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Old 2008-12-19, 11:46   Link #2961
Haku-Men
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I'll give the series credit for demonstrating that Lelouch's POV wasn't the good side sort to speak.
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Old 2008-12-19, 11:51   Link #2962
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
Everyone (ex: Arthur, Milly, Rivalz, and Euphiemia) was an anti-villain in this series which I really enjoyed about since it meant we weren't torn to choose a better side because they each had their own faults in morality as a whole.
*nods*
Not to mention that completely "good" and entirely "bad" characters tend to bore me.
I mean, I really like Rivalz, for example, but even he had his faults.
I didn't see him preaching human rights, after all. xD

Quote:
When you look at series like Death Note when it's clearly obviously that Light was the bad guy or GSD when its clear that O.R.B were the good guys you feel you don't get the full scope of the story
I agree, even though I think that there weren't many "good guys" in Deat Note, either.
Light was just too much of a sociopath and a maniac for my taste. xD

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and Lelouch could consider an completely evil person or very sympathetic and downright loving depending how you look at it (I'm the former by the way) And I'll give it that.
Then I'm the latter. xD
I don't believe in things like "good" and "evil", and even though Lelouch's methods were highly questionable, he was never a bad person at heart.
But I like hearing about different opinons.
I mean, I'm a Clovis fangirl... xD

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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Yes. This. Me too. I love you, dear, but you know that already.
I love you, too. xD
*hugs*
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Old 2008-12-19, 16:02   Link #2963
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
Everyone (ex: Arthur, Milly, Rivalz, and Euphiemia) was an anti-villain in this series which I really enjoyed about since it meant we weren't torn to choose a better side because they each had their own faults in morality as a whole. When you look at series like Death Note when it's clearly obviously that Light was the bad guy or GSD when its clear that O.R.B were the good guys you feel you don't get the full scope of the story and Lelouch could consider an completely evil person or very sympathetic and downright loving depending how you look at it (I'm the former by the way) And I'll give it that.
What the hell are you talking about?

Charles wasn't the least bit sympathetic, sure his mother died but that gives no reason for Charles to go around massacring millions just because he believes that the world operates by Social Darwinism and he wants to restart the world through some instrumentality thing.

Don't confuse Fruedian Excuse or Well Intentioned Extremist with Anti-Villain. Charles and Hilter where well intentioned Extremist, the KoR (for the most part) where Anti-villains, and the Britannia army was your typical Evil Army.

If you saw the story point from Britannia, all you would get would be an army massacring innocent people without giving a rats ass. There is no way that you could ever make the Britannians the good guys because they are clearly not.

If Taniguchi and Okouchi want me to believe that Britannia had its good points, than they failed miserably. Compare the various massacres in Code Geass, with the Ishval Massacre in the Fullmetal Alchemist manga.

In FMA you constantly got people who clearly state that they hate being in Ishval, they hate killing the Ishvalans, and they want to stop. During the course of the massacre half of officer deaths where attributed to soldiers killing their superiors because they could no longer take their orders. Even in the anime you have the scene where Roy almost commits suicide.

In Code Geass at no point in time does anyone question their orders, they just kill Japanese. Some even seem to enjoy it like the soldiers from the first episode.

One of the themes of Fullmetal Alchemist is that the average soldier joins the army because they want to protect civilians. Code Geass has no such themes, and Britannia is nothing more than your stereotypical evil army.

If Taniguchi and Okouchi wanted to portray the Britannia army with sympathy than they failed miserably. Of course I don't think they tried to portray the Britannian army as sympathetic since Okouchi wrote both Turn A Gundam, and King Gainer both series that show that both sides are full of good people. I think Okouchi just wanted to show that while Britannia was evil that they where some good people in it, not that Britannia was good.
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Old 2008-12-19, 16:56   Link #2964
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To believe that Lelouch was completely evil is also pushing it.
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Old 2008-12-19, 17:00   Link #2965
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
What the hell are you talking about?

Charles wasn't the least bit sympathetic, sure his mother died but that gives no reason for Charles to go around massacring millions just because he believes that the world operates by Social Darwinism and he wants to restart the world through some instrumentality thing.
Then again, it didn't matter for Charles' ideal world if people were alive or dead, because in the end, they would all be the same.
Charles was certainly messed up, and sure as hell not sympathetic, but in my eyes, he was at least not "evil". Because in my book, there is simply no such thing as good and evil in real life and when it comes to many characters, because being evil would - to me - mean that someone sees himself as a bad guy.
That's something a truly stereotypical villain might do - someone like Voldemort.
Charles, however, thought he was doing humanity a favour.
And that makes him grey. A very dark shade of grey that looks exactly like black from afar, but still grey.
And as I see it, Mahakala didn't say anything more than that... and maybe not even that. It was a very general notion, after all, except for the Lelouch part.

Quote:
Don't confuse Fruedian Excuse or Well Intentioned Extremist with Anti-Villain. Charles and Hilter where well intentioned Extremist, the KoR (for the most part) where Anti-villains, and the Britannia army was your typical Evil Army.
Hm... I don't disagree.

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If Taniguchi and Okouchi wanted to portray the Britannia army with sympathy than they failed miserably. Of course I don't think they tried to portray the Britannian army as sympathetic since Okouchi wrote both Turn A Gundam, and King Gainer both series that show that both sides are full of good people. I think Okouchi just wanted to show that while Britannia was evil that they where some good people in it, not that Britannia was good.

I think they also wanted to show that the system changes the people, and that most need a push instead of a nudge in order to start thinking. That there are only shades of grey, but that it greatly depends on the circumstances how light or dark they are.
It reminds me of a study that is supposed to prove that people adapt to their environment, and that everyone has the potential for "evil".
...Anyway, this is just my interpretation, but I'll stick with it.
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Old 2008-12-19, 17:34   Link #2966
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
To believe that Lelouch was completely evil is also pushing it.
Code Geass is a true Gray vs Black series in that while Lelouch is not really heroic, his also the only person whose actually competent enough to defeat the Evil Britannia.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Then again, it didn't matter for Charles' ideal world if people were alive or dead, because in the end, they would all be the same.
Charles was certainly messed up, and sure as hell not sympathetic, but in my eyes, he was at least not "evil". Because in my book, there is simply no such thing as good and evil in real life and when it comes to many characters, because being evil would - to me - mean that someone sees himself as a bad guy.
That's something a truly stereotypical villain might do - someone like Voldemort.
Charles, however, thought he was doing humanity a favour.
And that makes him grey. A very dark shade of grey that looks exactly like black from afar, but still grey.
And as I see it, Mahakala didn't say anything more than that... and maybe not even that. It was a very general notion, after all, except for the Lelouch part.

I think they also wanted to show that the system changes the people, and that most need a push instead of a nudge in order to start thinking. That there are only shades of grey, but that it greatly depends on the circumstances how light or dark they are.
It reminds me of a study that is supposed to prove that people adapt to their environment, and that everyone has the potential for "evil".
...Anyway, this is just my interpretation, but I'll stick with it.
And Hitler thought he was giving Humanity a favor by killing all the Jewish, that doesn't mean he was grey in the literary sense. Voldemort thought that Wizards should rule, and be kept pure, he felt that he was doing the right thing, that doesn't mean that he was grey.

Considering that Britannia was never proven wrong, than I don't see why Britannia's philosophy has to change. Britannia is the most powerful nation, they have all the power, why should they share it with the weaker nations. Its not like Japan has anything Britannia wants.

Blaming the system for the actions of individuals is a cop out. "It's not the soldiers fault that they like killing Jaoanese its Charles' fault."
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Old 2008-12-19, 18:24   Link #2967
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Code Geass is a true Gray vs Black series in that while Lelouch is not really heroic, his also the only person whose actually competent enough to defeat the Evil Britannia.



And Hitler thought he was giving Humanity a favor by killing all the Jewish, that doesn't mean he was grey in the literary sense. Voldemort thought that Wizards should rule, and be kept pure, he felt that he was doing the right thing, that doesn't mean that he was grey.
If I say that "black" and "white" don't exist for me in real life, then my answer to that should be clear. However, I would prefer not to discuss real life issues here, because we all know that Hitler was a petty, despisable man, and bringing him up as an example kills the discussion if we don't want to go off-topic and try analyzing his psyche.
Voldemort classifies as "black" to me, though, because as soon as he stopped being "Tom Riddle", he became the most boring stereotype imaginable... he was originally motivated by revenge and, later on, never once stated that he honestly thought he was "doing the right thing".

Quote:
Considering that Britannia was never proven wrong, than I don't see why Britannia's philosophy has to change. Britannia is the most powerful nation, they have all the power, why should they share it with the weaker nations. Its not like Japan has anything Britannia wants.

Blaming the system for the actions of individuals is a cop out. "It's not the soldiers fault that they like killing Jaoanese its Charles' fault."
No. People could have gone against Charles.
But that would require them to determine their values for themselves and make the world their enemy. To do that, most would need a more personal motivation than a general concept of humanism and, even more so, feel that they could change something.
Clovis, for example, wanted to bring peace to Area Eleven. If I had only listened to the Sound Drama and never seen the anime, I would have said he was a very admireable man.
However, he lacked the motivation to go through with his plans. He probably felt he couldn't change anything, anyway, and therefore stopped caring and adapted to the system, living without any real purpose and no other goal in mind than not being disinherited.
I'm not saying that Clovis was a "good guy". But in my opinion, it's a fact that - in a better world or maybe even with a mere push in the right direction - he could have become someone entirely else.
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Old 2008-12-19, 18:39   Link #2968
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R2 DVD Final Vol. Illustration Drama News

Story after the ending, man. Should i be happy or scared to death?


http://geass.at.webry.info/200812/article_4.html
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Old 2008-12-19, 18:47   Link #2969
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
R2 DVD Final Vol. Illustration Drama News

Story after the ending, man. Should i be happy or scared to death?


http://geass.at.webry.info/200812/article_4.html
...Scared to death.
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Old 2008-12-19, 18:51   Link #2970
SonOfHeaven
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So the last PD will be after the ending. I wouldn't be scared. Its written by Okouchi so I would think everyone would be in character whomever shows up in the PD.
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:06   Link #2971
Haku-Men
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
R2 DVD Final Vol. Illustration Drama News

Story after the ending, man. Should i be happy or scared to death?


http://geass.at.webry.info/200812/article_4.html
Happy? Maybe it takes place two years
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:08   Link #2972
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
If I say that "black" and "white" don't exist for me in real life, then my answer to that should be clear. However, I would prefer not to discuss real life issues here, because we all know that Hitler was a petty, despisable man, and bringing him up as an example kills the discussion if we don't want to go off-topic and try analyzing his psyche.
Voldemort classifies as "black" to me, though, because as soon as he stopped being "Tom Riddle", he became the most boring stereotype imaginable... he was originally motivated by revenge and, later on, never once stated that he honestly thought he was "doing the right thing".



No. People could have gone against Charles.
But that would require them to determine their values for themselves and make the world their enemy. To do that, most would need a more personal motivation than a general concept of humanism and, even more so, feel that they could change something.
Clovis, for example, wanted to bring peace to Area Eleven. If I had only listened to the Sound Drama and never seen the anime, I would have said he was a very admireable man.
However, he lacked the motivation to go through with his plans. He probably felt he couldn't change anything, anyway, and therefore stopped caring and adapted to the system, living without any real purpose and no other goal in mind than not being disinherited.
I'm not saying that Clovis was a "good guy". But in my opinion, it's a fact that - in a better world or maybe even with a mere push in the right direction - he could have become someone entirely else.
Voldemort believed in the purity of Wizards so from his point of view he was doing what was right.

The problem is that the average Britannian never even thinks about going against Charles, because they believe he is right about Britannians being better than everyone. I don't see how Britannia conquering the world is going to change that point of view.

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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
R2 DVD Final Vol. Illustration Drama News

Story after the ending, man. Should i be happy or scared to death?


http://geass.at.webry.info/200812/article_4.html
I hope this isn't some idiotic thing like showing Lelouch alive with C.C, Jeremiah, and Anya. That would shoot down the entire guide, and to me show that Okouchi could give a flying rats ass about art and only cares about the money.

Best case scenario is that after the failure of Ougi Japan has descended into a law less anarchy kind of like Mad Max.
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:16   Link #2973
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
I hope this isn't some idiotic thing like showing Lelouch alive with C.C, Jeremiah, and Anya. That would shoot down the entire guide, and to me show that Okouchi could give a flying rats ass about art and only cares about the money.

Best case scenario is that after the failure of Ougi Japan has descended into a law less anarchy kind of like Mad Max.
Can you ever be happy? Seriously. And I think it's been discussed in official material that LELOUCH IS DEAD!
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:19   Link #2974
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Hmm. So, the final picture drama is post show eh? To be honest, I would not be surprised if it fairly closely follows the epilouge. I don't recall many picture dramas bringing in truly important information. It's probably something more to help satisfy fans. Is there any word as to how many years have passed for when it will take place?
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:24   Link #2975
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Hmm. So, the final picture drama is post show eh? To be honest, I would not be surprised if it fairly closely follows the epilouge. I don't recall many picture dramas bringing in truly important information. It's probably something more to help satisfy fans. Is there any word as to how many years have passed for when it will take place?
No not yet but I hope that it's better than the last 3(including the latest one) we've been getting
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:53   Link #2976
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It could be good or bad Picture Drama in terms of the specific content implications, but it will probably be more useful since it's the last one and in a way it would "close" the show.
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Old 2008-12-19, 20:10   Link #2977
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
R2 DVD Final Vol. Illustration Drama News

Story after the ending, man. Should i be happy or scared to death?


http://geass.at.webry.info/200812/article_4.html
Scared of what?
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Old 2008-12-19, 20:13   Link #2978
Charred Knight
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Can you ever be happy? Seriously. And I think it's been discussed in official material that LELOUCH IS DEAD!
I won't feel safe until Okouchi has released all the Picture Dramas and then goes on TV stating that Lelouch is dead.

Hopefully its something like Lelouch in the World of C, with Shirley, and Euphemia.

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Scared of what?
That Lelouch is alive, remember what happened with Dream_Traveller and Nunnaly?

In other words I make an ass of myself, and then find out that the guide was written by someone like the Janitor at Sunrise, and its not really official, kind of like the "Official" website of Code Geass, that had listed Nunnaly as dead and was apparently made by Biglobe
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Old 2008-12-19, 20:22   Link #2979
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post

That Lelouch is alive, remember what happened with Dream_Traveller and Nunnaly?

In other words I make an ass of myself, and then find out that the guide was written by someone like the Janitor at Sunrise, and its not really official, kind of like the "Official" website of Code Geass, that had listed Nunnaly as dead and was apparently made by Biglobe
That was while the show continued to air, I don't think it's a valid comparison and it would be too cheap to bring him back like that.
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Old 2008-12-19, 20:22   Link #2980
Narona
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post

That Lelouch is alive, remember what happened with Dream_Traveller and Nunnaly?

In other words I make an ass of myself, and then find out that the guide was written by someone like the Janitor at Sunrise, and its not really official, kind of like the "Official" website of Code Geass, that had listed Nunnaly as dead and was apparently made by Biglobe
Come on, you can't compare that with what happened about nunnaly, it was logical at that time (there were two shuttles, and even some people noticed that before the confirmation).

Lelouch was confirmed as dead, many times, by the writers.
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