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Old 2008-10-21, 07:23   Link #2141
Droplet
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Pardon me for the following analogy but saying that Lelouch is dead without regard to the ambiguity of Turn 25 just because the creators say so is just like saying that God exists because the Bible says so.

And if you don't know where I'm getting at, the above are examples of circular reasoning. If some don't know why circular reasoning is bad, it's because it's fallacious.

Until we get a proper ending in the form of animation (which should provide additional context about what happened in the epilogue), I maintain that it's still ambiguous whether Lelouch is alive or not.

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Old 2008-10-21, 07:27   Link #2142
npal
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Wait, since when do we count the Bible as the creator of God?

/me scratches head
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:37   Link #2143
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
Wait, since when do we count the Bible as the creator of God?

/me scratches head
To quote Rene Descartes:

"Granted, it is altogether true that we must believe in God's existence because it is taught in the Holy Scriputres, and, conversely, that we must believe the Holy Scriptures because they have Come from God... This reasoning cannot be proposed to unbelievers because they would judge it to be circular."

Also see, if you want further info, Begging the question
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:40   Link #2144
npal
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My point was that if we believe anyway, God is essentially the creator of the Bible and not the other way around. In Lelouch case, keeping the Bible->God analogy would mean that Taniguchi exists because Lelouch says so.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:42   Link #2145
bladeofdarkness
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a debate about the validity of god and the circular nature of religus belief
in the code geass generic thread
who'd have thunk it

and if the creator says lelouch is ment to be dead then he is canoniclly dead
if this is reteconed later then it changes it
but for now word of god says he is dead
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:42   Link #2146
Train Samurai
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Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
Pardon me for the following analogy but saying that Lelouch is dead without regard to the ambiguity of Turn 25 just because the creators say so is just like saying that God exists because the Bible says so.

And if you don't know where I'm getting at, the above are examples of circular reasoning. If some don't know why circular reasoning is bad, it's because it's fallacious.

Until we get a proper ending in the form of animation, I maintain that it's still ambiguous whether Lelouch is alive or not.

So your basically saying you would throw out all the dramatic meaning of his final scene just because of its ambiguity as a whole


Frankly I'll take the writer's word over the director since he states quite clear that Lelouch is dead and if you need it to be seen in some animated form you got it right infront of you when blood was pouring out f him. But like with religion let people believe what they want to believe and that was the point of the ending.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:46   Link #2147
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
My point was that if we believe anyway, God is essentially the creator of the Bible and not the other way around. In Lelouch case, keeping the Bible->God analogy would mean that Taniguchi exists because Lelouch says so.
I'm sorry but you'll surely be confused if you treat both the arguments as the same.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:50   Link #2148
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
So your basically saying you would throw out all the dramatic meaning of his final scene just because of its ambiguity as a whole


Frankly I'll take the writer's word over the director since he states quite clear that Lelouch is dead and if you need it to be seen in some animated form you got it right infront of you when blood was pouring out f him. But like with religion let people believe what they want to believe and that was the point of the ending.
No, you misunderstand me. What I'm doing is that I am being skeptical because I am not thoroughly convinced with the ending. If you disagree with my skepticism because it all seems crystal clear to you, then carry on with your truth and let me decide for mine.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:51   Link #2149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
Pardon me for the following analogy but saying that Lelouch is dead just because the creators say so is just like saying that God exists because the Bible says so.

And if you don't know where I'm getting at, this is just circular reasoning.

What?

Sorry if I miunderstand you, but Okuchi and Taniguchi are the very creators of the show, I think they have quite a better idea than ANYONE else of what ending of their story was....

In the story that they created, Leloudh ended up dead, period. Anything else is fanfiction. Sorry for all the Lelouch is alive believers, but there is no more ambiguity in both Okuchi's and Taniguchi's interviews.

Also, your analogy actually doesn't work at all, because Okuchi never said anything about real life, he just talked about a fictional story that he created.... if you want to make an analogy with the Bible, then it would be about things that were related in the Bible, like "Saying Lelouch is dead because the writers said so is like saying Jesus resurrected because the Bible said so.", and even so it would be a bad analogy, as Lelouch is a fictional character whereas Jesus actually existed.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:54   Link #2150
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Actually, Lelouch is like a Schrodinger's cat to me now. He can be alive, or he can be dead.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:54   Link #2151
Train Samurai
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Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
No, you misunderstand me. What I'm doing is that I am being skeptical because I am not thoroughly convinced with the ending. If you disagree with my skepticism because it all seems crystal clear to you, then carry on with your truth and let me decide for mine.
Well go on with your blind skepticism because even after the writer clearly states Lelouch death as well as a strong reason backing it up, you won't be satisfied either way.
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Old 2008-10-21, 07:58   Link #2152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baixinho View Post
What?

Sorry if I miunderstand you, but Okuchi and Taniguchi are the very creators of the show, I think they have quite a better idea than ANYONE else of what ending of their story was....

In the story that they created, Leloudh ended up dead, period. Anything else is fanfiction. Sorry for all the Lelouch is alive believers, but there is no more ambiguity in both Okuchi's and Taniguchi's interviews.

Also, your analogy actually doesn't work at all, because Okuchi never said anything about real life, he just talked about a fictional story that he created.... if you want to make an analogy with the Bible, then it would be about things that were related in the Bible, like "Saying Lelouch is dead because the writers said so is like saying Jesus resurrected because the Bible said so.", and even so it would be a bad analogy, as Lelouch is a fictional character whereas Jesus actually existed.
This is a thoughtful reply but you somehow missed the point.

Think of it this way:

What if J.K. Rowling just said that Dumbledore is dead without letting anyone read the 6th Book of Harry Potter? Wouldn't you be curious as to why and how that happened?

I doubt you'd just blindly take her word for it without knowing why. The way I feel right now about Code Geass is like a person who's been given spoilers for a book she hasn't yet read completely.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:01   Link #2153
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Originally Posted by Train Samurai View Post
Well go on with your blind skepticism because even after the writer clearly states Lelouch death as well as a strong reason backing it up, you won't be satisfied either way.
Thank you. But it's quite ironic to say "blind skepticism", in contrast to "blind faith", which is what I'd believe of those who readily believe that Lelouch is dead. This is just my opinion of course.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:06   Link #2154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
This is a thoughtful reply but you somehow missed the point.

Think of it this way:

What if J.K. Rowling just said that Dumbledore is dead without letting anyone read the 6th Book of Harry Potter? Wouldn't you be curious as to why and how that happened?

I doubt you'd just blindly take her word for it without knowing why. The way I feel right now about Code Geass is like a person who's been given spoilers for a book she hasn't yet read completely.


but that is not nearly the case
this is not simple being told about it without seeing it
we all saw lelouch die in a long draw out scene
compelete with the motives and reasons for his death and an entire "life flashing before his eyes" thing
this is not based on word of god alone
this is the word of god setteling the debate about wherther or not he is dead (which even without word of god seems the likely option)
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:07   Link #2155
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Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
Thank you. But it's quite ironic to say "blind skepticism", in contrast to "blind faith", which is what I'm saying to those who readily believe that Lelouch is dead.
Consiering that the writer said it himself that Lelouch is dead doesn't that make you a tad delusional? Plus it makes sense for him to die since he's sacrificing his tomorrow so everyone could have theirs and Suzaku is sacrificing is happiness so everyone would be happy, him actually being alive would kill the purpose in general and all for what so fans can be happy or to see him be with is true love? It's ridiculous in itself and really if you want to believe that Lelouch is alive than why don't you believe Asahina to be alive as well if Guilford and Nunnally can survive FRIEJA why not him and 10 million others But I disgrace the point of the ending was to make it so open that anyone can think of alternate scenarios and believe whatever the hell they want regardless.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:18   Link #2156
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@bladeofdarkness & Train Samurai:

Both of you are clearly biased towards one possibility while I am clearly biased towards being skeptical about all this.

I don't think anything meaningful can come out of this, should I argue with you. So let's not argue nor persuade each other. In the meantime, your logic, as infallible as it can be, cannot in the least compensate for the closure that alot of people seek.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:23   Link #2157
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Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
@bladeofdarkness & Train Samurai:

Both of you are clearly biased towards one possibility while I am clearly biased towards being skeptical about all this.

I don't think anything meaningful can come out of this, should I argue with you. So let's not argue nor persuade each other. In the meantime, your logic, as perfect as it can be, cannot compensate for the closure that I seek.
Whatever, it just means we can't take you seriously anyways if you fail to reason with logic but regardless have fun seeking "closure" as you speak

And no we're not being biased we're taking the creators word over speculation, if they say he's dead he's dead plain and simple but at the same time they acknowledge the fanbase's wishes so they left it up to their imagination on what happen.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:31   Link #2158
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Whatever, it just means we can't take you seriously anyways if you fail to reason with logic but regardless have fun seeking "closure" as you speak

And no we're not being biased we're taking the creators word over speculation, if they say he's dead he's dead plain and simple but at the same time they acknowledge the fanbase's wishes so they left it up to their imagination on what happen.
Posts like the above is why I immediately decide not to argue with someone who's already contented himself with a conclusion.
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:40   Link #2159
bladeofdarkness
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@Droplet
i'll except that we agree to disagree
and i like the fact that your being mature about it unlike most posters
so long for now then
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Old 2008-10-21, 08:48   Link #2160
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Posts like the above is why I immediately decide not to argue with someone who's already contented himself with a conclusion.
Well good for you, it proves that you don't have a decent rebuttal to support your own thesis, so in short you give up due to knowing that you have nothing further to add on. Anyways it's pointless to have arguments with people like you.
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