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Old 2009-03-11, 18:50   Link #3821
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Yes we haven't "seen" it. But looking at his standard character do you believe he would not turn on civilians?

Every time Gino had promoted genocide or mass murder it would have theoretically been to the benefit of the war effort. From what we can pull from Gino we could imagine he has a line. Luciano is a wild beast you unleash on your enemies, he would keep the war going on forever to keep his little playground so he can kill with no restraint.

Let's say the Elevens surrendered, who is more likely to have secret Eleven death marches that had no effect on the outcome of the war whatsoever Gino or Luciano?
You can't really just guess, the man has loyal soldiers following him that do not look like loons, so the man cannot be an insufferable lunatic all the time.

The question with Gino is where do you draw the line, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of civilians, not ten or twenty. He is being a pure bread fascist with that line of reasoning, erradicate the troublemakers for the better of my view of society. So where does he draw the line?

I would say neither, Luciano says it simply on his own that he is only interested in fame and glory brought on by victory on the battlefield. Neither of which would come from killing helpless people. Go back and look at what he says carefully, he's not that insane. He just draws sadistic pleasure from war.
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Old 2009-03-11, 18:52   Link #3822
Narona
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I agree, even though I don't think he hates Elevens, specifically. He's just too damn loyal to Britannia - the one kind of loyalty I don't fangirl, because it's completely blind and, from my point of view, stupid. Oh, and fanatic/connected to many irrational, highly questionable emotions.
I can relate better there to Clovis, who apparently just stopped caring all together. Not very admirable, either, but... it makes me want to hug him even more.
I don't remember Gino killing mere japanese civilians for fun in R2 ?_? Nor saying that they should all die. But maybe i am wrong (I am not sarcastic, I really don't remember)?

I think Gino, who is from a noble family, has some dificulties to understand how the world works (was it not stated in a magazine BTW when he was firstly introduced? As a guy from a noble family who doesn't really know how the normal people live?)
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Old 2009-03-11, 18:54   Link #3823
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I don't remember Gino killing mere japanese civilians for fun in R2 ?_? Nor saying that they should all die. But maybe i am wrong (I am not sarcastic, I really don't remember)?
Turn 8, I believe, he suggests that they just cleanse the Japanese that Zero gathered. The majority of which are civilians. I believe he gets reprimanded by someone there for the insanity of his suggestion, I don't recall past it.
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Old 2009-03-11, 18:57   Link #3824
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I don't remember Gino killing mere japanese civilians for fun in R2 ?_? Nor saying that they should all die. But maybe i am wrong (I am not sarcastic, I really don't remember)?
Nah, not for fun - for Britannia.
But I don't remember the exact episode, either. People keep quoting it, though, so I guess the can point you to it.

Quote:
I think Gino, who is from a noble family, has some dificulties to understand how the world works (was it not stated in a magazine BTW when he was firstly introduced? As a guy from a noble family who doesn't really know how the normal people live?)
I agree with that.
Not that it excuses his actions, but it does explain his (borderline-)blind loyalty towards Britannia that he showed for most of the time, and it also implies that he doesn't have a "bad core".
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:01   Link #3825
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I agree with that.
Not that it excuses his actions, but it does explain his (borderline-)blind loyalty towards Britannia that he showed for most of the time, and it also implies that he doesn't have a "bad core".
The problem is that, within the show, he's not presented as someone who doesn't understand how the world works, even the magazine doesn't say such. In all fairness he is presented as someone who fully understands the world of politics and the like, he is a noble afterall, he simply has no knowledge of common life. But none of the nobles really do. His core is not good, at the very least, and its mired in the bloodshed of oppression. Which ties into his blind devotion but it is, nevertheless, a sign of who the man is deep down.

At best he is a standard model Britannian with a gloomy (fine, not rotten) core that looks down on others.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:01   Link #3826
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Turn 8, I believe, he suggests that they just cleanse the Japanese that Zero gathered. The majority of which are civilians. I believe he gets reprimanded by someone there for the insanity of his suggestion, I don't recall past it.
Actually, he reasons that if they revolt they'll have the excuse to cleanse them. He's smart enough to know they just can't do it without the Elevens acting first. Also, he not only doesn't get called on it, the guy he's talking to answers with the standard "Yes, my Lord."
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:02   Link #3827
Narona
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I agree with that.
Not that it excuses his actions, but it does explain his (borderline-)blind loyalty towards Britannia that he showed for most of the time, and it also implies that he doesn't have a "bad core".
That's not an excuse, but Gino seemed to not have a large experience about the world. So he did sometimes act like a kid...? i keep searching for the infos i was talking about.

Quote:
Turn 8, I believe, he suggests that they just cleanse the Japanese that Zero gathered. The majority of which are civilians. I believe he gets reprimanded by someone there for the insanity of his suggestion, I don't recall past it.
The episode with the million of zero? That's because he sees them as rebellious against Britannia, so a potential danger. I was asking if he also wanted to wipe out the japaneses who were not rebellious?
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:04   Link #3828
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
You can't really just guess, the man has loyal soldiers following him that do not look like loons, so the man cannot be an insufferable lunatic all the time.
Because there hasn't been insufferable lunatics who have come to lead nations over the course of human history?

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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
The question with Gino is where do you draw the line, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of civilians, not ten or twenty. He is being a pure bread fascist with that line of reasoning, erradicate the troublemakers for the better of my view of society. So where does he draw the line?
Gino is a classic case of monster to my enemies hero to me. Listen I don't disagree with you that he is a villain. But Luciano did not get much screen time or development so what we have of him is more akin to unreasonable psychopath.

Which is a scarier notion.


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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I would say neither, Luciano says it simply on his own that he is only interested in fame and glory brought on by victory on the battlefield. Neither of which would come from killing helpless people. Go back and look at what he says carefully, he's not that insane. He just draws sadistic pleasure from war.
So it comes down to what disturbs you more the guy who can happily stalk a battlefield and sink a blade into the neck of his enemies and take pleasure in watching them die, or a guy who would go through with a massacre if it helped end a war for his side to win.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:06   Link #3829
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Because there hasn't been insufferable lunatics who have come to lead nations over the course of human history?
Clearly they weren't insufferable to everyone, otherwise they would have never come to power.

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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
So it comes down to what disturbs you more the guy who can happily stalk a battlefield and sink a blade into the neck of his enemies and take pleasure in watching them die, or a guy who would go through with a massacre if it helped end a war for his side to win.
The end result is the same, if Luciano stalks the battlefield and kills all the opponents, its no different from Gino wiping out a group of people to help end the war. It shoudl be noted, though, that a cleansing tends to result in even more bloodshed and uprisings.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Actually, he reasons that if they revolt they'll have the excuse to cleanse them. He's smart enough to know they just can't do it without the Elevens acting first. Also, he not only doesn't get called on it, the guy he's talking to answers with the standard "Yes, my Lord."
Thanks for the clear up, I had it backwards. So he was basically waiting for a psuedo-Boston Massacre scenario, only on a much larger scale.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:12   Link #3830
yvj
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Clearly they weren't insufferable to everyone, otherwise they would have never come to power.
Yeah well fear of death can make some people seem more tolerable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
The end result is the same, if Luciano stalks the battlefield and kills all the opponents, its no different from Gino wiping out a group of people to help end the war. It shoudl be noted, though, that a cleansing tends to result in even more bloodshed and uprisings.
Sure the result is the same but the problem is why its being done. Like you said it comes down to

Luciano seeking pleasure

VS

Gino's nationalism.

You must understand why many find the former more disturbing.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:15   Link #3831
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Yeah well fear of death can make some people seem more tolerable.
Its true, but, hey, like mom said, make friends anyway you can.

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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Sure the result is the same but the problem is why its being done. Like you said it comes down to

Luciano seeking pleasure

VS

Gino's nationalism.

You must understand why many find the former more disturbing.
I do not understand why people question Luciano's nationalism. Its said that he does it for fame and glory, that implies nationalism. You get glory only from your nation and are treated a hero only by them. If anything, that would make him incredibly nationalistic and loyal. He can't get glory and fame if he has no nation to defend, which stems into the idea that he'd just kill people for the sake of killing them, it goes against his words.

I find it to be a situation of:
Luciano's extremely prideful nationalism and the sadistic pleasure he draws from it.

vs.

Gino's fascist nationalism.

They seem equally bad to me, almost interchangeable. If Luciano is only a loon on the battlefield, while Gino waits for excuses to "remove" a bunch of people, I can't say either is better than the other. Its more like different cases of equal severity.

And just to satisfy Godwin's law, Gino has the mindset of a Nazi, Luciano has the mindset of Conan the Barbarian.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:22   Link #3832
yvj
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I do not understand why people question Luciano's nationalism. Its said that he does it for fame and glory, that implies nationalism. You get glory only from your nation and are treated a hero only by them. If anything, that would make him incredibly nationalistic and loyal. He can't get glory and fame if he has no nation to defend, which stems into the idea that he'd just kill people for the sake of killing them, it goes against his words.
I'm going to have to go back and try and get a better sense of the character then because I did not get the vibe at all that he cared about much beyond his strictly personal desires.


In the meantime what are your thoughts about the attempted rape?
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:24   Link #3833
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In the meantime what are your thoughts about the attempted rape?
Stems back into the idea of fame and glory. She is the ace of the black knights. For the same reason he attacked Suzaku, because he was the fame of the Elevens.

I do not approve of it, but it certainly fits into his character's motif.

What do you think about my fulfillment of Godwin's law.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:26   Link #3834
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I do not understand why people question Luciano's nationalism. Its said that he does it for fame and glory, that implies nationalism. You get glory only from your nation and are treated a hero only by them. If anything, that would make him incredibly nationalistic and loyal. He can't get glory and fame if he has no nation to defend, which stems into the idea that he'd just kill people for the sake of killing them, it goes against his words.
He does not do it for fame and glory. He says this himself, twice no less (indirectly in 17, directly in 18). Kallen speculates he wants to become a hero, which he then outright denies. He's there because he likes to kill people in public. Being in the army is nothing but an excuse for him.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:27   Link #3835
Narona
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Actually, he reasons that if they revolt they'll have the excuse to cleanse them. He's smart enough to know they just can't do it without the Elevens acting first. Also, he not only doesn't get called on it, the guy he's talking to answers with the standard "Yes, my Lord."
I rewatched it and Gino only said that:

Suzaku: "wait! they haven't done anything".

Gino: "Indeed, this might be zero's strategy. But, now that this happened if Zero doesn't show up himself..."

(I don't find the "yes my lordo". That's Guilford's line O_o )

As I see it, Gino does think the same as Guilford. He considers those million of japanese to be "rebels" who're doing a "revolt".

So I ask it again, Does Gino ever say that he want to kill japaneses who live in Britannia as Elevens?____?
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:28   Link #3836
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
He does not do it for fame and glory. He says this himself, twice no less (indirectly in 17, directly in 18). Kallen speculates he wants to become a hero, which he then outright denies. He's there because he likes to kill people in public. Being in the army is nothing but an excuse for him.
Ahh alright, then. Well, then I'll say that yes, Luciano is far the miser of the two.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:31   Link #3837
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I rewatched it and Gino only said that:

Suzaku: "wait! they haven't done anything".

Gino: "Indeed, this might be zero's strategy. But, now that this happened if Zero doesn't show up himself..."

As I see it, Gino does think the same as Guilford. He considers those million of japanese to be "rebels" who're doing a "revolt".

So I ask it again, Does Gino ever say that he want to kill japaneses who live in Britannia as Elevens?____?
Watch earlier, before the ceremony actually gets underway. He's on a catwalk as the Tristan is being prepared, talking to someone on his headpiece. The conversation goes as such.

Gino: Zero is about to betray the Elevens.

Soldier on comm: Won't there be a revolt?

Gino: That is when we'll have the wonderful pretext to purge them.

So yes, he's perfectly willing to kill otherwise innocent civilians.
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:33   Link #3838
Narona
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Watch earlier, before the ceremony actually gets underway. He's on a catwalk as the Tristan is being prepared, talking to someone on his headpiece. The conversation goes as such.

Gino: Zero is about to betray the Elevens.

Soldier on comm: Won't there be a revolt?

Gino: That is when we'll have the wonderful pretext to purge them.

So yes, he's perfectly willing to kill otherwise innocent civilians.
Found it, thanks.

But he's still talking about the Elevens who are siding with Lelouch (the one million people), no? He still sees them as rebels against britannia.

He doesn't talk about the Elevens who accepted Britannia.

Am I wrong?___?
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Old 2009-03-11, 19:56   Link #3839
morbosfist
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Found it, thanks.

But he's still talking about the Elevens who are siding with Lelouch (the one million people), no? He still sees them as rebels against britannia.

He doesn't talk about the Elevens who accepted Britannia.

Am I wrong?___?
They weren't siding with Lelouch, though, they were going along with the SAZ because Zero said to. You're arguing a point which has no relevance. No one in the show ever suggests just killing civilians for the sake of it. Flimsy though it may be, they usually do wait for an excuse for genocide. That said, Gino is already anticipating the chance to do this. He's not seeing them as rebels, he's seeing them as civilians he'll have an excuse to kill.
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Old 2009-03-11, 22:23   Link #3840
yvj
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Stems back into the idea of fame and glory. She is the ace of the black knights. For the same reason he attacked Suzaku, because he was the fame of the Elevens.

I do not approve of it, but it certainly fits into his character's motif.
I'm not entirely sure how rape would bring him fame and glory. If anything it would have brought down the wrath of the governor seeing how Kallen was clearly being given special treatment by Nunnally.

I want to know if you don't think it's at least some positive spin for Gino that he's not willing to resort to raping a POW.

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What do you think about my fulfillment of Godwin's law.
Who am I to question fate?
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