts the PLANTs in a tough position where military force may be required.
In that case, it would be a war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
It addresses your argument in the fact that Kira cannot go into ZAFT and presume that the military will be deployed for only self-defense reasons. Militaries have several different functions.
I've never claimed anything about ZAFT's deployment. I've been strictly talking about how the kind of fighting ZAFT is likely to be involved in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
How is that misconstrued? If you need certain resources for your country that affects its survival, of course itís vital to for territorial conquests. For example, after WWII, the Soviet Union came out more battered than any other country. It lost the most people, it lost the most resources, and its cities and lands laid in ruin. To survive, to keep a decent standard of living, they stayed in Eastern Europe. They not only occupied the land but they transported those countriesí resources to the Soviet Union.
While taking the resources of Eastern Europe helped the Soviet Union, it was hardly necessary for its survival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
It may not be fair and it may not be ethical, but to them it was survival, and of course some sense of entitlement, after fighting such a terrible war that cost so much. National interest is not a static concept itís very fluid. It changes due to the circumstances of the time and it is never benevolent.
I didn't catch it earlier, but national interest doesn't necessarily have anything to do with survival. Hence, it can't be used to justify anywhere near what the latter can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Youíre essentially arguing that since they are no visible enemies at the time, Kira put on his uniform based on the idea that he wouldnít have to fight. Iím arguing that its naive to presume Kira would actually think he wouldnít have to fight when he put on his ZAFT uniform because militaries are deployed for a variety of reasons: national interest and humanitarian interest, or sometimes both.
What kind of national or humanitarian interest do you propose PLANT plans to mobilize ZAFT for? And would they legitimately require the use of combat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Lets say PLANT doesnít want to use their military for humanitarian purposes, the national interest still can be a whole number of things. There are so many factors involved that determine the survival of oneís people and many of them can be unpredictable. So, Kira as a soldier, when he puts on his uniform must be prepared to fight. As a soldier, you must always be prepared to fight.
As far as Kira is concerned, national interest alone does not justify the use of military force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Iím not arguing about the plot-devices of the CE world that allowed Athrun to join ZAFT again. In order for Destiny to succeed, Athrun had to be on ZAFTís side, no questions asked, and of course he had to defect again. And if itís so easy for ZAFT to accept him again, why isnít he back there after his second defection? He has his friends, friends in the military, and he still cares about the PLANTs? Is there some rule that you can only defect once and the second time youíre a traitor?
Whether you consider the events of Destiny to be plot devices is quite irrelevant. What they show is that it's hardly impossible (or even necessarily improbable) to join foreign militaries.

Athrun might well have more friends in Orb than in PLANT. After all, we don't know if he has any surviving family, and we don't know much of his friends either. I wouldn't even count Dearka and Yzak as his friends in this case. Besides, it's not a question of whether ZAFT wanted him or not, it's entirely a question of where he wants to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Iím arguing about how realistic this situation is, or whether Orb and ZAFT should be logically making this decision. Loyalty, dedication, and nationalism are the glue that holds militaries together, thatís why the worst thing you can do is commit treason. Citizenship is important for most countries, and I would assume ZAFT would, because itís the inherent standard used to measure loyalty and conviction to the fatherland. And itís honestly a very useful and truthful standard most of the time.
So how is this supposed to be a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Now, my assumption is that when Kira puts on a ZAFT uniform he knows he has to be loyal to ZAFT. He knows heís going to have to fight when ZAFT orders him to. He knows that as a member of an institution, he cannot solely serve his individual interests, he has to think about the collective whole. Kira has to adapt to ZAFT, not the other way around.
Until we know what the circumstances surrounding the uniform thing really means, it's too early to speculate on the specifics of it.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-21, 03:48   Link #300
KiraYamatoFan
No end to my talents
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Still, it doesn't tell me what use Kira can have within the ZAFT army, especially as an outsider and a citizen from Orb, when the Clyne Faction's military personnel seems to have already the required people and trusted names (look at those I mentioned already above) to ensure strength and power under Lacus' command.
__________________
GREEN AND GOLD STRONG. GLAZERS OUT!
KiraYamatoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.