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Old 2006-12-21, 04:03   Link #301
4Tran
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Why are we arguing issues of loyalty? If anything, Athrun's loyalty to something as fragile and unnerving as a 'country' should've been shaken and crumbled into pieces by the end of the 1st war. One major recurring theme of SEED in general is very apparent in Kira and Athrun, being as "what the hell do we want to do and should do!?", and in a way, Kira and Athrun still haven't really got a grasp of that.
You are quite correct. I think that Kira has a much better idea of the things that he has to do (or at least who he's supposed to listen to), but Athrun's still sort of confused. In this state, it's probably more natural for him to gravitate towards more basic things - the most important of which I propose to be his desire for a place to belong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
It might sound exagerrating, but I don's see Athrun and Kira as the type of people in the world to go "*insert country name* NO TAMENI".
Athrun used to be one of these people, but he sort of learned the folly of such a fanatical approach. It's highly unlikely that he'll revert back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
It's clear that in the end of GSD, Cagalli has learned that she cannot stay in her father's shadow. I believe it's half-clear that ORB will semi-abandon the whole NEUTRALITY NO MATTER WHAT stance Uzumi stood for and will take charge in ensuring that wars doesn't occur again, and in that manner, it can be presumely assumed that ORB for one would be strongly assosiated with other nations, especially the crumbled Earth Nations and PLANT if a sense of peace were to be maintained.
I think that this is a very good summation of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
Clearly one reason the 2nd war started SO easily was because not just of the terrorist attacks, but neither side came in proper terms with each other even throughout their 2 years of "peaceful co-existence".
I'd say that the pre-war situation was much worse than that. Both sides were rearming at a rapid pace, and it seemed as if they couldn't wait to renew their war again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan
How can Kira be sure that he will fight if he goes under ZAFT colors? What I mean is that Orb is already known after the second war that this little country will be aggressive enough if something goes wrong in either the ranks of the EA or the PLANTs, so some military work is already in the plans of Cagalli's administration. Nonetheless, Kira does a great job with the Orb armed forces as their space and air fighter commander, a general or sky marshall.
Kira is actually a very bad officer. In fact, he makes for just about the worst general in all of Gundam, and he's quite aware of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan
Why need an extra man like Kira in ZAFT with all the "artilery" (rather the personel) gathered from ZAFT under Terminal? I don't think ZAFT need more trusted big guns to "play the game" with a chip on the shoulder if any war starts in the future.
It's probably not a question of whether ZAFT feels that it needs Kira, it's more likely whether Kira and Lacus think that that's where he can do the most good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
ORB is but a small island. Maintaining peace is more than just flexing influence and a small elite group of armed military personnel, but rather having both sides having people of power who shares the same ideals of peace, and will work together in face of any conflict that threatens to spark into war and bloodshed. Cagalli helms ORB and probably most neutral nations who are allied to ORB. I can't say how she'll be involved wholely against Atlantic and Eurasia, but it's hardly a problem for a few years since even rebuilding trust and EA's political structure may take years, and probably supervised by "the people of peace".
The geopolitical situation is quite interesting, but it's sort of clear that Orb will have a leading role in Earth's affairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
Um... Athha doesn't rule Orb. There are five, yes five, ruling families. :/
Technically that's true, but for all practical purposes, Cagalli holds the reins of power in Orb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan
Still, it doesn't tell me what use Kira can have within the ZAFT army, especially as an outsider and a citizen from Orb, when the Clyne Faction's military personnel seems to have already the required people and trusted names (look at those I mentioned already above) to ensure strength and power under Lacus' command.
It's not really that hard for a high-ranking officer to gain power within an organization that's seen a great deal of upheaval. This is doubly true for someone who seems to have the favour of the political leadership.

Besides, unless we know the circumstances for Kira to don a ZAFT uniform, we won't really know what effect Lacus is trying to achieve with his presence. For example, his role may be just to act as a lure to flush out the Zala and Durandal extremists.
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Old 2006-12-21, 04:39   Link #302
KiraYamatoFan
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Kira may have been a bad general, but he was fine where he was when the Orb men didn't need to ask questions at all before following him compared to being a noname in ZAFT having to deal with all the old-timers in Lacus' cabinet who might not recognize his position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Besides, unless we know the circumstances for Kira to don a ZAFT uniform, we won't really know what effect Lacus is trying to achieve with his presence. For example, his role may be just to act as a lure to flush out the Zala and Durandal extremists.
Maybe. I just thought it could have been Yzak's job to do that since he's hanging around the military and political spheres in ZAFT for over 2 years already. In order to nail the remaining traitors, better use someone who knows better how the PLANTs' political machine works as well as the environment to deal with for while - the perfect deep throat.

What I meant is that having Kira getting that position just like that in front of other PLANTs' Patriots might put Lacus in a very uncomfortable political situation right from the start.
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Old 2006-12-21, 07:52   Link #303
Naive
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I didn't address that argument because I didn't think it was very important. Orb's military doesn't operate like most modern militaries do. Instead, it seems to rely a fair bit on nepotism. Besides, Cagalli understands Athrun about as well as anyone else in the world with the exceptions of Kira and Lacus, so wouldn't she be one of the best judges of how much to trust him (this even ignores the fact that she's already trusted him with her life)?

Finally, Athrun's position is still unknown. We have nothing to show that he's going to lead Orb's fleets. For all we know, he might be put in charge of Assault Haro production, or something like that.

If you look at Athrun's uniform from the new SE selections, it is the same as the one Kira wore at the end of Destiny. That of course doesn't mean that he's taken Kira's position, just like Kira wearing a ZAFT uniform doesn't mean he's a bonafide ZAFTie. But since our little debate is based on images in the first place, and their implications, let's just work with what we have.

Cagalli understands Athrun? Examples please? After all, I thought there were some pretty big misunderstandings between them during the second war.

So what if the Orb military operates on nepotism? That doesn't mean Cagalli should ignore his past history and his lack of loyalty. So what if he semi-rectified it after his second defection, it still doesn't erase his history. Just like when Kira joins ZAFT, it doesn't erase his history of conflict with them, no matter how much Lacus approves of him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Examining the reasoning behind an argument is far superior to just looking at internet lists.
Obviously, but examining standard uses of language is also important, which was my point. "Fighting for Peace" that term is considered an oxymoron by at least a substantial amount of people. So when I claimed "Fighting for Peace" was an oxymoron, I think it was a pretty legitimate statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Not quite. Escalation, by definition, is to increase the amount of violence in a conflict. Historically, an outside force trying to keep a local conflict from escalating tends to have the opposite effect.
But when I used those parameters, I was also explicitly referring to crushing rebellions/uprisings, not a third party interference. Crushing terrorist operations, not a third party interference if they pose a national security threat to your country.

Besides, Kira and co have a history of interfering in other people's battles to promote peace. Yes, sometimes it failed, but when it really counted, such as preventing the deaths of millions of people, it magically worked. Hmm...talk about precedents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
That's why I included intelligence apparatuses as well. If any part of the military wanted to attempt a coup, then there should be evidence of their plans.
But, you're automatically assuming that just because there's an intelligence agency, it automatically means the potential coup will be found out. That's hardly the case, intelligence is fallible. The U.S., one of the arguably the most sophisticated intelligence agencies in the world, has made decisions on faulty intelligence or failed to pick up intelligence at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Again, that proves my point. The military is quite ineffective at preventing such activity. If PLANT had been running things properly, their intelligence should have found out about the extremists earlier, and if they needed the help, called ZAFT in before the Zala supporters started their attack. I haven't tried to claim that militaries are completely incapable of helping with domestic issues, but the fact is that other agencies are far better suited as the primary solution for dealing with such issues.
How does it prove your point? Just because ZAFT failed, doesn't mean they weren't the appropriate agency to handle it, especially because they were called in last minute. How can we be sure that PLANT wasn't running things properly? Where did it ever say that? No agency is perfect, no nation has perfect intelligence. You're also conveniently forgetting that ZAFT probably saved thousands of lives.

So you admit that the military can help with domestic issues? Well, that was my point as well, good we're agreed: Kira can possibly be deployed to stop a fringe group, he has to be prepared for that possibility when he joins ZAFT, because nothing is guaranteed. As a soldier, he has to constantly be prepared to fight because nothing is guaranteed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
In that case, it would be a war.
Yes, so Kira would have to fight. However you claim that ZAFT wouldn't encounter something like this, so Kira wouldn't have to fight. How can you be so sure? My underlying point is that as a soldier you have to be prepared to fight, regardless of the current international situation, otherwise you become complacent. To presume that just because you've defeated all visible enemies, your military organization is not likely to fight is arrogant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I've never claimed anything about ZAFT's deployment. I've been strictly talking about how the kind of fighting ZAFT is likely to be involved in.
And that's what I'm talking about as well when I say deployment, deployment as for a reason for fighting. Fighting doesn't necessarily mean official war, state versus state, but can actually fall under an umbrella of situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
While taking the resources of Eastern Europe helped the Soviet Union, it was hardly necessary for its survival.
How can you determine that? What evidence do you have? Maybe your definition of survival is not the same as a nation-state's definition. Not only was occupation of Eastern Europe important for security purposes, as providing a buffer against Western Europe, the resources helped to strengthen the economy of the State. That, from a state's perspective, constitutes survival. It helped arm them, which is necessary for survival. It helped feed the people, which is necessary for survival. It helped them rebuild, which is necessary for survival.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I didn't catch it earlier, but national interest doesn't necessarily have anything to do with survival. Hence, it can't be used to justify anywhere near what the latter can.
National interest is exactly about survival as a state, at least from the realist strand of IR theory. It's about building up your military, for security purposes, and gaining resources, What other purpose would national interest serve if not survival as a state? You see from a realist perspective the world is always unpredictable, so you have to keep your military well-armed and posed to fight. It doesn't matter if you're a hegemon, in fact if you're a hegemon you need to keep your military extra-prepared to fight, because you don't want to lose your power.

What would survival mean then? It's very difficult to distinguish the national interest from survival, because for a lot of politicians those two are the same. Do you mean survival as in a state is being threatened by an external force? But that's not smart politics if you're a state, there are so many other ways to fail. States aren't benevolent, when they fight for survival, they don't passively wait for an emergency situation, they actively make sure their states don't ever get into that situation in the first place. Itís not pretty, and its extremely selfish, but this is the practical way states work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
What kind of national or humanitarian interest do you propose PLANT plans to mobilize ZAFT for? And would they legitimately require the use of combat?
Just because there is temporary peace, meaning the principal actors, nation- states have been defeated and have a peace treaty, doesn't mean there is world peace.
In fact, most of the mass killing that goes on today occurs in-between state boundaries: Civil war, ethnic cleansing, genocide...etc. And in the CE universe, it doesn't need to be Natural versus Coordinator, there are many other reasons for human beings to fight. When there are situations so extreme, states may choose to intervene to stop killing because of a collective understanding of universal human rights.

Nation-states may act selfishly, but they also at the same time, can act in a humanitarian manner, because it's expected and it provides political capital on the world stage. Anyway, I can go through the pros and cons of humanitarian intervention, and discuss its complexity, throw in a few tests...but that's not what I was trying to explain.

I'm just trying to simply say that militaries don't solely need to fight for the survival of the state, but depending on the politics of the nations, there are other reasons to use the military as well. Of course its an extreme situation, but why should it be impossible? I mean look at the U.S., it has fought wars for both national interest and humanitarian interest. It's committed human right violations in other states yet it tries to spread the concept of universal human rights. Humanitarian intervention is becoming more and more an accepted norm, meaning despite the blatant failures (Somalia, Yugoslavia, Iraq..) it's not inherently a bad move, its just the way countries have attempted humanitarian intervention, that is the problem. States, international lawyers, IR scholars, policymakers, have been developing criteria for using this, meaning its not going to go away any time soon and is getting more accepted. Again, it was just an example of a possible way militaries can be used to fight, but not something we would consider traditional war.

In fact, during times of peace, states are more likely to use their military for humanitarian interest than any other time.

Though, I guess you could make the claim that Lacus was practicing something close to humanitarian intervention when her faction was trying to defeat both ZAFT and EA. Using military force to stop genocide, intervening in a war as a third party to stop killing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
As far as Kira is concerned, national interest alone does not justify the use of military force.
Then he needs to remove his uniform as soon as possible. National interest and the military go hand-in-hand. States aren't benevolent, they hardly use military force for "pure" reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Whether you consider the events of Destiny to be plot devices is quite irrelevant. What they show is that it's hardly impossible (or even necessarily improbable) to join foreign militaries.
Well, since I was technically talking about the Athrun rejoining ZAFT plot-device, he wasn't joining a foreign military since he was probably still a PLANT citizen, plus he had a history of record with them. And the plot-device I was referring to wasn't his nationality, because that doesn't even make sense in the context, but the fact that he already betrayed ZAFT once, yet he was welcomed back with open arms. So your comment is irrelevant. After all, there was no Athrun Zala of Orb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Athrun might well have more friends in Orb than in PLANT. After all, we don't know if he has any surviving family, and we don't know much of his friends either. I wouldn't even count Dearka and Yzak as his friends in this case. Besides, it's not a question of whether ZAFT wanted him or not, it's entirely a question of where he wants to go.
Well why would he want to stay in Orb? He only has Cagalli, you said he didn't belong in Orb in the first place? Kira and Lacus are in ZAFT. The rest of the Minerva crew, who he seems to keep in contact with are in ZAFT. Shinn is in ZAFT, and by all accounts he wanted to be his mentor, and I think Kira might take his place at this point. If offered another chance, I'm sure Lacus could pull some strings, it's pretty easy to do. After all it's not like he's not welcome at the PLANTs, he could very well be put into service again.

And if you really think about it, it wasn't that ZAFT wasn't good for him, it was more like the leadership in ZAFT wasn't good for him. Otherwise you can make the same argument that ZAFT isn't good for Shinn, because that kid was manipulated a lot more than Athrun was. But shouldn't it be different with new leadership, Lacus, and loads of reform coming his way? So maybe he would have a place to belong in this ZAFT.

But hey, as you said, it's his choice not to return, can't argue with that, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
So how is this supposed to be a problem?
How is it not supposed to be a problem from a logical standpoint? If militaries are built on loyalty to the nation, we can't have people switching and abandoning militaries so easily. Citizenship is a requirement in most countries for a reason, because it's used as a measure of loyalty, because citizenship and nationalism go hand-in-hand. Now, being able to fight for your own conviction, being able to switch militaries because you've found a higher cause, or because your girlfriend is in charge, it doesn't make sense. Ideally, it would be great if everyone could fight for their own personal conviction, but in order for a military to run, there needs to be an overarching ideal that ties the members to the nation. Bringing someone into your military who has fought against your military and brought them down, and placing them in a high position when they have very little military experience, would go against the very foundation a military is built upon.

Now, if the ZAFT military doesn't run on loyalty to the nation, what does it run on? What provides the motivation for these people to fight? From a strategic standpoint, as a politician, you have to have your military be a cohesive group ready to sacrifice their lives. It's ruthless, but necessary, and for that you need them to be nationalistic and loyal. They don't need a Kira who will decide that he can't fight for a ZAFT that invades another country for resources because according to his standards, that doesn't constitute survival. They need someone who believes in their nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Until we know what the circumstances surrounding the uniform thing really means, it's too early to speculate on the specifics of it.
Too late for that when you stated that Kira would be joining a ZAFT that wouldn't be expected to fight.

Look, Iím not saying the PLANTs are some trigger-happy nation, Iím saying that in order to protect their interests, and of course this means their people, states have to take into account a whole lot of things. States canít always act in a benevolent manner to other states, sometimes they have to consider whatís important to their national interest. And a smart state wouldnít be trigger-happy, because nobody wants to deploy their military, and they would surely exhaust all possible diplomatic resources. However, there are cases when the military needs to be used, and soldiers should always be expected to fight when called upon. So all Iím saying is that Kira has to understand this as a soldier he should be ready to fight for ZAFT at anytime, personal convictions aside.
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Old 2006-12-21, 16:37   Link #304
White_Harpy
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Yoshino, Nara prefecture, Japan
Age: 27
Kira Yamato... anagramize that!

Hmmm... Kira as a whitecoat, huh? I understand completely... that infallability of his would serve cryptic villainy so much better than it would heroism... Or maybe he'll be a good whitecoat with a cryptic demeanor... Either way, time for him to bleach his hair and don that notorious white demi-mask... I can see it now

< Athrun walks in on Kira who is facing the other direction >

Athrun: Hey Kira, how's it going?

Kira: fu fu fu... hm hm hm hm ha ha...

Athrun: Uh... Kira, are you... Um

< Kira turns toward Athrun with his white coat on, but is currently fashioning a Creuset-esque demi-mask >

Kira: Hey... what d'ya think of this?

Athrun: Ummm... I... what are you doing?

Kira: I've figured that since Rau le Creuset's death, this series has been lacking the vital character role of the cold, cryptic, calculating, conniving, callous villain... I figure than since I have the invaluable technique of ultimate infallibility, I can use it to revise the ways of humanity; I can be Rau 2.0

Athrun: Kira, this is entirely against everything you stand for, and of the people I know who shows such tendencies, you are not among them... You can wear the white coat, even the mask if you want, just do like you always do and be the good guy!

Kira: but I've even been practicing my evil laugh, see? *ahem* hee hee hee hee hee... wait, that wasn't it... <flips through "Nihilistic facade for dummies"> Oh yeah, *ahem* AAH HA HA HA HUH HA HA HA!

Athrun:

But seriously, If Kira is gonna be a Zaft whitecoat ace, and the series is porting in mobile suits from other gundam universes, they need to bring in the sazabi, and if they're not gonna let Rau fly it, Then it might as well be whitecoat Kira...
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Old 2006-12-21, 17:45   Link #305
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan
Kira may have been a bad general, but he was fine where he was when the Orb men didn't need to ask questions at all before following him compared to being a noname in ZAFT having to deal with all the old-timers in Lacus' cabinet who might not recognize his position.
If the "old-timers" are unwilling to obey Kira, then it may well provide Lacus an excuse for getting rid of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan
Maybe. I just thought it could have been Yzak's job to do that since he's hanging around the military and political spheres in ZAFT for over 2 years already. In order to nail the remaining traitors, better use someone who knows better how the PLANTs' political machine works as well as the environment to deal with for while - the perfect deep throat.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and introducing new or unusual elements into a situation is certain to stir things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
If you look at Athrun's uniform from the new SE selections, it is the same as the one Kira wore at the end of Destiny. That of course doesn't mean that he's taken Kira's position, just like Kira wearing a ZAFT uniform doesn't mean he's a bonafide ZAFTie. But since our little debate is based on images in the first place, and their implications, let's just work with what we have.
Athrun's uniform only indicates his rank while I'm arguing that we know nothing about his position. An officer at any given rank can be assigned one of a number of different positions - only a few of these positions are field commands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Cagalli understands Athrun? Examples please? After all, I thought there were some pretty big misunderstandings between them during the second war.

So what if the Orb military operates on nepotism? That doesn't mean Cagalli should ignore his past history and his lack of loyalty. So what if he semi-rectified it after his second defection, it still doesn't erase his history. Just like when Kira joins ZAFT, it doesn't erase his history of conflict with them, no matter how much Lacus approves of him.
Misunderstandings don't necessarily mean that Cagalli can't trust Athrun, which is all that's really important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Obviously, but examining standard uses of language is also important, which was my point. "Fighting for Peace" that term is considered an oxymoron by at least a substantial amount of people. So when I claimed "Fighting for Peace" was an oxymoron, I think it was a pretty legitimate statement.
The popularity of an argument contributes nothing towards making it more valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But when I used those parameters, I was also explicitly referring to crushing rebellions/uprisings, not a third party interference. Crushing terrorist operations, not a third party interference if they pose a national security threat to your country.
This line of argumentation came up when you brought up the topic of humanitarian intervention. I don't believe that PLANT has any pressing need to crush any rebellions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
But, you're automatically assuming that just because there's an intelligence agency, it automatically means the potential coup will be found out. That's hardly the case, intelligence is fallible. The U.S., one of the arguably the most sophisticated intelligence agencies in the world, has made decisions on faulty intelligence or failed to pick up intelligence at all.
That was hardly my position. By no means did I suggest that using the proper organization to do its job would be foolproof at it. I was just pointing out that it's a much better idea than using an organization to do a task it's unsuited for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
How does it prove your point? Just because ZAFT failed, doesn't mean they weren't the appropriate agency to handle it, especially because they were called in last minute. How can we be sure that PLANT wasn't running things properly? Where did it ever say that? No agency is perfect, no nation has perfect intelligence. You're also conveniently forgetting that ZAFT probably saved thousands of lives.
Yzak's squad was sent in inappropriately. They responded to the situation as if it were a natural disaster, and most of their troops went in unarmed. If PLANT's intelligence services were doing a proper job, then they would have at least been on the lookout for hostiles. That they managed to not totally screw it up doesn't necessarily mean that they did a good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
So you admit that the military can help with domestic issues? Well, that was my point as well, good we're agreed: Kira can possibly be deployed to stop a fringe group, he has to be prepared for that possibility when he joins ZAFT, because nothing is guaranteed. As a soldier, he has to constantly be prepared to fight because nothing is guaranteed.
What do you mean by admit? I've always maintained that the military was bad at addressing problems outside of its purview, not that it completely incapable of doing so.

I repeat: what fringe group does PLANT have to stop? I'm not particularly interested in if there may be the slightest chance that ZAFT may have to fight something, I'm interested in the likelihood of having to do so, and the justifications for such action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Yes, so Kira would have to fight. However you claim that ZAFT wouldn't encounter something like this, so Kira wouldn't have to fight. How can you be so sure?
If there were a serious enough issue that would lead to a war of survival, then there should be indications of it. For some reason, you seem to think that my position is that there isn't any chance for ZAFT to be involved in a conflict. This has never been my argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
And that's what I'm talking about as well when I say deployment, deployment as for a reason for fighting. Fighting doesn't necessarily mean official war, state versus state, but can actually fall under an umbrella of situations.
Deployment as a reason for fighting? How does that work? I've precisely been talking about fighting as in state versus state combat. All combat is either within one's borders, in which case other, non-military, agencies are more appropriate, or outside of one's borders, in which case it involves acts of war against another nation. The only exceptions to this are either civil wars or military expeditions, neither of which are particularly likely for PLANT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
How can you determine that?
Survival is about acting to prevent the collapse of one's nation-state. If the main purpose for fighting is not for this stake, then it isn't exactly about survival anymore, is it? Bringing up buffer zones and the like are quite irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
What evidence do you have?
You have the burden of proof backwards. If you want to show that taking the resources of Eastern Europe was vital for the survival of the Soviet Union, then the onus is upon you to show evidence for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Just because there is temporary peace, meaning the principal actors, nation- states have been defeated and have a peace treaty, doesn't mean there is world peace.
I haven't said anything about world peace - I want to know specifically what PLANT is planning to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Though, I guess you could make the claim that Lacus was practicing something close to humanitarian intervention when her faction was trying to defeat both ZAFT and EA. Using military force to stop genocide, intervening in a war as a third party to stop killing.
That's only true if you stretch the definition of "humanitarian intervention". Lacus is a third party only if you think that there can be two sides in a conflict. Otherwise, she's just another belligerent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Then he needs to remove his uniform as soon as possible.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Well, since I was technically talking about the Athrun rejoining ZAFT plot-device, he wasn't joining a foreign military since he was probably still a PLANT citizen, plus he had a history of record with them. And the plot-device I was referring to wasn't his nationality, because that doesn't even make sense in the context, but the fact that he already betrayed ZAFT once, yet he was welcomed back with open arms. So your comment is irrelevant. After all, there was no Athrun Zala of Orb.
Technically, Athrun would count as an Orb resident, so my associating him with joining a foreign military isn't entirely inaccurate. However, I was mistaken that you were trying to argue about that aspect of the story, so my comment isn't particularly meaningful either. Having said that, claiming that that element is a mere plot device seems sort of silly since Durandal had plenty of reasons to welcome Athrun back to the fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
How is it not supposed to be a problem from a logical standpoint? If militaries are built on loyalty to the nation, we can't have people switching and abandoning militaries so easily.
This is only the case because nations deem it to be. If the leaders of a nation are willing to grant an exception, then it's a moot issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Too late for that when you stated that Kira would be joining a ZAFT that wouldn't be expected to fight.
That's quite incorrect. I merely pointed out how things would look from Kira's point of view, no more, no less.


Oh, and White_Harpy, Kira shouldn't be the villain; Lacus would be a much better choice.
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Old 2006-12-21, 21:11   Link #306
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Oh, and White_Harpy, Kira shouldn't be the villain; Lacus would be a much better choice.
It's not exactly an either/or situation!

<Lacus> Kira, how do I look in this black cloak and cowl?
<Kira> *heavy breathing* Ah, hm, good, my Master.
<Lacus> Mou, you always say that. And how goes the construction of the Death Haro?
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Old 2006-12-21, 21:28   Link #307
Naive
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
Survival is about acting to prevent the collapse of one's nation-state. If the main purpose for fighting is not for this stake, then it isn't exactly about survival anymore, is it?

Instead of arguing about every technical sentence, because weíre getting lost in the details and not addressing some of the key issues, Iíd rather just give you a rationale of where Iím coming from regarding state behavior and international politics. Iím getting sick of arguing this. I'm sure others are getting sick of us arguing this. I think itís clear that we view international politics in a different light, and I donít think weíre ever going to change each otherís minds. Now, you can feel free to contest every following sentence, I canít prevent you from doing that, but I feel that Iíve made my point, and I think I'm done. Hopefully, this will answer your questions.

Since we donít agree on what constitutes a stateís survival, all of our other arguments regarding Kira and his decision to join ZAFT, and the likelihood of ZAFT engaging in warfare will disagree. It doesnít mean youíre wrong and Iím right, it means both of us are using different political lenses to examine state behavior. For me, politics is all about unpredictability, and as a nation you have to be ready to deploy your military for several reasons. My underlying point was never that Kira will automatically have to fight for ZAFT, but when joining ZAFT, as a soldier, he has to be prepared to fight for ZAFT, no matter what the reason. Youíre assuming that Kira when he joined ZAFT, his mode of mind was one that saw no potential enemies in the future and assumed that PLANT wouldnít have any other interests besides your definition of ďsurvivalĒ, so the likelihood of him engaging in battle was small, and this played a decision in him joining ZAFT. I can see where youíre coming from but I can disagree.

I disagree with the statement because again, from my perspective, when you join a military you always have to be prepared to fight no matter what the international situation looks like. When you put on that uniform, youíre serving that specific nation, and you have to take into account that you might be deployed for a variety of reasons other than official war. Furthermore, as a soldier, you must be prepared to fight for your nation when they engage in battle for their national interest, which could be official war. Nations address the concept of state survival in a variety of different ways. Sure survival can be manipulated to justify the national interest, but politicians often believe that theyíre fighting for the survival of the state. Itís very subjective and there is hardly a right answer. Preventing the collapse of oneís nation-state, your definition of survival, can be a variety of things and it depends on the type of government in charge, the politicians, and the circumstances. I think states themselves are the only ones with the authority to define survival, because itís not a universal definition.

As to the likelihood of ZAFTís deployment, again thereís always unpredictability. Intelligence can fail, catastrophes can happen, a fragile peace can be disturbedÖthere are variety of reasons for ZAFT to be deployed in the immediate future. When putting on his uniform Kira has to be ready for these situations, especially because youíre exiting a tumultuous period. Maybe none of them are visible, as you said and Iíve agreed with that, but a soldier must be prepared for all sorts of possibilities. A soldierís psychology must be one of preparedness always, otherwise they get complacent. Now, maybe this isnít the answer youíre looking for, but based on what I know about international relations, thatís the most fitting answer based on past events.

This analogy isnít perfect, but I hope it illustrates a point. After the Cold War, the United States had ďwonĒ it. They emerged as the supreme superpower. There were no possible enemies to fight, after all the Soviet Union had collapsed. There were no immediate threats in the future, the major opposition was basically destroyed. The Soviet Union and the United States were working together for better diplomatic relations. The Cold War officially ended in December 1989. Now, did anyone predict that the United States would principally participate in the Gulf War the next year? As a soldier planning to join the military, right after the CW, would you think the United States would want to be involved in more conflict after a period of intense cold and hot war? Was there a likelihood, a possibility? After all, Iraq and the U.S. were buddies during the CW.

Furthermore, the Gulf War had to do with international peace and security. Not only protecting Kuwait from Iraqi aggression, but also protecting Saudi Arabia, a strategic location, but of course having nothing to do with U.S. survival as a nation-state under your definition. As a soldier you canít just quit because you didnít expect the unexpected. Politics are dirty, states act for a variety of reasons besides ďsurvivalĒ under your definition. Did anyone predict that the United States was going to send troops to Somalia? To Kosovo? Now, maybe it was a mistake to do so in hindsight, but politicians make the best decisions they can under those particular circumstances. And politicians also donít make the best decision they can based on complete rationality. They often have to take into account a variety of constraints including public opinion, the media, political opponents, and the possibility of reelection. Also, a person of particular party may feel pressure to act in a certain way. It also depends on the structure of the political system in that domestic country and who exactly has a voice.

The point is that unpredictability is always a part of the game. Just because there arenít any traditional visible enemies, doesnít mean that new enemies cannot be created by a slight change in foreign policy. Again, Iraq was the U.S.ís buddy during the CW, the US supplied weapons to fight against the Soviet-friendly Iranians, but just as the CW is about to endÖ.Iraq ďbecameĒ the abuser of human rights and a state aggressor. Kira needs to understand this as a soldier that international relations change constantly, so there is always the possibility of fighting when you join the military, and I would hope that was the primary thing in his mind when he joined ZAFT.

So, I canít point you to any concrete visible enemies in the CE world, but that doesnít mean they arenít or there wonít be. International Relations, alliances, friendships, and enemies are always shifting. Sometimes politicians can control it, but a lot of the times, itís certain circumstances, events, and of course the flow of history.

So, Iím ready to see who Kiraís next enemy will be in the movie. Will it be:
A. Fringe groups/terrorists/the usual genocidaires
B. Power-corrupted Lacus
C. Earth Alliance
D. A vigilante Shinn/Athrun
E. ZAFT- because it just has to happen.
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Old 2006-12-21, 23:24   Link #308
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Naive View Post
The point is that unpredictability is always a part of the game. Just because there arenít any traditional visible enemies, doesnít mean that new enemies cannot be created by a slight change in foreign policy. Again, Iraq was the U.S.ís buddy during the CW, the US supplied weapons to fight against the Soviet-friendly Iranians, but just as the CW is about to endÖ.Iraq ďbecameĒ the abuser of human rights and a state aggressor. Kira needs to understand this as a soldier that international relations change constantly, so there is always the possibility of fighting when you join the military, and I would hope that was the primary thing in his mind when he joined ZAFT.

So, I canít point you to any concrete visible enemies in the CE world, but that doesnít mean they arenít or there wonít be. International Relations, alliances, friendships, and enemies are always shifting. Sometimes politicians can control it, but a lot of the times, itís certain circumstances, events, and of course the flow of history.
But Kira doesn't need to worry about anything like that.
He is there for Lacus, and he will fight to defend Lacus if need be. Lacus is the brain, Kira is the brawn.

And the whole buisness of his promotion isn't anything more than making sure Kira can't be ordered around by anyone but those personally closest to him; Otherwise the odd white-coat would be able to tell him what to do.

You need to remember, Fukuda doesn't actually plan very far as far as character interactions are concerned. There is likely no real deep meaning for Kira's Zaft rank other than because Lacus likes to see her man in white.
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Old 2006-12-21, 23:42   Link #309
Naive
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Brilliant answer. Yup, silly of me to expect that Kira could think for himself...and he's one of my favorite characters too.

I guess I had a small hope that he had some sense of agency somewhere, but you're probably correct, he probably just thought only of Lacus when joining ZAFT.

Well that certainly was a waste of time...
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Old 2006-12-21, 23:50   Link #310
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
It's not exactly an either/or situation!
But I like the idea of Kira as Lacus' unwitting puppet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
You’re assuming that Kira when he joined ZAFT, his mode of mind was one that saw no potential enemies in the future and assumed that PLANT wouldn’t have any other interests besides your definition of “survival”, so the likelihood of him engaging in battle was small, and this played a decision in him joining ZAFT. I can see where you’re coming from but I can disagree.
Your assessment of my position is correct. I would modify it to state, "no other reason for combat besides survival". By the way, it's not my definition of survival at all; it should be the one that is commonly held. I would also add that in no way did I claim that ZAFT would not be deployed in another war or conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
I disagree with the statement because again, from my perspective, when you join a military you always have to be prepared to fight no matter what the international situation looks like.
I think that you're quite mistaken in assuming that soldiers have to fight for their military no matter the circumstances. Historically, this has proven to be far from the case, especially for higher ranking officers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
I think states themselves are the only ones with the authority to define survival, because it’s not a universal definition.
Nation-states are notoriously selfish in ascribing ethical motives to their own actions. Why should they be allowed to be their own arbiters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
This analogy isn’t perfect, but I hope it illustrates a point.
Unfortunately your analogy isn't even close. The U.S. had a policy of intervening in conflicts throughout the world for decades before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Later interventions were simply a continuation of that same policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Now, did anyone predict that the United States would principally participate in the Gulf War the next year?
Yes; the U.S. and Iraq were on a collision course. The only real question was going to be when conflict, subvert or overt, would break out. The modern politics part of this debate is moving very much off-topic. I suggest that you take it to PMs if you want to continue this part of the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
And the whole buisness of his promotion isn't anything more than making sure Kira can't be ordered around by anyone but those personally closest to him; Otherwise the odd white-coat would be able to tell him what to do.
Agreed. Kira's rank isn't going to be for military reasons at all. He makes for a very bad soldier at best, and he'd make for an absolutely abysmal officer.
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Old 2006-12-22, 00:57   Link #311
Naive
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
I suggest that you take it to PMs if you want to continue this part of the debate.
I told you I'm done, I'm sure I could validly and easily continue the argument, but it's clear we're just wasting each other's time at this point.

Besides, I think I've accepted the Kira joins ZAFT simply for Lacus argument, after all why should he have to think so hard about these decisions.
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Old 2006-12-22, 01:59   Link #312
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Naive View Post
Brilliant answer. Yup, silly of me to expect that Kira could think for himself...and he's one of my favorite characters too.

I guess I had a small hope that he had some sense of agency somewhere, but you're probably correct, he probably just thought only of Lacus when joining ZAFT.

Well that certainly was a waste of time...
Of course Kira can think for himself... But what makes you think Kira would leave Lacus out of any equation?

Never-mind that Lacus Clyne is the most influential person in Zaft right now, never-mind that she had always been trustworthy and had the best interests of his friends in mind, above all he loves her.

Is there ANY reason why Kira would feel the need to do things by himself, when Lacus is always there to support him? Kira might be a one-man army, but that doesn't make him a loner. All your assumptions have one fundamental error; that somehow Kira want to avoid Lacus as much as possible. That is just illogical.
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Old 2006-12-22, 02:10   Link #313
Nightengale
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So... Just because Kira is not a solitary man living in his own world fighting for his own personal ideals that is not related to any other character, he's a bad character? No offence to anyone, but apparently it seems that very few people are trying to find a rational middle ground with Kira. It's either he becomes Lacus Drone #4685604 or he is his own man in his own world. LOL.

Kira is not a fundamental character of his own traits that is stemmed out of him, himself and Kira. Take note that Kira as a soldier, has never acknowledged that the path and enemies he is fighting against is wrong, and is always personally burdened by right and wrongs of things, because he and Athrun made mistakes in the past. He however knows that choosing to NOT DO ANYTHING is wrong, especially when he has the power and he has seen enough of people close to him to know who he can have faith in, without being blinded. If he was blindly loyal, he wouldn't had bitchowned Cagalli after kidnapping her. He can place his faith to others who know what they want to do, because he can believe in them. That's pretty much all that matters to Kira.
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Old 2006-12-22, 03:30   Link #314
wingdarkness
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Well as usual I have to materialize for such matters...

@Night - The problem with your core analysis is that Kira 2.0 (The Kira of GSD) isn't the same Kira (fundamentally ignoring the 2 year gap in time that would make a natural change evident) and as for him b!tching at Cagali perhaps it would have worked out better had he had the same mindset about kidnapping her in the first place and what that would spawn (Perhaps he should have b!tched himself first)...But we all knew he had a "weird feeling" (whatever the hell that is) and supported (or guided or manipulated or whatever) by Lacus he went about his goal...

His GF, a supposed fugitive from ZAFT, with political powers that would make Ceaser blush gets shot at and his sister was about to marry somebody other than his BFF which kinda ticked him off and that (along with some out of the air feeling) was the root of him getting involved in the fight...His first choice was indeed NOT TO DO ANYTHING...remember he was all too reserved to do whatever Waltfeld or Lacus wanted to do (If that meant hiding out on the Plants in another cabin with another birch-wood rocking chair out front for him to sway in)...


So he's not a bad character because he's blindly loyal or loyal to a fault, he's bad because he was used like a 2 dollar whore to pimp the series and the one thing that could have made that acceptable was if he showed anytype of templet for his character change other than honestly resembeling a drone who is used by Lacus, the writer, or the creator for omniscience or omnipotence at various points of the tale...A character that 90% out of 100% IMO doesn't relate rationally or progressively with the character from the series prior...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naive
Brilliant answer. Yup, silly of me to expect that Kira could think for himself...and he's one of my favorite characters too.

I guess I had a small hope that he had some sense of agency somewhere, but you're probably correct, he probably just thought only of Lacus when joining ZAFT.

Well that certainly was a waste of time...
Your POV is well recieved atleast by wingdarkness who sees alot of what you see...While Kira is one of my favorite characters in SEED that same character does not appear in GSD (which garners me to scratch my head at Kira lovers from SEED), so Kira as a whole has become somewhat lost to me and has gained my ire along with most of Team Clyne...Unfortunatley his character was progressed so poorly mentally and rationally whenever he does seem to think on his own it's immediatley trumped by the pre-destiny of his side of the story which glorifies, betrays, and uses him as a plot enabler for the lowest common denominator...So your not to far off by acknowledging this as a waste of time because the people who defend this percieved triteness simply see the irrational nature of Kira's supposed new defection as having depth with his connection to Lacus, while those who see Lacus' real-life chessmoves as plot-insanity at best can only muster the fruits of what we've seen...which is Kira able to do what he needs and pleases as the plot dictates with no depth behind it as tangible as Lacus' overwhelming prowess...
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Old 2006-12-27, 00:26   Link #315
neovu79
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
btw, nobody seemed to comment on Kira's colouring on his uniform. Seems to be the same as Yzak's:

who's rank is listed as "commander" AFAIK.

Except Kira has a bit of green on his belt. It's possible it's an "honourary" position. If he's permanently with ZAFT, he's gone several ranks down since leaving Orb...


Talia's is like this:
Huh... Never realized the difference in ZAFT uniforms. Where have I been when watching SEED....? Ooooooo, I better not open that door, lol.
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Old 2006-12-27, 00:30   Link #316
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
As it stands, it seems that having extra yellow linings means that the commander also serves as a MS pilot rather than just a ship commander. Yzak and Raww had those uniforms, while Talia and the Operation Shoot Down Eternal commander wore the same uniform. I highly doubt that fat old man is a MS pilot.

Though the frontal yellow/red badge at the pocket area is beyond me. Talia is different, but all other commanders seem to have the same Yzak/Raww red/yellow/red pattern.

Knowing Kira, I wouldn't be surprised if he could hack ZAFT's database and create a false white-coat identity for a short while, but I don't see how that would contribute to the story at it's particular point. It's not like he can infiltrate Minerva either. And even if Kira pilots some ZAKU or GOUF, him losing in those MS is more degrading than him losing in Strike.
Or it could represent a higher position or responsibility all together. Since Kira was an Admiral in Orb, this difference in white uniform may represent ZAFT's milita equivilant.
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Old 2006-12-27, 00:57   Link #317
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Don't forget that ZAFT doesn't have a rank infastructure like Orb and the Earth Forces do. So he might be in a position of authority, like a field commander (Yzak) or ship captain (Talia), but he's not going to be "General" of a ZAFT fleet or anything. Best he can do is a white uniform with connections to ZAFT leadership which basically lets him do whatever he wants, like Le Creuset.
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Old 2006-12-27, 04:44   Link #318
mikyu
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... how would a general in zaft look like?
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Old 2006-12-27, 12:34   Link #319
neovu79
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... how would a general in zaft look like?
Wouldn't quite know. ZAFT uses a militia infrastructure not "regular military", so they don't use ranks to recognize their military leaders. Instead they use titles and variant uniforms.
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Old 2006-12-27, 15:29   Link #320
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Basically, ZAFT's military is mainly run by their military space station (that hollowed out, cylindrical colony thing shown a lot during the series), or the Council can give executive orders. So basically the closest thing to a General ZAFT has is like when Gilbert was riding shotgun on the Minerva at Heaven's Base.
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