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Old 2009-03-16, 17:23   Link #4021
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post


I won't compare Hitler or anything like this, but did you really think that Cornelia was grey-ish at that Ghetto-lure-out-Zero moment?
I can totally get, when one can still like a character, even after he has done some "non-moral" things. But, honest, that Cornelia move, belongs on the total paint-black side.
She was heavily featured as an assassination-trigger that moment, that held no default ethics at all. Can you still find a chara, "lot likable" after this?
Personally, things like these, make a chara non-redeemable to my book.

[just asking, you see how cool-off i am lately, so do not take this with a hostile note. 8)]
Actually, I never look to closely at that motal thingy while watching an anime. If I did, I would probably have thrown something at Clovis and missed the hints for his awesomeness. xD
Either I like a character, or I don't. And Cornelia has this air about her... she's so proud and fierce, and I never thought she was "beyond redemption". I got that impression when it came to the Emperor, or Luciano... but not Cornelia.
R2 could have pulled it off. And even the way it is, I'm fine with how it turned out, even though her change of heart came rather out of nowhere.
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Old 2009-03-16, 17:30   Link #4022
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Actually, I never look to closely at that motal thingy while watching an anime. If I did, I would probably have thrown something at Clovis and missed the hints for his awesomeness. xD
Either I like a character, or I don't. And Cornelia has this air about her... she's so proud and fierce, and I never thought she was "beyond redemption". I got that impression when it came to the Emperor, or Luciano... but not Cornelia.
R2 could have pulled it off. And even the way it is, I'm fine with how it turned out, even though her change of heart came rather out of nowhere.
I think, i am quite aware of that, at this point. 8D

And i am not looking "closely" either, it just hits me. When i see actions like these, i am like "whut, whut?"
Different perspectives, from total different bridges as well. 8D

Well, as long as you do not alter the facts, it is ok. I mean, people can like bastard characters too. {i liked Johan from Monster, but that was because of his diabolic intelligence, something that Cornelia seems to lack of and she was never that interesting to me. Then again, i compare two total different things, now that i think about it. |DD;}
What i meant really, is that characters can be enjoyable and find likable-traces to them, even if they are not good-nature-normal-nature=morals, as long as you can identify an interesting-essence about them.
And Britannia-side, never did that to me. {except Euphie and maybe Lloyd and Cecile, they brought me gag-moments 8D}
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Old 2009-03-16, 17:32   Link #4023
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In s1 ep. 8, Cornelia wouldn't have given a lick about the hostages' safety if it weren't for Euphie's presence.
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Old 2009-03-16, 17:33   Link #4024
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Why should I even want to compare fictional character to people in real life all the time?
Because you need a basis for comparison or even understanding. Without reality you would have no ability to comprehend anything. A person's ability to rationalize is proportional to their understanding of reality. Fictional characters, no matter how fictional, are still based on some conceptual reality.

Its not about wanting, but if you don't do it, then you can say whatever the hell you want to say about a character without rhyme or reason and simply on the justification that they are "fictional".

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And we could muse about psychologial issues now and how some can be more severe than others, but I don't think that would get us anywhere.
I've said it a thousand times, people are defined in the company they keep, and Gino's is the KoR, people like Luciano. This holds true for all of them, therefore none of them are far behind in terms of just how "off" they might be.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Then maybe we should really move on, because we see the KoR in a completely different light, excpet that we both don't think of them as "moral".
Could you actually tell me why you see them differently instead of just stating you do? I can state a lot of things but to be able to actually back them up... well that's a different matter.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Code Geass was all about how people are merely looking for happiness, and how most of them are able to change.
If Leouch had left the world with thousands of psychos running around and waiting for a chance to kill again, the ending would have been rather pointless.
Then he's failed entirely because a very large chunk of humanity is crazy.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Which means we saw something of his more "human" side. The same wasn't really true for the other KoR.
Well, Bismarck, maybe... in a way... but I got the impression he was completely loyal to Charles - not even to Britannia as a whole. That made it a bit hard to let him survive.
Monica displayed perfectly human side, when she was opposing the Emperor's inaction in tending to matters. She was clearly human and proactive. Bismark, we know, is a man who hates war. Nothing says his loyalty is beyond his nation because he quite clearly fights for it after Charles has died. The only difference between them all is what type of fanservice they offered, but they all showed perfectly human sides, Bismarks even had actual depth. But as I said, he wasn't best-gay-buds with Suzaku.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Then there's absolutely no reason why the staff should have let him live if he was the Ultimate Evil.
Hyperboles annoy me, don't use them innapropriately because I am not calling him the ultimate evil. I am calling him an amoral asshat who has no problem killing innocent people. Plenty of asshats are alive after the ending.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And I'll not write an essay about why there is such a big difference. I'll only say that there is a reason why I could never like someone who happily tortured and killed people under Hitler, but am rather fond of Cornelia.
It has to do with reality and fiction, and how I can't seperate mere moral standards from a fictional character's personality.
I am pretty sure that's just called fangirling, because there is nothing there to seperate Cornelia's ghetto slaughter, from Hitler's. They killed people with an agenda in mind with no regard to the people they were killing. Britannia and Nazi Germany have plenty of similarities even if its just the superior-race attitude present in both.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
The Number System's purpose was to make the respective countires (economically) stable again, nothing more and nothing less.
The politically given reason, but as you can see in the story itself, none of the areas were actually good places for the people that lived in them. That's why you have Cornelia touring the world at the start, keeping the areas down. Otherwise, the entire point of Lelouch liberating the areas and being praised for it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Uhm... no. I'm pretty sure that Hitler didn't like the Jewish very much, just like he didn't like disabled people.
He's quoting history for you. Quite factually that is what Hitler did, he did not just kill them out of personal hatred, he used them to unify Germany through its common hatred. He did this with Jewish, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and foreigners.
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Old 2009-03-16, 17:45   Link #4025
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
I think, i am quite aware of that, at this point. 8D

And i am not looking "closely" either, it just hits me. When i see actions like these, i am like "whut, whut?"
Different perspectives, from total different bridges as well. 8D
Yeah, it's definitely interesting. xD

Quote:
Well, as long as you do not alter the facts, it is ok. I mean, people can like bastard characters too. {i liked Johan from Monster, but that was because of his diabolic intelligence, something that Cornelia seems to lack of and she was never that interesting to me. Then again, i compare two total different things, now that i think about it. |DD;}
What i meant really, is that characters can be enjoyable and find likable-traces to them, even if they are not good-nature-normal-nature=morals, as long as you can identify an interesting-essence about them.
And Britannia-side, never did that to me. {except Euphie and maybe Lloyd and Cecile, they brought me gag-moments 8D}[/FONT][/B]
I see where you're coming from, and I think I don't need to mention that Clovis totally did that for me. xD
And Lloyd. And... well, I like most characters, including Cornelia and Schneizel. But I could fangirl Clovis all day, and adore the mad scientist. xD




Ah, I think I don't have the time to reply to everything you said, Frost, so I'll try to sum some things up in very few words:
I just can't compare Code Geass characters to Hitler. I don't know those who served under said dictator personally, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have liked them much even if they were fictional characters with exact the same personality.
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Could you actually tell me why you see them differently instead of just stating you do? I can state a lot of things but to be able to actually back them up... well that's a different matter.
Becuase of their personality? Because they have never been shown to do a lot of the stuff people in (pre-) Nazi Germany did, like writing certain disgusting speeches?
I'm not sure I can explain this to someone who feels this comparison makes perfect sense. And I don't think I want to... discussions are awesome, but this isn't really fun, and it eats time.

Quote:
He's quoting history for you. Quite factually that is what Hitler did, he did not just kill them out of personal hatred, he used them to unify Germany through its common hatred. He did this with Jewish, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and foreigners.
Not the disabled people, though.
And I'm pretty sure he would have killed them all "for fun" anyway.
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Old 2009-03-16, 17:57   Link #4026
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Ah, I think I don't have the time to reply to everything you said, Frost, so I'll try to sum some things up in very few words:
I just can't compare Code Geass characters to Hitler. I don't know those who served under said dictator personally, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have liked them much even if they were fictional characters with exact the same personality.
You don't know much about the KoR either, all you know is that Gino can smile and be best-buds with an "Eleven". Which is why I said, a while back, that you are being entirely arbitrary in your reasonings. You don't know these characters personally, either. Gino, Cornelia, and so on, all have done/suggested/perpetuated evils. I am not saying they are the embodiment of evil, but they are, simply, asshats.

The only difference here, between the fictional killers and the historical counterparts, is that the fictional ones are infront of you and you can "familiarize yourself with them" somewhat. That doesn't, however, change who they are. As you said yourself, you tend to ignore the morals while watching the show. You are liking characters based on nothing more than how they appeal to you. Of course the historical figures, which will never appeal to you since no one is going to try to make them appeal to you, would be a distinct disadvantage to garner your liking, no matter how similar they are to their fictional analogies.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Becuase of their personality? Because they have never been shown to do a lot of the stuff people in (pre-) Nazi Germany did, like writing certain disgusting speeches?
A lot of stuff that people did? You mean one single person. And you didn't find the speeches Charles gave disgusting? They are darwinistic fascism which is, pretty much to a T, what Hitler did with the Arian ideologies he spewed.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Not the disabled people, though.
And I'm pretty sure he would have killed them all "for fun" anyway.
Um... you're basing this on what, exactly? He killed disabled for the exact same reason, to unify the nation. That was under the pretense of strength through unity of the perfect race. His success in unifying Germany is evidant in just how far his warmachine went.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:01   Link #4027
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I am pretty sure that's just called fangirling, because there is nothing there to seperate Cornelia's ghetto slaughter, from Hitler's. They killed people with an agenda in mind with no regard to the people they were killing. Britannia and Nazi Germany have plenty of similarities even if its just the superior-race attitude present in both.
Ahhh, Goodwins law in action. Sorry for going OT here but i can't help but smirk when someone brings up nazis in a discussion, even though the similarities are there.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:04   Link #4028
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Ahhh, Goodwins law in action. Sorry for going OT here but i can't help but smirk when someone brings up nazis in a discussion, even though the similarities are there.
I said I was envoking it when I started the discussion, lol.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:06   Link #4029
ginran
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That scene was there to show, how two people from complete different background and stuff, that have nothing in common {actually Kallen disliked him} can "unite" under threat of a "universal" enemy.
It was certainly not important/woah/"romantic" or anything like this, but it showed a bit of +progress, compared to their previous interactions.
Just a nice/cool/normal scene to end the BGM-scenes-skip.
yea, thats a good way to put it! thank you sky. my point was that I didnt get a bad vibe between them, I didnt get the feeling that Kallen hated him or anything at that moment. Not that it was "OMG Romance Scene!", but just what you said.

@ Eliarine: Good to know I'm not alone.

@ Frost: I didnt forget. But, I just got the impression that the whole "trash talk" scene didnt matter to her at that point, or at least that she wasnt as upset about it anymore. They did end up working together later on, and I dont think Kallen is the type to side with someone she really hates. But again, I could be wrong.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:08   Link #4030
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I said I was envoking it when I started the discussion, lol.
Ooops, must have missed it.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:10   Link #4031
Frostfire
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@ Frost: I didnt forget. But, I just got the impression that the whole "trash talk" scene didnt matter to her at that point, or at least that she wasnt as upset about it anymore. They did end up working together later on, and I dont think Kallen is the type to side with someone she really hates. But again, I could be wrong.
I didn't really say she was upset, just that she didn't really care/pay attention all that much about what he said. People can work together while not liking each other, but its pretty clear that she doesn't hate him. He talks trash just like every other Britannian, she clearly doesn't hate them just because they are racist to her people, but she certainly doesn't like them.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:13   Link #4032
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
I didn't really say she was upset, just that she didn't really care/pay attention all that much about what he said. People can work together while not liking each other, but its pretty clear that she doesn't hate him. He talks trash just like every other Britannian, she clearly doesn't hate them just because they are racist to her people, but she certainly doesn't like them.
Well, technically speaking, she does have a pic of him, as being shown in the last episode, even if it is with the rest of gang. That shows that she definitely does not hate him or dislike him extremely.
I suppose, on her list of Britannia-pigs, he is a bit of a step above from the others, since they co-operated and stuff. 8D
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:18   Link #4033
ginran
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I didn't really say she was upset, just that she didn't really care/pay attention all that much about what he said. People can work together while not liking each other, but its pretty clear that she doesn't hate him. He talks trash just like every other Britannian, she clearly doesn't hate them just because they are racist to her people, but she certainly doesn't like them.
Okay, I get what you're saying.

but she does like some Britannians, lets not forget Lelouch and student council. lol, sorry, thats not really relevant here is it?

EDIT: I agree with you, Sky.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:34   Link #4034
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Okay, I get what you're saying.

but she does like some Britannians, lets not forget Lelouch and student council. lol, sorry, thats not really relevant here is it?

EDIT: I agree with you, Sky.
Of course she likes some Britannians because the ones you listed were good people, though one of them was a bit crazy. Fortunaly (?), she's never heard Gino say some of the more idiotic things he said early on in the series or to Suzaku later on, otherwise she may well not like him.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:37   Link #4035
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Of course she likes some Britannians because the ones you listed were good people, though one of them was a bit crazy. Fortunaly (?), she's never heard Gino say some of the more idiotic things he said early on in the series or to Suzaku later on, otherwise she may well not like him.
I think it was probably better that she didnt hear those things, then they might really have not been able to work together in the end and something wouldve gone really wrong! XD
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:41   Link #4036
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they didnt work together all that much when you really think about it
he opened the door for her after HE tried to take suzaku all by himself and failed
and he ended up catching her when she fell AFTER her life or death dual with suzaku
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:43   Link #4037
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I think it was probably better that she didnt hear those things, then they might really have not been able to work together in the end and something wouldve gone really wrong! XD
Well, if we go by the question that was brought up before for Turn 23, if she heard the answer she gave Lelouch/Suzaku, she may have killed him along with Suzaku.

If we go by hearing what he said during the 1 million zeroes thing, then she would have probably killed him.

... Looks like he would have been dead either way.
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Old 2009-03-16, 18:47   Link #4038
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they didnt work together all that much when you really think about it
he opened the door for her after HE tried to take suzaku all by himself and failed
and he ended up catching her when she fell AFTER her life or death dual with suzaku
Well, at one point, i thought that was kind of the plan. He did his "part" as he said. He would never expect to take into Lancelot directly.
Kallen on the other hand, she had a hell of more chances. And well, she did her "part" too. |D;
So in a way, you can say they co-operated. {she even acknowledged that tiny contribution of him, with a "thanks" 8D}

But like i said, this does not mean he is on her "yay friends list". But it is not unfair to say, that she does not see him, as she used to. "See" as in hate. 8D
It is kind of better than this.
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Old 2009-03-17, 07:52   Link #4039
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^ Of course I agree with this, and I see no other possible way to interpret that small, inconclusive yet present scene for Gino if not for showing he is changed from the person he was in turn 17. There must be a reason why that scene is there, and as sky pointed out before - your smooth mode is the awesomeness indeed, darling - the reading that makes sense the most is 'even people that were so distant before are finding a common ground because of this and that'.

Crappy development? rushed development? could be, most probably is, but it is there and it's proportionate to the small relevance Gino had to the plot, way more proportionate than any change occurred for Cornelia given her starting position.

So, c'mon guys, you can't simply trash away this saying 'it's too small of a change' or asking, to believe that characters actually changed even a little, to have the same development Lelouch had, and I don't see how one can ask for this much, in a series that is so strongly centered on its protagonist and gives a lot less space to anyone else.
Ask for better, okay, but little we have, little we have to go with...



About the potential Geass - now that was funny =) - Shirley would probably get some empathic power - like Mao, but more on the emotional level - so that she can know if she can trust people or not - a lie detector, similar to what Grey said about Suzaku.

Lloyd might have a 'knowledge sucker' geass: absorbing knowledge from people with eye contact, and maybe even transmitting knowledge to someone else.

Jeremiah would have the Geass of absolute loyalty: being possessed by the consicence of the person he chose as his master at his own will.

Karen and Suzaku, I don't know, but I'm in the line of some enhancement of senses, like speed, as other said, or 360°view (byakugan, yay! XD)

Schneizel might have some 'emotions killer' geass: people become apathetic intelligences without any emotion at all.

Last edited by Levy; 2009-03-17 at 08:13.
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Old 2009-03-17, 08:26   Link #4040
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^ Of course I agree with this, and I see no other possible way to interpret that small, inconclusive yet present scene for Gino if not for showing he is changed from the person he was in turn 17. There must be a reason why that scene is there, and as sky pointed out before - your smooth mode is the awesomeness indeed, darling - the reading that makes sense the most is 'even people that were so distant before are finding a common ground because of this and that'.

Crappy development? rushed development? could be, most probably is, but it is there and it's proportionate to the small relevance Gino had to the plot, way more proportionate than any change occurred for Cornelia given her starting position.

So, c'mon guys, you can't simply trash away this saying 'it's too small of a change' or asking, to believe that characters actually changed even a little, to have the same development Lelouch had, and I don't see how one can ask for this much, in a series that is so strongly centered on its protagonist and gives a lot less space to anyone else.
Ask for better, okay, but little we have, little we have to go with...
Except the fact that what he tells Suzaku in Turn 24 overturns his little shpeal before, because he's not fighting for any thing other than his own image of Britannia. He's opposing Suzaku/Lelouch's equal oppurtunity empire for his own image, which is more than likely the same one as Charles'.

He changes mighty fast, if we're going by take what little you are given... or he just lied to Kallen and refused to tell her why he was fighting.
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