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Old 2006-08-21, 16:19   Link #101
Obi-Wan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
Irregardless
"Irregardless" isn't a word. Might want to ask SUNY Buffalo for a refund there, pal.
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Old 2006-08-21, 16:20   Link #102
Deacon Blues
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
2. Running away from the situation? Most people assumed that there was no situation to begin with. A peace treaty was signed between Fed and ZAFT, Patrick Zala put down, PLANT ruled by more peaceful pro-Clyne party. Ok, things returned to normal and in peace, what more is there to ask?
"Working with children." Yeah... that's normal for her. If she wasn't hiding out, then her orphanage wouldn't have a freaking sealed bunker for her to fall back into. There is no Federation in SEED, wrong series sir. If they were 'pro-Clyne' as they said they were, why wouldn't the contact his daughter, the better spokes person to be true to his ideas? See, this is why Dullindal created the fake Lacus. Had he of asked Lacus herself, I'm sure she would have been willing to help to an extent.

Quote:
3. Blame Dully for everything, he made a risky gamble that failed miserably, and awakened the Goddess that eventually put him into the deepest bowels of hell. His fault, entirely.

- Tak
Dullindal did absolutely nothing wrong, aside from the Destiny Plan. And if you people are still hung up on him being the one that sent in the ZAFT commando team, you need to go watch the show again for the clues.

If Lacus assumes the position of power, everyone will sway over her, then you'll have that group that comes out of the shadows and says Lacus is manipulating the minds of the people and therefore they have a justifiable cause to wage genocide against her. Well, the Earth Alliance has another excuse for a war...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
"Irregardless" isn't a word. Might want to ask SUNY Buffalo for a refund there, pal.
While incorrect for formal writing, it is an acceptable word for nonstandard speech or casual writing. Granted, I should have used regardless, however, old habits die hard. So sue me.
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「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2006-08-21, 16:45   Link #103
MesdoramElmdor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
@Regenerate
I'd vote for Candidate A. Why? Because Lacus doesn't know shit about how the government works other than 'lol no weapons'. That being so, if they were attacked one day, she'd expect Kira to launch in the Strike Freedom (their only weapon) against overwhelming odds and when he comes back (or rather doesn't because his AIMbot couldn't keep up), they go 'zzomg he was defeated? no wai! unpossible!' Lacus is a child who ran away from the situation instead of confronting it during the previous war. Had she of really had an agenda and truly wanted peace, she would have ended up working with Chairman Dullindal from the very beginning and this situation would never have happened. PLANT is currently in a state of chaos at the moment, so their reaching out to Lacus appears to be the only viable option at the moment. Albiet, not a very wise one.
I kind of imagine that with Lacus involved, PLANT's decision-making process would work kind of like this:

PLANT Radical: "Let's rebuild our military and mobile suit programs to protect ourselves! I don't trust ORB to maintain the peace, they'll screw things up eventually if Cagalli's previous actions are any indication. We need to be prepared!"
Lacus: "Everyone, I understand your feelings but, if people don't put down their weapons, how can we have peace?"
Everyone: "Mm-mworhhh!!!" (You know what I'm talking about, that noise everyone makes on GSD when someone's made a point that they can't refute.)

Here is the way politics in GSD work - countries are always run by individuals, who can be persuaded of anything if a speaker has the charisma. Lacus can dominate politics everywhere she goes with one-liners that have no content, and yet BWOW, once people hear her "profound' observations about peace, weapons, fighting, and war, there is instant consensus... If Cagalli had had Lacus' speaking skills she could probably have convinced Yuna and his father to forget about an alliance, regardless of all their good reasons for wanting one.

In any real political environment, no one caves that easily, EVER, because they have a power base with an ideological POV and vested interests and set views... and which will put them out of a job if they ever cave. Yet politicians in GSD seem to represent only themselves...
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Old 2006-08-21, 16:57   Link #104
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Yes, because that's what we all want to see: an anime about lengthy parliamentary debates, behind the scene deals about tax laws, and under the table bribes.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:19   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
"Working with children." Yeah... that's normal for her. If she wasn't hiding out, then her orphanage wouldn't have a freaking sealed bunker for her to fall back into. There is no Federation in SEED, wrong series sir. If they were 'pro-Clyne' as they said they were, why wouldn't the contact his daughter, the better spokes person to be true to his ideas? See, this is why Dullindal created the fake Lacus. Had he of asked Lacus herself, I'm sure she would have been willing to help to an extent.
1. The orphanage isn't hers.

2. The one with a 'sealed bunker' belongs to Murre and Andy, and that would be a mansion, not an orphanage.

3. I use the term Fed loosely. It sure as heck easier to type than 'Earth Alliance' or 'OMNI Enforcer'. Moreover, the Atlantic Federation and Eurasian Federation are the primary culprits behind the war, therefore, using the term 'Feddie' is acceptable. Likewise 'old habits die hard', sue me.

4. His daughter never wanted anything to do with power, not surprising if she doesn't want anything to do with her father's faction, either.

5. She wouldn't simply because she always kept a hands-off attitude towards anything political, unless it threatens the balance of power and the status quo.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
Dullindal did absolutely nothing wrong, aside from the Destiny Plan. And if you people are still hung up on him being the one that sent in the ZAFT commando team, you need to go watch the show again for the clues..
If you don't think he sent the ZAFT commando tem, YOU need to watch the show again for clues. Better yet, YOU need to read the Destiny Astray manga for further clues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
If Lacus assumes the position of power, everyone will sway over her, then you'll have that group that comes out of the shadows and says Lacus is manipulating the minds of the people and therefore they have a justifiable cause to wage genocide against her. Well, the Earth Alliance has another excuse for a war...
Lacus won't assume the position of power other than a mediating position. I think thats made quite obvious in both series. She only appears when the status quo is threatened.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-21 at 17:45.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:29   Link #106
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The mansion belonged to the Athha family so you both fail super hardcore.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:36   Link #107
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Everyone seems to be overlooking the reason for the last scene in final + . Gratitude for the efforts of the Clyne faction and a reunification/promotion. Their efforts against the warmongers would be seen as qualification for the job for those in PLANT who are seeking peace.

This new info raises a few questions : Since we know there is alliance with Orb and PLANT, What significance is there of Orb? I would hope it just becomes an earth extension of PLANT with a tolerance for naturals or something. I am sick of the identity issues and hope that is a closed chapter.

So who are the enemy? The evil, durandal connected ex-ZAFT and their EA cohorts? I would like more light to be brought to the secret dealings that happened between them. The Destroy data comes to mind but there was more I believe. It would be great to find out that there was a secret alliance that still exists and has had to regroup.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:38   Link #108
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ZAFT's structure has been based (according to an interview) on Tsahal's (Israel's army) - no ranks at all although generals can exist, but everyone is more or less on even footing (since technically everyone is equal before death). IIRC redcoats (captains?) are those who graduated from the Academy with high honors and top of their class, blackcoats (majors?) are higher officers part of the military bureaucracy and often addressed as 'kanchou' while whitecoats (colonels?) are blackcoats that have distinguished themselves in battle enough to gain a higher importance among their peers. Aces sometimes called 'taisho' or team commanders. Purplecoats would be HQ staff members, generals, Supreme Council members, garrison commanders, etc, etc.
What? Any source for this interview, because I do know that the Israel army have a complete rank structure like any other modern army. And I know the backgrounds of the redcoats and such, I was merely putting it into context.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:47   Link #109
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Once again, it was from "GSD 20 questions" in November 2005's Animage edition.

"The fact that ZAFT forces have no clear ranks was an idea borrowed from the old Israel army... "

The link I have is now dead, unfortunately, but it was first written here in Animesuki.

EDIT: Okay, I got some details from a now archived post at seed-forums.
It's an Animage interview with Morita himself.
Quote:
*How come ZAFT doesn't have military ranks?
ZAFT only became an official army after battle broke out with EA. Before, it's kinda like a national militia of PLANT civilians, so there was no rank. ZAFT is modeled after the Israeli army during the Middle East wars. Technically there is ranks, but when fighting against the arabic nations, so as to protect the size of their troops, they were named after the commanders' names.

This is perhaps the wisedom of a small country, so we borrowed this idea. That's why there's Kleuze team, Joule team, but you don't really know how big they are, or what's their rank.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:50   Link #110
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Lacus won't assume the position of power other than a mediating position. I think thats made quite obvious in both series. She only appears when the status quo is threatened.

- Tak
But are you not taking into context Kira in a white-coat? I mean Kira minus the ZAFT affiliation maybe, but him being in that coat is what's making people come to these potential conclusions. If Lacus is just mediating and shooting the breeze then Kira isn't in a whitecoat. All you thinking Lacus presence in PLANT as shown in Final Plus is just some smoke and mirrors, Fukuda will fail you.

Quote:
How come ZAFT doesn't have military ranks?
ZAFT only became an official army after battle broke out with EA. Before, it's kinda like a national militia of PLANT civilians, so there was no rank. ZAFT is modeled after the Israeli army during the Middle East wars. Technically there is ranks, but when fighting against the arabic nations, so as to protect the size of their troops, they were named after the commanders' names.
That may have been relevant immediatley following Bloody Valentine, but in the 4 subsequent years it's clear that a white-coat is over a red coat is over a green-coat in military rank. Purple coats seem to be like congressmen, representatives, or something which are under the Chairman.
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Old 2006-08-21, 17:58   Link #111
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It actually seems like this (from the lower-downs to the higher-ups):
Greencoats (cannon fodder) --> Redcoats (top of the Academy class) --> Blackcoats (common commander) --> Whitecoats (ace commander) --> Purplecoats (National Defense / Supreme Council members / generals)
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Old 2006-08-21, 18:00   Link #112
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Yeah I was just gonna mention people in positions like Arthur (MINERVAs EXO) are above reds and below whites...I think Arthur was a black.
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Old 2006-08-21, 18:09   Link #113
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Originally Posted by hanxthre
But are you not taking into context Kira in a white-coat? I mean Kira minus the ZAFT affiliation maybe, but him being in that coat is what's making people come to these potential conclusions. If Lacus is just mediating and shooting the breeze then Kira isn't in a whitecoat. All you thinking Lacus presence in PLANT as shown in Final Plus is just some smoke and mirrors, Fukuda will fail you.
I don't think it is that difficult to comprehend. As I said, Kira wearing a whitey is the closest thing to his ORB rank, which he has yet to abandon. Moreover, to avoid political implications, a white coat seems far fitting in his situation. I don't think he wants to wear an Earth or Orb uniform and parade on the streets.

As for Lacus? As I said before, I assume she is now in a position of importance in PLANT. Wether that'd be the chairwoman or not, I do not know. At this point, all of us can only speculate. However, if she is now the chairwoman, she won't be one for long, because that is simply not her character. She only wanted to live with Kira in peace, so even if she IS the chairwoman now, she won't be in that position for too long.

If FATkuda want to alter her character so drastically (turning Lacus into a power-monger), he'd have to put in some serious work.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-21 at 18:25.
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Old 2006-08-21, 18:22   Link #114
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Wish people would stop calling it "-coats"...sounds dumb and their uniforms aren't even coated...
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Old 2006-08-21, 18:31   Link #115
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@Tak - If Lacus is just a glorified mediator, what reason would there be for Kira to wear a whitecoat?? He could very well wear his tasteless leather one-piece with endless straps if his Orb uni is gonna piss ZAFT people off. (which is silly since when people of other nations come together for peace talks they just where their country's uniform since it's understood they are trying to make peace) If a peace mediator from Isreal or China or wherever comes to the US for talks does his/her military entourage wear a US military outfit to somehow compensate or equalize? Since when do guys switching nationalistic factions cosplay in the other guys threads? IMO for Kira to be wearing that outfit (outside of the goofy undercover theory), there has to be some type of official link...Lacus will be that link. You can't just cosplay in ZAFT clothing because you don't wanna rub people the wrong way in your Orb clothing. I know if 'm Yzak or whoever i'd be pissed if somebody was wearing my official rank as some halloween costume. It has to mean more than what you are suggesting is all I'm saying.
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Old 2006-08-21, 18:41   Link #116
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Originally Posted by hanxthre
@Tak - If Lacus is just a glorified mediator, what reason would there be for Kira to wear a whitecoat?? He could very well wear his tasteless leather one-piece with endless straps if his Orb uni is gonna piss ZAFT people off. (which is silly since when people of other nations come together for peace talks they just where their country's uniform since it's understood they are trying to make peace) If a peace mediator from Isreal or China or wherever comes to the US for talks does his/her military entourage wear a US military outfit to somehow compensate or equalize? Since when do guys switching nationalistic factions cosplay in the other guys threads? IMO for Kira to be wearing that outfit (outside of the goofy undercover theory), there has to be some type of official link...Lacus will be that link. You can't just cosplay in ZAFT clothing because you don't wanna rub people the wrong way in your Orb clothing. I know if 'm Yzak or whoever i'd be pissed if somebody was wearing my official rank as some halloween costume. It has to mean more than what you are suggesting is all I'm saying.


I miss Kira in this...

Obviously, in formal situations, he wouldn't be wearing his so-called 'tasteless leather one-piece'. Besides, I -never- said there wouldn't be a possibility that Kira would be working for ZAFT (in fact, I like the idea), and if he is going to work for ZAFT, then he needs the whitey.

I also never said Lacus isn't working for ZAFT. I said she became an individual of importance, and might as well be the temporary chairwoman. However, its a position she doesn't want forever, because that wouldn't be her character. In any case, these are all just speculations, we won't know until the SEs are all out for us to see, so I am gonna corss my fingers and wait. Although with all seriousness, her current position does not allow her to do anything but peace talks. Unless she had committed a coup de tat with her fleet during the last battle. Once again, however, that would have been very uncharacteristic of her.

And I don't agree with that silly undercover theory, either.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-21 at 19:19.
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Old 2006-08-21, 19:13   Link #117
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If we really want to be technical about official details, Lacus technically, cannot represent any side other than PLANT/Coordinators in peace mediating/talks, since her life in ORB with Kira is obviously one with fake identities and such, and that being said, the only real military position that Kira still officially holds is O.M.N.I's Lt. Jr Grade who's M.I.A. As a whole, it cannot be said that Lacus and Terminal is a outsider faction when it is mainly composed of ZAFT/former ZAFT units. No one gave a damn when ex-ZAFTies/etc wore ZAFT military uniforms even when they're battling ZAFT, but makes a big deal out of Kira in a white when Kira can be considered the sword and shield of Terminal.

Terminal doesn't have their own uniform and Lacus isn't Cagalli when dealing in peace talks. Not unless we want to officially create a Terminal Uniform composed of red cloaks and a mask.
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Old 2006-08-21, 19:50   Link #118
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Stop the Star Wars implications. It's stupid and I find it rather insulting as a bigger fan of Star Wars than of Gundam. Other than Shinn's actions near the end of GSD being loosely similar to the way Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine, the two are almost completely unrelated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
the only real military position that Kira still officially holds is O.M.N.I's Lt. Jr Grade who's M.I.A.
When was he ever promoted above shōi (Ensign)? IIRC, the last time Archangel crew received any kind of promotion was after they descended to Earth, at which time Kira was promoted to Ensign.
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Old 2006-08-21, 20:15   Link #119
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Wow. just saw that picture. Interesting and it makes me happy because it means Kira will have some new screentime in the new SE's.
I think Kira looks good in anything he wears and the white zaft uniform is no exception. (anyone sees the Kira fan here?)

But I don't think Kira can ever join Zaft. I mean true. Athrun betrayed Zaft but he had a lot of achievements in Zaft and all, but Kira was an EA and Orb soldier, fighting all his life againts ZAFT. I mean it is rather strange if he will not get killed because of treason.

Also Kira has an aura of mystery around him as the legandry freedom pilot that probably no one other than a very few know about. Now it will shatter that high picture if he joins ZAFT ever. Isn't it rather stupid for the "legandry freedom pilot" that has fought ZAFT all the time to come and join it?

My guess is he is just accompanying Lacus to Plant (probably with an alias) and as someone else mentioned he can't wear Orb uniform there. So the ZAFT uniform (and maybe Lacus thinks White suits him best so he is wearing white?:P)
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Old 2006-08-21, 20:32   Link #120
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Originally Posted by Nightengale
If we really want to be technical about official details, Lacus technically, cannot represent any side other than PLANT/Coordinators in peace mediating/talks, since her life in ORB with Kira is obviously one with fake identities and such, and that being said, the only real military position that Kira still officially holds is O.M.N.I's Lt. Jr Grade who's M.I.A. As a whole, it cannot be said that Lacus and Terminal is a outsider faction when it is mainly composed of ZAFT/former ZAFT units. No one gave a damn when ex-ZAFTies/etc wore ZAFT military uniforms even when they're battling ZAFT, but makes a big deal out of Kira in a white when Kira can be considered the sword and shield of Terminal.

Terminal doesn't have their own uniform and Lacus isn't Cagalli when dealing in peace talks. Not unless we want to officially create a Terminal Uniform composed of red cloaks and a mask.
I'm sorry i fail to see the point you are making...Just because no one gave a damn about ZAFT traitors during the last war (yes Yzak, Dearka, and Athrun who were later helped pardoned by Durandal)...What bearing whatsoever would that have on Kira representing ZAFT post GSD?? This situation isn't the same and the trivial way inwhich this is being viewed kinda makes me hope somebody would just say, "Well I like Kira, so there, fuck it. Let him wear it." It would make alot of this rationalising more acceptable to me. It's like every excuse known to man is applicable when applied to Kira. I like the kid too, but ANYBODY sporting a white ZAFT coat as cosplay makes no sense..Doesn't matter what happened in Jachin Due. I WOULD make a big deal out of someone who nobody knows wearing a high ranking ZAFT outfit because that isn't a rain-coat, it has meaning. And Terminal can't just have ZAFT suits like this is all a game. That's like the mafia wearing US infantry and 3-star General uniforms. Terminal is a covert faction, ZAFT loyalists or not, they ARE NOT a national government with officers and such! Insider or outsider faction you just don't become the military like this is some big joke.

I can't believe I'm letting this get under my skin, but I just don't like it when we as a fandom try to make these far-fetched excuses for characters we like. As if "No one gives a damn" is an acceptable response for this. Sorry for the rant.
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