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Old 2009-03-18, 17:49   Link #4101
bladeofdarkness
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he has morals and standarts
he just doesnt mind breaking them if it gets him what he wants
"the ends justify the means"
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:58   Link #4102
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he has morals and standarts
he just doesnt mind breaking them if it gets him what he wants
"the ends justify the means"
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Morality isn't exactly a quantifiable trait. Lelouch has his morals, he simply lacks qualms about killing, manipulation, etc.
Well it's really just a manner of interpretation, some may find Lelouch's morals just considering who he's up against some may find him despicable because of it.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:59   Link #4103
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And how the hell do those count for her having psychological issues, all you've done is list events which doesn't even explain how they effected her character. If the only clear reason why she's clingy to her brother is the fact that HE'S THE ONLY PERSON SHE CARES FOR IN THE WORLD and the fact that they both had been there for one another since the beginning, she needed him as much as he needed her, but from your interpretation you think that's a bad thing.....
Nunally does care for other people, just not nearly as much.
And where did I say that was a bad thing?
Still, the fact that she wanted to "bear her brother's sins" and feels responsible for his actions speaks for itself.

Quote:
Lelouch is quite sane if you've been paying attention to his actions (and not just Clovis) he seems very much contempt for what he's done and realize as a result the lost he will experience which is most prominent in R2 any insane person wouldn't have moved on but he continued to strive for a cause he considered just and after his revelation that his whole cause was a sham any insane person would have killed themselves right then and there but he decided to fix the distortion he caused in the first place before sealing the deal with his own life in the end. Also I think your confusing morality with insanity which Lelouch doesn't have alot of the former.
Huh. I though Lelouch was more moral than sane when he killed those soldiers.
Because there isn't just "perfectly sane" and "totally psycho". The world isn't black and white - you can't just say "a person with some psychological issues would have killed themselves".
If there is a child that says things like Lelouch did in Sound Drama 0.515 (and in the novel Stage 0, but let's leave that aside here), that's not a very good sign.
If you can kill your own brother without even doing so much as to flinch, that's a bit worrying, too.
If you get off on making people kill themselves and are prone to hysterical laughter, and if you are obsessively looking for you mother's murderer... well, maybe we define sanity different, but not every person with psychological issues is Mao. Every person has a limit, and Lelouch simply had been through too much.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:03   Link #4104
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Morality isn't exactly a quantifiable trait. Lelouch has his morals, he simply lacks qualms about killing, manipulation, etc.
Lelouch does have qualms against it, the thing is that his willing to break them to get what he wants. That's what seperates him from Light, while Light believes that his a God, Lelouch believes that his a demon.

Light is a villain protaganist, while Lelouch is a Byronic Anti-Hero.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:06   Link #4105
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Lelouch does have qualms against it, the thing is that his willing to break them to get what he wants. That's what seperates him from Light, while Light believes that his a God, Lelouch believes that his a demon.

Light is a villain protaganist, while Lelouch is a Byronic Anti-Hero.
Agreed.
And that reminds me...
Light didn't kill himself, either. And I'd say he's definitely not "sane".
Now, he's not the same kind of "not sane" as Lelouch, because Light is a narcissistic sociopath more than anything else (maybe with some depressions in the beginning), but yeah... there are many different kinds of psychological issues, and some are more "severe" than others.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:26   Link #4106
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I'd agree with the Light vs. Lelouch assessment in that the main difference between them is that, while Light believed he wasn't doing anything wrong, Lelouch did what he know was wrong to achieve results.

The thing is though, that Lelouch believed that the good that would arise from his actions would outweigh the harm that he did, which is a very interesting concept. Yes, even though the acts themselves are evil, he believes that good will arise from it, so one could say that even if he is doing bad things, he could believe that what he's doing is right in the long run. Of course your opinion about Lelouch and his actions pretty much comes down to your own beliefs, whether you think it's okay to compromise your values in time of need or not. Personally, I'm leaning towards "not".

Anyway, since yvj seemed to like the idea, I present to you all a unique, yet highly improbable and totally OOC, short fic on the idea that Gino would attempt to inform the world if he was told the truth behind Lelouch's Zero Requiem. Of course I would never submit this to FanFiction.net since everyone would immediately know that I ripped off Watchmen. Plus, it's kind of an inside thing. So without further ado.....oh, and it's in script format. Hope you don't mind.

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:30   Link #4107
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Nobodyman9 what is it with you and Watchmen
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:45   Link #4108
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Nobodyman9 what is it with you and Watchmen
LOL, I don't know. I'm trying to cut down, seriously It'll go away in time.

...of course time is just a man-made construct that - D'OH!
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Old 2009-03-19, 01:02   Link #4109
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And how the hell do those count for her having psychological issues, all you've done is list events which doesn't even explain how they effected her character. If the only clear reason why she's clingy to her brother is the fact that HE'S THE ONLY PERSON SHE CARES FOR IN THE WORLD and the fact that they both had been there for one another since the beginning, she needed him as much as he needed her, but from your interpretation you think that's a bad thing.....


Lelouch is quite sane if you've been paying attention to his actions (and not just Clovis) he seems very much contempt for what he's done and realize as a result the lost he will experience which is most prominent in R2 any insane person wouldn't have moved on but he continued to strive for a cause he considered just and after his revelation that his whole cause was a sham any insane person would have killed themselves right then and there but he decided to fix the distortion he caused in the first place before sealing the deal with his own life in the end. Also I think your confusing morality with insanity which Lelouch doesn't have alot of the former.
Was killing Clovis really necessary though? If he wanted to stay hidden, why reveal himself? To get info on his mother's death? That would imply he has already planned to kill him from the get go so how could he be perfectly sound (better word here than sane I think)? He might be perfectly rational from start to finish but that doesn't make him mentally sound given all the emotional trauma inflicted on him.
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Old 2009-03-19, 08:55   Link #4110
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Killing Clovis makes Lelouch mentally unsound? Lelouch said it himself, is there any reason needed to kill the enemy commander in war? You can liken that act as his declaration of war against Britannia and his father.
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Old 2009-03-19, 09:09   Link #4111
bladeofdarkness
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not to mention that he more then had it coming after what he did in shinjiku
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Old 2009-03-19, 09:26   Link #4112
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not to mention that he more then had it coming after what he did in shinjiku
Although that isn't his reason for doing so.

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Killing Clovis makes Lelouch mentally unsound? Lelouch said it himself, is there any reason needed to kill the enemy commander in war? You can liken that act as his declaration of war against Britannia and his father.
Add in his other acts like the FLEJIA-ing. I guess you can judge for yourself whether you consider him sane by asking whether you consider Shamil Basayev sane.
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Old 2009-03-19, 09:31   Link #4113
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And does that matter? Nothing in the scene with him killing Clovis and his actions after regarding it points to Lelouch as being mentally unsound as his reason. at all. Lelouch wanted information on his mother, wanted to use Clovis to farther his plan by killing him and later coming out as a defender of justice, and as like a declaration of war to Britannia.

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Add in his other acts like the FLEJIA-ing. I guess you can judge for yourself whether you consider him sane by asking whether you consider Shamil Basayev sane.
I'm sorry but what? Was Lelouch using Fleija for the fun of it or something? He was out to make himself the most evil bastard in history, it was for a purpose and part of his calculations for the ZR, which while stupid, still worked and we had a story book peace at the end. Schneizel was the one that you'd have a better chance of labeling as mentally unsound but even then that is debatable.
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Old 2009-03-19, 11:08   Link #4114
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To be honest, killing Clovis was a mistake. Given how superior Lelouch was to him in military tactics, he would've been better off leaving him alive and not drawing attention while he built up power, seeing as he could beat Clovis while chatting to Milly about parties at the same time. Instead he got Cornelia and the Glaston Knights down his throat.

But no, he did not need a specific reason to kill the guy.
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Old 2009-03-19, 11:24   Link #4115
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Killing Clovis makes Lelouch mentally unsound? Lelouch said it himself, is there any reason needed to kill the enemy commander in war? You can liken that act as his declaration of war against Britannia and his father.
Well, maybe our definition of sanity is different, but if a seventeen year old boy is able to splatter the brains of a person he basically grew up with across a room while looking them in the eye, that's a sign for me that something is wrong.
I don't care if Clovis was a bastard. He was Lelouch's brother, and probably one of the last people who would have wished him or Marianne any harm. Alone the fact that Lelouch seemed so sure that he was involved in his mother's death and that he was startled when he found out otherwise is an indication that his hatred for his family exceeds the boundaries of sanity a bit. Not to mention that he might very well have been able to convince Clovis to assist him without any trouble.
Instead, he just broke ties with all of them, except maybe Euphie. They - meaning Clovis and Cornelia and in a rather twisted way even Schneizel - loved him, and Lelouch never stopped to think about that. He just saw his father's children, his enemies; and even though he had his reasons for that, he didn't even consider anything else.
I also doubt Lelouch had great plans when he killed Clovis. His main reason was finding out who killed his mother there, and everything else was a merely useful side-effect.
If Lelouch had been the epitome of sanity otherwise, there might have been a point in arguing. But I just can't see a person who smiles the smile Lelouch does at the end of the first episode as someone who is likely to be completely sane.
And if they refused to eat what they were given as a child because their father told them they were "dead" if they accepted help from others, and if they speak about guards there to prevent them from killing themselves so naturally, and if they have some serious trust issues and can't help but suspect an ulterior motive whenever someone shows them kindness, then I don't care how much reasons they have for their behaviour - it's unlikely that they'll have absolutely no psychological issues later on.
There are a lot of occasion which make me feel that Lelouch being completely sane is impossible. And considering how his life went, he'd have to be a Gary Stu to get away without some serious issues.
Just because Lelouch doesn't seek death doesn't mean he's all that much more sane than Suzaku.
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Old 2009-03-19, 16:45   Link #4116
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Originally Posted by Grey Dawn View Post
To be honest, killing Clovis was a mistake. Given how superior Lelouch was to him in military tactics, he would've been better off leaving him alive and not drawing attention while he built up power, seeing as he could beat Clovis while chatting to Milly about parties at the same time. Instead he got Cornelia and the Glaston Knights down his throat.

But no, he did not need a specific reason to kill the guy.
Killing Clovis and.... the Japanese guy with the crazy hair and the Katana was his statement to the world or rather to Britannia. Declaration of intent, how he is an ally of justice that punishes those that do wrong regardless of race or nationality. He used those two instances to basically say that he hates how Britannia does things but does not condone harming innocents and at the same time demonstrated that not even those in the royal family was beyond his power.

Cornelia was necessary for him as well, facing her taught him what he needed to do to fight Britannia. If Lelouch could not overcome Cornelia then what are his chances against Schneizel and ultimately Charles which was his target?



Nogitsune, your points as they are do not back the claim of Lelouch being insane, rather that he could not look past his own pain and feelings and emphasize with others that care about him. One does not have to be on the extremes of the spectrum of sanity or insanity. Lelouch is in no way the "epitome" of sanity, he has his moments of emotional instability like everyone else, but he is by no means insane because of killing Clovis. Guess what, he even threw up when he remembered it so he was not completely alright about it. -.-
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Old 2009-03-19, 17:01   Link #4117
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Killing Clovis and.... the Japanese guy with the crazy hair and the Katana was his statement to the world or rather to Britannia. Declaration of intent, how he is an ally of justice that punishes those that do wrong regardless of race or nationality. He used those two instances to basically say that he hates how Britannia does things but does not condone harming innocents and at the same time demonstrated that not even those in the royal family was beyond his power.
And I still doubt he really thought about that when he decided to shoot Clovis.

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Nogitsune, your points as they are do not back the claim of Lelouch being insane, rather that he could not look past his own pain and feelings and emphasize with others that care about him. One does not have to be on the extremes of the spectrum of sanity or insanity. Lelouch is in no way the "epitome" of sanity, he has his moments of emotional instability like everyone else, but he is by no means insane because of killing Clovis.
Not merely because of killing Clovis, no.
But if you classify "some pesychological issues" and "not being the most sane person around" as insane, then he definitely is - at least from my point of view.
I never claimed that, though.
I specifially said that Lelouch wasn't Mao, and that he is a very strong-willed person. But as far as I'm concerned, he has a lot more issues than your average seventeen year old boy, which is simply a consequence of the kind of life he lead.
Not even Suzaku is "insane" in the strongest sense of the word, especially during the first season - but that doesn't make him sane.

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Guess what, he even threw up when he remembered it so he was not completely alright about it. -.-
I mentioned that.
And if he hadn't, I'd have indeed been a bit worried... splattered brains just don't look very tasty.
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Old 2009-03-19, 17:20   Link #4118
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Judging his last words to Clovis, I'd beg to differ.

Luckily, we do not classify people who has some nebulous idea like "some psychological issues" and "not being the most sane person around" as insane. simply having more issues then your average seventeen year old boy does not make one insane.

in⋅sane

–adjective
1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.
2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.
3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.

sane
   
–adjective, san⋅er, san⋅est.
1. free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind: a sane person.
2. having or showing reason, sound judgment, or good sense: sane advice.
3. sound; healthy.

Lelouch shows more characteristics of the definition of sane then he does of insane. He has a sound, though admittedly not always healthy mind (Nunally and emotional depression etc), has sound judgement and good sense as well as showing reason in many occasions (again the major exception being the crap involving Nunally). Certain lapses in his mental characteristics do not make him insane.
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Old 2009-03-19, 17:43   Link #4119
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Judging his last words to Clovis, I'd beg to differ.

Luckily, we do not classify people who has some nebulous idea like "some psychological issues" and "not being the most sane person around" as insane. simply having more issues then your average seventeen year old boy does not make one insane.
And I never said that.

Quote:
sane
   
–adjective, san⋅er, san⋅est.
1. free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind: a sane person.
2. having or showing reason, sound judgment, or good sense: sane advice.
3. sound; healthy.
Lelouch shows more characteristics of the definition of sane then he does of insane.
And again, I never said he was insane. A bit "messed up", maybe, but I never looked up the exact definition for that, so I won't insist on it.

Quote:
He has a sound, though admittedly not always healthy mind (Nunally and emotional depression etc)
And I was mostly going for the "healthy" thing.

Quote:
, has sound judgement and good sense as well as showing reason in many occasions (again the major exception being the crap involving Nunally). Certain lapses in his mental characteristics do not make him insane.
Well, if being rational was all that's required to make someone "sane", then a sociopath might very well be the most sane person you'll find.
Not that Lelouch is a sociopath... but really, truly sane?
I don't think so.
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Old 2009-03-19, 20:01   Link #4120
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I'm sorry but what? Was Lelouch using Fleija for the fun of it or something? He was out to make himself the most evil bastard in history, it was for a purpose and part of his calculations for the ZR, which while stupid, still worked and we had a story book peace at the end. Schneizel was the one that you'd have a better chance of labeling as mentally unsound but even then that is debatable.
Where did I say he was using it for fun? You must be sociopathic to a certain extent to carry out murder on such a large scale even if for good reasons.
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