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Old 2009-05-17, 18:47   Link #4941
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Actually I was only referring to R2 19. There probably wouldn't have been any need for "Demon Emperor Lelouch" had that nonsense not occurred in the first place.



Well, if Lelouch is to be held accountable for his sins (which he indeed did for himself), then the rest of the Black Knights also deserve to be called for it. And again, not a rationalization for Lelouch, but that was like the umpteenth time Lelouch had been screwed over by the world.

And Charred Knight, was that you who added in the Nina thing? Even though she was responsible for a lot of deaths, she at least realized what she had done wrong and made up for it somehow with the anti-FLEIJA. But maybe I'm just a little too soft on her.

what were the OOBK's sins ?
aside from turning on lelouch, what exactly did they DO ?
lelouch had (well before ZERO-R) commited 2 massacres of unarmed civilians (in one case, japanese civilians), murdered the leader of toudo's army as bait, led the OOBK into an ambush and then forced them to accept his leadership or die, buried half a city under a landslide, and thats even without getting into the subject of using geass on people left and right

what exactly were the OOBK's sins ?
and please dont give me that bullshit generic "they were terrorists" reply becouse the ones who DEFINED them as terrorists were the britannian empire (who could give the nazi's a run for their money in terms of sheer horribleness)
what did they do ON SCREEN that would be considered evil ?
you forget that the OOBK is composed of the people who are the closest thing to "the good guys" as code geass can produce
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Old 2009-05-17, 18:54   Link #4942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what were the OOBK's sins ?
aside from turning on lelouch, what exactly did they DO ?
lelouch had (before ZERO-R) commited 2 massacres of unarmed civilians (in one case, japanese civilians), murdered the leader of toudo's army as bait, led the OOBK into an ambush and then forced them to accept his leadership or die, buried half a city under a landslide, and thats even without getting into the subject of using geass on people left and right

Blade, honest, drop it with the Euphie thing. It was an accident, Lelouch did try to stop her, and if we want to go with technical details, it was not Lelouch's hand, that was going terminator-mode. I mean, honest.
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:00   Link #4943
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

Blade, honest, drop it with the Euphie thing. It was an accident, Lelouch did try to stop her, and if we want to go with technical details, it was not Lelouch's hand, that was going terminator-mode. I mean, honest.
Jokes are suppose to be funny incorrupts, they shouldn't start massacres.
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:03   Link #4944
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what were the OOBK's sins ?
aside from turning on lelouch, what exactly did they DO ?
lelouch had (well before ZERO-R) commited 2 massacres of unarmed civilians (in one case, japanese civilians), murdered the leader of toudo's army as bait, led the OOBK into an ambush and then forced them to accept his leadership or die, buried half a city under a landslide, and thats even without getting into the subject of using geass on people left and right

what exactly were the OOBK's sins ?
and please dont give me that bullshit generic "they were terrorists" reply becouse the ones who DEFINED them as terrorists were the britannian empire (who could give the nazi's a run for their money in terms of sheer horribleness)
what did they do ON SCREEN that would be considered evil ?
you forget that the OOBK is composed of the people who are the closest thing to "the good guys" as code geass can produce
To be fair, the first massacre was accidental, though of course Lelouch didn't have a shot at explaining that.

What the OOBK were doing was accepting the testimony of an enemy without giving a fair trial, and with little consideration that parts of said testimony were unfairly stacked against Lelouch, jumping straight to planned execution, all without consenting the UFN, who aside from Lelouch were the brain trust of their organization, or even using a little bit of common sense. (Ask Lelouch to Geass himself in order to truthfully answer their questions, and demonstrate the limits of Geass under close scrutiny, which could have been done with Jeremiah and his canceller. Not to mention that they wouldn't be able to shoot him if he had Geassed them into obedience which is what they accused him of doing.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
Jokes are suppose to be funny incorrupts, they shouldn't start massacres.
Ironically it was Euphie who was saying Lelouch was joking, and he was trying to communicate how serious his ability was. He just didn't mean for her to be afflicted by it.
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:11   Link #4945
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Ironically it was Euphie who was saying Lelouch was joking, and he was trying to communicate how serious his ability was. He just didn't mean for her to be afflicted by it.
Yes because killing the Japanese is considered a legit joke
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:23   Link #4946
Narona
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Rising Dragon just showed me that a few minutes ago:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ters/CodeGeass

Quote:
Nice Hat: Nice enough to have its own fan club.
Quote:
While not actually a character, Lelouch's AWESOME hat he has as Emperor has developed quite a fan following.
Is there any other Lelouch's Hat fanclub on the internet, or are they talking about our fanclub XD?
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:24   Link #4947
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
To be fair, the first massacre was accidental, though of course Lelouch didn't have a shot at explaining that.

What the OOBK were doing was accepting the testimony of an enemy without giving a fair trial, and with little consideration that parts of said testimony were unfairly stacked against Lelouch, jumping straight to planned execution, all without consenting the UFN, who aside from Lelouch were the brain trust of their organization, or even using a little bit of common sense. (Ask Lelouch to Geass himself in order to truthfully answer their questions, and demonstrate the limits of Geass under close scrutiny, which could have been done with Jeremiah and his canceller. Not to mention that they wouldn't be able to shoot him if he had Geassed them into obedience which is what they accused him of doing.)
again
what ASIDE FROM TURNING AGINAST LELOUCH
did they do

not giving him a chance to explain himself was mean
but it can be explained rather easily in a rather human way
they didnt WANT to give a chance to explain
they didnt want to hear what he had to say becouse he had well over 40 eps to come clean about it
he chose to hide the truth from them despite commiting things that he KNEW they wouldnt accept
and when the found out they didnt care WHY he did them
simple as that

@Sky
he WAS responsible for it in the end
im not saying he MENT to do it
but he was resposible for it in the end
and its only raised as a counter to azul's arguemnts about the OOBK commiting sins
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:35   Link #4948
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By that same token though a lot of the bad things Lelouch did could be considered "human". Not to mention that if they really wanted an explanation, they should have forced it on him earlier in earnest. But I guess they were too busy earlier agreeing to his MO of getting results.
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:44   Link #4949
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
By that same token though a lot of the bad things Lelouch did could be considered "human". Not to mention that if they really wanted an explanation, they should have forced it on him earlier in earnest. But I guess they were too busy earlier agreeing to his MO of getting results.
how is lelouch's actions "human"
he murders god only knows how many people to get what he wants
they agreed with his MO becouse they didnt KNOW about it
he had been marketing them from day one as the people who protect the weak and oppose the strong
he had them contrast the actions of the JLF in ep 8 becouse they didnt agree with such methods
and meanwhile behind their back he had been carrying out crimes that are not far off from what britannia was commiting

the OOBK learns this fact and deceide to put an end to him for it
they dont give him a chance to explain himself (which i didnt like either) becouse they DONT CARE about his reasons
he crossed too many lines and doesnt even have the excuse of "just following orders" becouse he GAVE the orders
and this of course ignores the fact that giving a man who can kill you with a word a chance to speak out is crazy (especially when you remember they think he's nuts)

and you would notice that you still havent pointed out anything ELSE they did
only that they turned on lelouch
and that somehow makes the "bad guys" despite the fact that they fully believed they were executing a monster
THAT is why lelouch has the worst leather pants
becouse the sheetr act of standing up to him is preceived as wrong
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:53   Link #4950
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again
what ASIDE FROM TURNING AGINAST LELOUCH
did they do
Aside from the fact that before he came along they were common terrorists stealing a canister of poison gas?

Let's see:
* The JLF, while not technically Tohdoh, took and murdered hostages essentially for the lulz. Even if we count the guy as rogue, Tohdoh is still upset that he was killed.
* They're shown to be ok with burying Narita, and the JLF, simply because they beat the Britannians. Only Ohgi actually cares about using them as pawns, which I shall point out as hypocritical later on.
* Most of their time with the Black Knights is relatively sin-free, but come season 2 you see a disturbing trend that these people do not give a shit about the world outside Japan. Tohdoh actually considers ditching Zero, before having a decent reason to, once they have Japan back. Ohgi, in the midst of being a traitor by siding with his Britannian wench (no offense to Villetta, she was doing her own thing, but from the outside that's how it comes across), decides to buy back Japan with Lelouch's life. It never occurs to him to discuss this with the other leaders of the Black Knights and the UFN like Xingke and Kaguya.
* Then Ohgi proves himself a hypocrite by using Kallen to bait Lelouch, in a move that, Geassed or not, will pretty much force her to defend her commanding officer and die with him. For all his bitching about pawns, he's quick to make Kallen one.

I suppose the stuff following this doesn't really count toward the betrayal, but oh well.
* After that's over, they lie about what they did, get caught, and don't get punished for it.
* Then Lelouch offers to join the UFN, and they stick him in a box and throw rather unreasonable stipulations at him just because they assume he's trying to be bad. He is, but they can't know for sure. They begged to be attacked with that.

The Black Knights are hardly sin-free, they just get off because Lelouch is calling the shots most of the time. Did anyone object to that cult massacre in earnest? Nope, just complained and followed orders.
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Old 2009-05-17, 19:54   Link #4951
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Come on, lets talk about the important stuff! Wheres this "new" rumor about sequel / new code geass property? I mean, srsly.

And Responsibility? Eh, in Code Geass, responsibility is a very difficult to try and determine, because ultimately, the blame for much of the events can be put on many, seperate people & situations. Much like World War 1 for instance. While it was an assassination that "sparked" the war, it was a culmination over close to 100 years of hostility & snide international actions that collectively share the blame.

The Geass may have been used by Lelouch, but ultimatly some blame can go to The Emporer, C.C., Euphy herself, etc. The list goes on.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:00   Link #4952
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Aside from the fact that before he came along they were common terrorists stealing a canister of poison gas?

Let's see:
* The JLF, while not technically Tohdoh, took and murdered hostages essentially for the lulz. Even if we count the guy as rogue, Tohdoh is still upset that he was killed.
* They're shown to be ok with burying Narita, and the JLF, simply because they beat the Britannians. Only Ohgi actually cares about using them as pawns, which I shall point out as hypocritical later on.
* Most of their time with the Black Knights is relatively sin-free, but come season 2 you see a disturbing trend that these people do not give a shit about the world outside Japan. Tohdoh actually considers ditching Zero, before having a decent reason to, once they have Japan back. Ohgi, in the midst of being a traitor by siding with his Britannian wench (no offense to Villetta, she was doing her own thing, but from the outside that's how it comes across), decides to buy back Japan with Lelouch's life. It never occurs to him to discuss this with the other leaders of the Black Knights and the UFN like Xingke and Kaguya.
* Then Ohgi proves himself a hypocrite by using Kallen to bait Lelouch, in a move that, Geassed or not, will pretty much force her to defend her commanding officer and die with him. For all his bitching about pawns, he's quick to make Kallen one.

I suppose the stuff following this doesn't really count toward the betrayal, but oh well.
* After that's over, they lie about what they did, get caught, and don't get punished for it.
* Then Lelouch offers to join the UFN, and they stick him in a box and throw rather unreasonable stipulations at him just because they assume he's trying to be bad. He is, but they can't know for sure. They begged to be attacked with that.

The Black Knights are hardly sin-free, they just get off because Lelouch is calling the shots most of the time. Did anyone object to that cult massacre in earnest? Nope, just complained and followed orders.
You forget the fact that they were essentially using Zero's status and have accepted the fact that they were pawns to him in Turn 5
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:00   Link #4953
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Aside from the fact that before he came along they were common terrorists stealing a canister of poison gas?

Let's see:
* The JLF, while not technically Tohdoh, took and murdered hostages essentially for the lulz. Even if we count the guy as rogue, Tohdoh is still upset that he was killed.
* They're shown to be ok with burying Narita, and the JLF, simply because they beat the Britannians. Only Ohgi actually cares about using them as pawns, which I shall point out as hypocritical later on.
* Most of their time with the Black Knights is relatively sin-free, but come season 2 you see a disturbing trend that these people do not give a shit about the world outside Japan. Tohdoh actually considers ditching Zero, before having a decent reason to, once they have Japan back. Ohgi, in the midst of being a traitor by siding with his Britannian wench (no offense to Villetta, she was doing her own thing, but from the outside that's how it comes across), decides to buy back Japan with Lelouch's life. It never occurs to him to discuss this with the other leaders of the Black Knights and the UFN like Xingke and Kaguya.
* Then Ohgi proves himself a hypocrite by using Kallen to bait Lelouch, in a move that, Geassed or not, will pretty much force her to defend her commanding officer and die with him. For all his bitching about pawns, he's quick to make Kallen one.

I suppose the stuff following this doesn't really count toward the betrayal, but oh well.
* After that's over, they lie about what they did, get caught, and don't get punished for it.
* Then Lelouch offers to join the UFN, and they stick him in a box and throw rather unreasonable stipulations at him just because they assume he's trying to be bad. He is, but they can't know for sure. They begged to be attacked with that.

The Black Knights are hardly sin-free, they just get off because Lelouch is calling the shots most of the time. Did anyone object to that cult massacre in earnest? Nope, just complained and followed orders.
Thanks for the clarifying. My memory was a little hazy on some of the details.

And what I meant by "human" was that he had very personal, emotional reasons, even though the actions themselves were highly depraved. (i. e. the Geass Directorate massacre that was triggered by Lelouch flipping out over Rolo murdering Shirley)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kir44n
The Geass may have been used by Lelouch, but ultimatly some blame can go to The Emporer, C.C., Euphy herself, etc. The list goes on.
Euphie? Where? She was totally innocent. Her only flaw was her naivete.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:03   Link #4954
bladeofdarkness
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they objected to the JLF killing hostages (and even toudo was upset THAT HE DID THIS, and never wanted revenge agasint eh OOBK for stopping him)
they were not the ones who actually buried narita (lelouch gets the credit for it)
and failing to care enough about that (in your mind) is not an actual SIN (lelouch basiclly LED THEM INTO A TRAP, so they have the right to be pleased about surviving it)
everything else is the events of their betryal for lelouch
which i already pointed out, was justified in nature, but very poorly executed in the methods they chose to use

@kir44n
you did NOT just blame euphie for what happened did you ?

@FruitsPunchSamurai
would they have agreed to it if they knew the REAL reason he left them in the middle of the black rebellion ?
and would they have agreed to follow him if the knew about the things he had done ? (the answer to that question is shown fairly clearly in ep 19)
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:06   Link #4955
kir44n
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Euphie? Where? She was totally innocent. Her only flaw was her naivete.
And Naivete in the politics of the Code Geass is a fatal character flaw, as it is exhibited by both Euphy AND Shirley. And in Euphy's case, it also extended to a rather distressing world stage event.

In Code Geass, at certain points, almost all parties are to blame in one respect or another.

Apparently I am going out on a limb with this position. so I will further clarify. I personally do no suffer fools well, especially fools with power. Euphy, as sweet & caring as she was, was a fool with power. Her desires, while kind, ultimately led her down the path of her & many other individuals deaths. She may not have been explicitly and directly responsible for it, she bears some of the blame as well.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:08   Link #4956
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by kir44n View Post
And Naivete in the politics of the Code Geass is a fatal character flaw, as it is exhibited by both Euphy AND Shirley. And in Euphy's case, it also extended to a rather distressing world stage event.

In Code Geass, at certain points, almost all parties are to blame in one respect or another.
she makes an attempt to solve the conflict peacefully and invites the man who is her ENEMY to join her
he shows up and ends up making her a mass murderer against her will
and this is somehow HER fault
trying to find a peaceful end to the conflict is NOT a BAD THING
euphies only crime is not remembering the age old saying of "no good deed goes unpunished"
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:11   Link #4957
FruitsPunchSamurai
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Originally Posted by kir44n View Post
Come on, lets talk about the important stuff! Wheres this "new" rumor about sequel / new code geass property? I mean, srsly.
Dude, I would get off that since what we have so far is a vague message we got six months ago about interest in continuing the series and nothing from the creators stating their involvement. So let's just say everything at this point are rumors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kir44n View Post
And Responsibility? Eh, in Code Geass, responsibility is a very difficult to try and determine, because ultimately, the blame for much of the events can be put on many, seperate people & situations. Much like World War 1 for instance. While it was an assassination that "sparked" the war, it was a culmination over close to 100 years of hostility & snide international actions that collectively share the blame.

The Geass may have been used by Lelouch, but ultimatly some blame can go to The Emporer, C.C., Euphy herself, etc. The list goes on.
This is ridiculous, why not blame the creators of geass in the first place. Fact is Lelouch was responsible for the incident he claimed it himself whatever his intentions were (we all know weren't bad) he essentially didn't make her the victim in that situation to gain the populace approval and didn't make the situation with Suzaku any better either.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:14   Link #4958
kir44n
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Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
Dude, I would get off that since what we have so far is a vague message we got six months ago about interest in continuing the series and nothing from the creators stating their involvement. So let's just say everything at this point are rumors.



This is ridiculous, why not blame the creators of geass in the first place. Fact is Lelouch was responsible for the incident he claimed it himself whatever his intentions were (we all know weren't bad) he essentially didn't make her the victim in that situation to gain the populace approval and didn't make the situation with Suzaku any better either.
And this is what I am attempting to ascertain. The last time I was active on these boards (several months ago), there was a rumor of new property. I was attempting to find out if the rumors mentioned a few days ago were in fact new rumors, or rehashed rumors we've heard previously.

I do put some partial blame on the creators of Geass. Again, it is not only the spark the is repsonsible for the explosion, but also every single grain inside the powder keg. My argument is that blame is not nearly as arbitrary and short sighted as many on the board would like to indicate
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:20   Link #4959
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
they objected to the JLF killing hostages (and even toudo was upset THAT HE DID THIS, and never wanted revenge agasint eh OOBK for stopping him)
they were not the ones who actually buried narita (lelouch gets the credit for it)
and failing to care enough about that (in your mind) is not an actual SIN (lelouch basiclly LED THEM INTO A TRAP, so they have the right to be pleased about surviving it)
everything else is the events of their betryal for lelouch
which i already pointed out, was justified in nature, but very poorly executed in the methods they chose to use
And ultimately it's the methods that I'm condemning them for, which led to the betrayal itself. Not to mention of course Ohgi's own actions beginning mid-R2. I would so not vote for him.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:21   Link #4960
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
they objected to the JLF killing hostages (and even toudo was upset THAT HE DID THIS, and never wanted revenge agasint eh OOBK for stopping him)
they were not the ones who actually buried narita (lelouch gets the credit for it)
and failing to care enough about that (in your mind) is not an actual SIN (lelouch basiclly LED THEM INTO A TRAP, so they have the right to be pleased about surviving it)
everything else is the events of their betryal for lelouch
which i already pointed out, was justified in nature, but very poorly executed in the methods they chose to use
They went along with burying Narita, and they knew full well what he was doing. Only Kallen is sorry for the lives lost. As for failing to care, you accuse Lelouch of the same thing. He does not care who he hurts and neither do the Knights, as long as they get their due. Lelouch led them into a trap, but they still decided to follow him there, and Ohgi knew it was a trap, too. He didn't speak up until it was too late.
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