AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-05-19, 14:44   Link #5001
Betteroffer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i am not questioning that the way they handled the betrayal part was both stupid and ass-hole-ish
my biggest gripes about it is selling him out, and using kallen as bait (not giving him a change to speak is a RESULT of selling him out)
but they would have turned on him based soley on the evidence even if shnizel hadnt promised them jack

as for choosing a replacement zero
would it matter so much when you remember that the guy who is their ENEMY knows that its bullshit
shnizel could expose the truth fairly quickly (he does have a video of lelouch as zero admiting the "truth" of having used them after all)
better to have people believe that he died as a hero then risk shnizel blowing the lid on the whole thing if he feels like it

can you quote the changes you made about the "sins" part please
Schneizel knew, but one could argue he might actually keep tight lipped on it given his whole "don't crush their hopes" MO. Probably unlikely, but with Schneizel, you never know.

And actually, as the cries of people on Horai proved, Zero's death was a huge morale dropper for the UFN, which in turn can have drastic effects on things from military, to the economy, to some people looking to turn traitor to save themselves.

And even if Schneizel did try to expose a false Zero, his video only had Lellouch and Kallen on it (and Shinkirou possibly, but they claimed it was stolen when Rolo took it and no one seemed to question the Demon King having it, so they could say Britannia stole it, found it and used it, or copied its appearance), so they could claim that Kallen was forced to help them stage the video during her capture, or that it was people using those masks Sayoko used. Besides, exposing a prince of their own country as a traitor wouldn't really do wonders for Britannian morale either.

And I just made a seperate response to your response. It should be on page 249 of this thread.

@ Levy: Not with the advent of FLEIJA they wouldn't. Even then, the reason they were able to be equal to Britannia during the Damocles battle was because Lelouch had fractured his military by putting down many rebeling nobles and their forces, and Schneizel destroying Pendragon crippled their infrastructure. Britannia controlled just over two thirds of the globe at the time.

In a way that makes the attempt to kill Lelouch all the sadder. They were essentially doomed on a military level offensively and defensively, so killing Lelouch was a sore attempt at a parting shot against something.

And thanks

An idea I would love to see would be that Charles isn't standing around at Kamine island for...whatever after the Tokyo battle and betrayal of Lelouch. He could use Lelouch's 'pretend to join the UFN' plan to focus the UFN on himself and take it over in one fell swoop, especially if he planned to have Schneizel come to the meeting with him and only used THAT to distract Schneizel's focus while his own men/KOR snuck onto Damocles.

Imagine him staring down Kaguya or the TV monitors and declaring that there was no longer an 'earth,' there was only Britannia.
Betteroffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-19, 16:32   Link #5002
Bionicman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
your basic argment is flawed by saying they sided with Schneizel over lelouch
they didnt choose to support Schneizel over lelouch, nor was there ever a possibility of them joining lelouch against Schneizel (DURING THE FINAL ARC)
lelouch attacked them took their leaders hostage and conquered their country
they were going to war with lelouch NO MATTER WHAT
if Schneizel hadnt blown up pendragon they wouldnt have even BOTHERED to contact him and join forces aginst lelouch
but they, the black knights, were going to fight lelouch regardless
lelouch was trying to conquer the world (his words)
and since he already controls britannia which is HALF the world - guess who that other half is
it wasnt the case of the lesser evil (enemy of my enemy is more like it)
and there was no way for them to agree with what lelouch was doing becouse he was doing it TO THEM
they were at war with lelouch themselves (tecniclly they were always at war with him, since he is britannia)
sitting on the sidelines was NOT POSSIBLE when you are one of the only two sides of the conflict
lelouch wasnt being evil to defeat a greater evil in their eyes
he was being evil BECOUSE HE WAS EVIL and the ones he was trying to defeat were THEY THEMSELVES (he made it a point to have them think this)
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was referring to when Lelouch was leading the Black Knights. They claimed that they ousted Lelouch because 1) they didn't agree with the morality of his actions, and 2) he was in it for his own interests, rather than the interests of Japan. By working with Schneizel later on, they did what they claimed to be so upset about Lelouch doing when he was their leader (doing immoral things for a greater cause). And that they were so upset by the fact that Lelouch may not have cared about Japan's best interests, it's strange how they later ally themselves with Schneizel, someone who clearly doesn't care about the best interests of Japan. Also, I don't see how letting someone give your army orders during a huge battle isn't siding with him (more below).
Quote:
it wasnt lelouch Vs Schneizel with the OOBK on the fence
it was lelouch Vs the OOBK and the UFN
Schneizel was the one hiding in cambodia and basiclly sitting on the fence
he wasnt a side to this conflict, and he wasnt the one who had come under attack from lelouch
the black knights were.
hence your argument is flawed
if you dont like the fact that they allied with Schneizel against an enemy who attacked them first and whom they were going to fight ANYWAY thats your choice
but you completely misunderstand the situation if you think that the two sides in this conflict are either lelouch or Schneizel
the two sides consist of lelouch and britannia on one side and the OOBK and the UFN on the other
the OOBK only contact Schneizel becouse the man demonstates (very VERY clearly) that he ALSO doesnt accept lelouch
but he isnt an actual independednt side to this conflict (unless the damocles is renamed the democratic republic of Schneizel)
That doesn't seem to fit the facts. First, Schneizel appeared and challenged Lelouch in the same episode that Lelouch kidnapped the UFN leaders (before Schneizel had the support of the Black Knights), and his threats were backed up by the Damocles, making him as much (if not more) of a threat to Lelouch than the Black Knights. Second, as I said, Schneizel was effectively commanding the Black Knights during the final battle. The Black Knights may or may not have been the de jure authority, but Schneizel was clearly the de facto leader. At one point, Schneizel even mentioned sacrificing the lives of Black Knight soldiers to further his plans, and the Black Knight leaders still accepted his authority.

The point here is that Schneizel made it clear that he didn't care if the Black Knights died as long as he got his victory, and yet the Black Knights fought for him. They didn't like that Lelouch may not have had Japan's interests at heart, but then they ally themselves with someone who 1) oppressed and bombed their country, and 2) would probably do it again after Lelouch was defeated. That last point really bugs me. If the Black Knights defeated Lelouch, then what? They're weakened by the battle, and meanwhile Schneizel has Damocles, and could attempt to retake control of Britannia (he'd be popular with the deposed nobles, for one). What the Black Knights did was dubious both strategically and morally.
Bionicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-19, 17:12   Link #5003
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicman View Post
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was referring to when Lelouch was leading the Black Knights. They claimed that they ousted Lelouch because 1) they didn't agree with the morality of his actions, and 2) he was in it for his own interests, rather than the interests of Japan. By working with Schneizel later on, they did what they claimed to be so upset about Lelouch doing when he was their leader (doing immoral things for a greater cause). And that they were so upset by the fact that Lelouch may not have cared about Japan's best interests, it's strange how they later ally themselves with Schneizel, someone who clearly doesn't care about the best interests of Japan. Also, I don't see how letting someone give your army orders during a huge battle isn't siding with him (more below).
they oust lelouch becouse he is simply using them for his own goals (and using geass to manipulate them, or at least so they think)
they oust him becouse they believe he is a monster who murders unarmed women and children if it serves his purpose (he actually did do that)
they later ally themselves with Schneizel against lelouch when lelouch takes over britannia and continues the war against them, re-conquers japan, and takes the UFN leaders hostage
Schneizel may not care about japans best interests as much as his OWN interests
but japans best interests and indeed the UFN's best interests at the time were to NOT be conquered by lelouch
which is why they attacked lelouch with all the force they could gain, which at the time included an alliance with Schneizel
they let Schneizel command the actual battle in the field becouse he
A)a master stratigist on par with lelouch
B)gave them his word that in exchange for commanding the troops he would refrain from using the damocles (they asked him for help, then told him not to use the only real weapon he had, they had to give him something)

Quote:
That doesn't seem to fit the facts. First, Schneizel appeared and challenged Lelouch in the same episode that Lelouch kidnapped the UFN leaders (before Schneizel had the support of the Black Knights), and his threats were backed up by the Damocles, making him as much (if not more) of a threat to Lelouch than the Black Knights. Second, as I said, Schneizel was effectively commanding the Black Knights during the final battle. The Black Knights may or may not have been the de jure authority, but Schneizel was clearly the de facto leader. At one point, Schneizel even mentioned sacrificing the lives of Black Knight soldiers to further his plans, and the Black Knight leaders still accepted his authority.

The point here is that Schneizel made it clear that he didn't care if the Black Knights died as long as he got his victory, and yet the Black Knights fought for him. They didn't like that Lelouch may not have had Japan's interests at heart, but then they ally themselves with someone who 1) oppressed and bombed their country, and 2) would probably do it again after Lelouch was defeated. That last point really bugs me. If the Black Knights defeated Lelouch, then what? They're weakened by the battle, and meanwhile Schneizel has Damocles, and could attempt to retake control of Britannia (he'd be popular with the deposed nobles, for one). What the Black Knights did was dubious both strategically and morally.
lelouch took over britannia exactly BECOUSE he wanted to corner Schneizel
before lelouch took over britannia Schneizel was on britannia's side (he IS britannia's prime minister) and possesing the damocles
on the other side of the board was the UFN and the OOBK
lelouch took over britannia and suddenyl Schneizel is out of a job and cut off from britannia (he cant show his face, lelouch would kill him)
so Schneizel sits on the side lines to watch what happens next
lelouch shows up to the UFN meeting under the pretext of peace and the makes his move turning himself into the enemy of the world (in practice its mostly the UFN at the time)
he does this to lure Schneizel into making HIS move against him by using the damocles against pendragon (as suzaku said, its what he expected)

Schneizel did attack lelouch at the same time as lelouch taking the UFN leaders hostage
but he did so IN RESPONSE to lelouch doing so
and in fact lelouch did it TO MAKE HIM DO THAT
it keeps him from attacking the targets lelouch actually DOES care about in japan (kallen, ashford)
Schneizel for his part plays along with lelouch's plan becouse he had his own card up his sleve (nunnaly)

Schneizel blows up pendragon and makes it clear to EVERYONE that he doesnt accept lelouch as emperor
this helps the OOBK by freezing britannia's goverment works and helping them to balance the fight
the OOBK then turn to Schneizel for an alliance becosue Schneizel had already proved himself as an enemy of lelouch
had Schneizel NOT made his move they wouldnt have bothered to contact him (he IS britannian after all)
but they turned to him becouse he had proved that, whatever else he might be, he is lelouch's enemy same as them
and they needed all the help they could get at the time (case in point, they let gino join them)

the damocles is NOT a bigger threat then the OOBK
the OOBK at the time was made up of the armies of every UFN member state
meaning its a world wide army of tens if not millions of soldiers
the damocles is one weapon system
if not for its ability to reach high enough that it cant be attacked it wouldnt be all that much of a threat (it cant fire and keep its shields up at the same time)
the only reason lelouch was able to use it to make the world surrender is that he had control of the damocles AND the britannian army (hence, the OOBK no longer had the power to oppose him)

and again
the OOBK turned leadership over to Schneizel for the SOLE REASON of keeping him from using the damocles (his only real weapon)
he was NOT the actual leader of the UFN or the OOBK and only commanded them during that battle becosue they agreed to LET him

at no point did Schneizel mention sacrificing the lives of OOBK soldeirs to THEM
he did say that killing the UFN leaders (who have already been replaced) was a small price to pay for getting world peace by removing lelouch
and agreed to xing-ke request NOT to do it (which is why they gave him command)

Schneizel had always been shown as a noble demon
he never attacked or opressed their country
he was supporing euphie's SAZ
and he was the one behind the cease fire after the fljia in ep 18 (and came HIMSELF to show them proof against lelouch)

the point that really bugs you is simple
what happens AFTER they get rid of lelouch is irrelevent if lelouch wins, conquers the world and executes them all for opposing him
they faced lelouch beocuse lelouch was the bigger threat
the allied with Schneizel becouse they needed all the help they could get and Schneizel had proved that he was also lelouch's enemy
they had no reason to think that Schneizel would attack them
the man HELPED THEM
he warned them about lelouch
the dude was the picture of what a benevolent britannian emperor would look like (compared to the monster they were fighting ATM)
__________________
bladeofdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-19, 17:13   Link #5004
incorrupts
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greece
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to incorrupts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicman View Post
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was referring to when Lelouch was leading the Black Knights. They claimed that they ousted Lelouch because 1) they didn't agree with the morality of his actions, and 2) he was in it for his own interests, rather than the interests of Japan. By working with Schneizel later on, they did what they claimed to be so upset about Lelouch doing when he was their leader (doing immoral things for a greater cause). And that they were so upset by the fact that Lelouch may not have cared about Japan's best interests, it's strange how they later ally themselves with Schneizel, someone who clearly doesn't care about the best interests of Japan. Also, I don't see how letting someone give your army orders during a huge battle isn't siding with him (more below).
That is exactly it. This is called, "pushing back, because i do not have a plan, and actually, i have no idea what to do now."
BK, did not want to sit in the dark-non-move-corner, and they pretended to do something. They are just going back, in what they have said, their ideals and they are being total naive, trusting Schneizel, of all people.
Like i have said, BK react wildly irrational, after Turn 19.
incorrupts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 11:19   Link #5005
darthfury78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Code Geass R2, in my opinion, was the biggest WTF season of all time. When I compare it to other animes that I have watched, Season 1 and Season 2 were vastly different series that almost contrast one another. For example, why wouldn't Lelouch tell Suzaku that he accidently geassed Euphemia to kill the Japanese? The Season 1 version of Lelouch would have explained his reasons to Suzaku. This could have cleared up the misunderstanding that led to the demise of their friendship.

Second, how on Earth would the Black Knights fall for such a lame explanation from Schniezel regarding the identity of Zero so easily, even with the recording. As a matter of fact, why would Lelouch ever go to the shrine to meet Suzaku without having the area inspected first to see if there were any spies in the area to entrap him. In addition, why would Lelouch reveal to Suzaku that he got his memories back and ask him to protect Nunnally when he could have done that himself.

Third, since the Black Knights knew about Lelouch's geass, why didn't they suspect that C.C. had one as well? She is the witch who gave Lelouch his powers. These Black Knights appeared to have forgotten who gave them the power to fight Britannia. And it had nothing to do with the geass. Rather Lelouch's leadership, which doesn't require the geass, except to use it for his groups' advantage against Britannia.

Forth, it seems that this season was about destroying Lelouch x Suzaku from the world. Sorta like a childhood promise that they made to create a peaceful world. This is a contradiction to the commitment that both of them made to free Japan from Britannia, in the first season. When did this series degressed into an another Gundam free for all?

Why would Orgi, all of a sudden, develop such a deep hatred for Zero/Lelouch? I am sure Villetta must have told him everything about Lelouch's geass. If that was the case, why didn't she tell him about C.C. as the one who grants the powers of the Geass?

As for Dietard, I simply can't see why he would turn against Lelouch to join up with Schniezel and Cornelia, since he was considered a traitor to Britannia. He had a lot to gain by seeing the Black Knights/ UFN win the war than to follow a man who would kill him when the opportunity arrived, which it did. The Dietard from the first season would not have left the Black Knights to join Schniezel because it would have been suicide to do so.

In conclusion, I have to believe that Code Geass and Code Geass R2 are two completely different series. Depite what the creators have said, they were known for giving contradictional information since they are not allow to say any negative information regarding the second season.

I fould it very tough to believe that Lelouch actually believed that to be killed by Suzaku/Zero would make the world forget about sins that was committed. Thus, his death would make the world into a peaceful place, while Suzaku spends the rest of his life hidding behind the mask of Zero to atone for killing his father. Whatever the planned ending was to have been, in the original format that was aimed at the latenight audience, I will stand by my personal belief that Zero's Requiem wasn't one of them, except to bring an unplanned story to a complete stop.
darthfury78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 12:29   Link #5006
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
I can say that Diethard was all about following the most interesting story. He thought the Britannian status quo was dull, and became excited at the idea of Zero's revolution. Finally, he went insane with glee over Schneizel's idea of ruling the world through fear.

Diethard was never about fighting the status quo. He was only interested in documenting the changing of the guards of history, and in a few cases, manipulating things (i. e. lying that Zero wanted Suzaku killed to Kallen).

Regarding Lelouch and Suzaku, it was apparently because Lelouch didn't like making excuses to the people he cared for, or appearing to make light of serious things, when it came to him not telling the truth about Euphie. It would have made sense for Lelouch to tell him that the whole thing was an accident, but how would Suzaku have taken it?
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 12:34   Link #5007
FruitsPunchSamurai
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Los Angelas, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I can say that Diethard was all about following the most interesting story. He thought the Britannian status quo was dull, and became excited at the idea of Zero's revolution. Finally, he went insane with glee over Schneizel's idea of ruling the world through fear.

Diethard was never about fighting the status quo. He was only interested in documenting the changing of the guards of history, and in a few cases, manipulating things (i. e. lying that Zero wanted Suzaku killed to Kallen).

Regarding Lelouch and Suzaku, it was apparently because Lelouch didn't like making excuses to the people he cared for, or appearing to make light of serious things, when it came to him not telling the truth about Euphie. It would have made sense for Lelouch to tell him that the whole thing was an accident, but how would Suzaku have taken it?
We will never know now would we, he essentially knew everything about Geass at that point (thanks to V.V.) and Lelouch wasn't making the situation better so you can't blame him for acting the way he did, I mean if your best friend lied to your face about killing your lover and did cover it up by saying it was in the past over and done, how would YOU react?
FruitsPunchSamurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 12:53   Link #5008
Xander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
The Season 1 version of Lelouch would have explained his reasons to Suzaku.
It seems we saw very different versions of season one.

I didn't have that impression at all. For one, consider the cliffhanger we ended season one on and how Lelouch actually did the opposite of what you're assuming.

That's enough to prove that your assumption is not very accurate, in my opinion.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, why would Lelouch ever go to the shrine to meet Suzaku without having the area inspected first to see if there were any spies in the area to entrap him. In addition, why would Lelouch reveal to Suzaku that he got his memories back and ask him to protect Nunnally when he could have done that himself.
Because knowing that Charles was in fact alive and not trapped in the other realm after their confrontation, he could use Nunnally against Lelouch behind the scenes. In fact, that's what Suzaku had been previously instructed to do, which meant that Lelouch's fears were justified.

Suzaku could have, if he wanted to do so, directly threaten Nunnally and extort Lelouch into stopping the war or worse, which he probably would have. If anything, Lelouch's appeal to Suzaku was a way to proactively prevent such an outcome.

As for having the area inspected, I think you're ignoring that the place was a neutral zone of sorts due to its emotional significance to both Suzaku and Lelouch. It's not like Lelouch always inspected each and every place beforehand either, in both seasons, so you're assuming too much.


Quote:
Third, since the Black Knights knew about Lelouch's geass, why didn't they suspect that C.C. had one as well?
I don't believe they ever saw C.C. do anything that would require a Geass, understood as a form of hypnosis.

Quote:
Forth, it seems that this season was about destroying Lelouch x Suzaku from the world. Sorta like a childhood promise that they made to create a peaceful world. This is a contradiction to the commitment that both of them made to free Japan from Britannia, in the first season.
Not at all, considering how events developed, I think it's fair enough. Unless you expect everything to remain static regardless of the circumstances.

Quote:
I am sure Villetta must have told him everything about Lelouch's geass. If that was the case, why didn't she tell him about C.C. as the one who grants the powers of the Geass?
It's not clear how much she actually knew about C.C. and her connection to Geass other than being in charge of capturing her by using Lelouch as bait, IIRC. In fact, I think that would be more information than what she would ever need...telling too many people in the Britannian forces that C.C. can grant Geass powers would actually be a recipe for disaster since they'd be tempted to make a contract with her. I don't think Villetta needed to know.

Quote:
As for Dietard, I simply can't see why he would turn against Lelouch to join up with Schniezel and Cornelia, since he was considered a traitor to Britannia. He had a lot to gain by seeing the Black Knights/ UFN win the war than to follow a man who would kill him when the opportunity arrived, which it did. The Dietard from the first season would not have left the Black Knights to join Schniezel because it would have been suicide to do so.
Diethard actually tried to defend Zero during the betrayal until the tide had turned against him. It seems you have overlooked this.

After this failed, Lelouch was thought to be done for and Diethard just stuck with the winning side, as it were. Seeing Schneizel as a new "rising star" who he could latch on to isn't exactly that unusual, if you accept Diethard had no loyalties to the Japanese cause per se.

Quote:
In conclusion, I have to believe that Code Geass and Code Geass R2 are two completely different series. Depite what the creators have said, they were known for giving contradictional information since they are not allow to say any negative information regarding the second season.
That might be the case, but not necessarily for the reasons you've listed.

Quote:
I fould it very tough to believe that Lelouch actually believed that to be killed by Suzaku/Zero would make the world forget about sins that was committed. Thus, his death would make the world into a peaceful place, while Suzaku spends the rest of his life hidding behind the mask of Zero to atone for killing his father.
I think you're missing the larger points here and, in addition, not considering their development towards making that decision, but then again Zero Requiem has been discussed a hundred times already in much more detail so I won't nitpick anything right now. I will always accept that the plan was quite a bit contrived from a logical perspective, sure, but I have almost no problems believing that both characters could agree to it within the provided context.
Xander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 13:00   Link #5009
darthfury78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I can say that Diethard was all about following the most interesting story. He thought the Britannian status quo was dull, and became excited at the idea of Zero's revolution. Finally, he went insane with glee over Schneizel's idea of ruling the world through fear.

Diethard was never about fighting the status quo. He was only interested in documenting the changing of the guards of history, and in a few cases, manipulating things (i. e. lying that Zero wanted Suzaku killed to Kallen).
The Diethard from Season 1 would not have joined up with Schniezel, story or no story, because he was already considered a traitor by the state. It would have been suicide to do so because if Schniezel was successful, he would have killed Diethard and betrayed the Black Knights/UFN. So I believed that Diethard's character was changed, along with everything else for Code Geass R2.

I'll will agree that we will never as to whether or not Lelouch would have really told Suzaku the truth about why he killed Euphie. Either way, I felt it might have been possible to have seen a development into Cecile x Suzaku relationship. Perhaps, Cecile could have calm Suzaku's nerves with her deliptable charm because she could have helped to heal Suzaku's emotions over the loss of Euphemia's death.
darthfury78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 13:18   Link #5010
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
During the Kururugi Shrine meeting, Suzaku could tell Lelouch had been lying though, which presumably included the part about the Euphemia geassing being a deliberate action that he did. (He also took the fall for Shirley's murder, even though that was all Rolo.) I still consider the possibility that Suzaku was either told or somehow figured out the truth on his own during the timeskip between the World of C incident with Charles/Marianne and when they took over the throne, since they had once again become best friends.

I will agree that Lelouch screwed up by saying that what happened to Euphemia was in the past, where he should have instead said he could explain later, but apparently the creative team wanted to draw the situation out into a massive cliffhanger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander
Diethard actually tried to defend Zero during the betrayal until the tide had turned against him. It seems you have overlooked this.

After this failed, Lelouch was thought to be done for and Diethard just stuck with the winning side, as it were. Seeing Schneizel as a new "rising star" who he could latch on to isn't exactly that unusual, if you accept Diethard had no loyalties to the Japanese cause per se.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78
The Diethard from Season 1 would not have joined up with Schniezel, story or no story, because he was already considered a traitor by the state. It would have been suicide to do so because if Schniezel was successful, he would have killed Diethard and betrayed the Black Knights/UFN. So I believed that Diethard's character was changed, along with everything else for Code Geass R2.
None of it contradicts Diethard's mentality of striking when and where the iron's hot, and Schneizel, being the type to pay no mind to turncoats as long as they don't get in the way of his plans, allowed Diethard to join him, and Diethard was only too happy to be part of Schneizel side once he saw what he'd been cooking, back in R2 23, which also led to Cornelia rejecting Schneizel.

Last edited by azul120; 2009-05-20 at 13:35.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 14:04   Link #5011
darthfury78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
During the Kururugi Shrine meeting, Suzaku could tell Lelouch had been lying though, which presumably included the part about the Euphemia geassing being a deliberate action that he did. (He also took the fall for Shirley's murder, even though that was all Rolo.) I still consider the possibility that Suzaku was either told or somehow figured out the truth on his own during the timeskip between the World of C incident with Charles/Marianne and when they took over the throne, since they had once again become best friends.

I will agree that Lelouch screwed up by saying that what happened to Euphemia was in the past, where he should have instead said he could explain later, but apparently the creative team wanted to draw the situation out into a massive cliffhanger.
I don't think that Suzaku x Lelouch were ever friends again around the time of Zero's Requiem.

The creative staff even said that Lelouch x Suzaku would never become friends again. A very big contradiction. Suzaku did join up with him for the final task. But Zero's Requiem was, in my opinion, a last minute story to close the season on the assumption that there would not be another Code Geass series.
darthfury78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 14:10   Link #5012
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I don't think that Suzaku x Lelouch were ever friends again around the time of Zero's Requiem.

The creative staff even said that Lelouch x Suzaku would never become friends again. A very big contradiction. Suzaku did join up with him for the final task. But Zero's Requiem was, in my opinion, a last minute story to close the season on the assumption that there would not be another Code Geass series.
The staff said that Suzaku and Zero would never work together again, and that was prior to the Zero Requiem IIRC. Lelouch had abandoned his Zero alter ego following his falling out with the Black Knights. So there was nothing to later contradict there. It was later revealed in accompanying interviews and materials, notably including Mutuality, that Suzaku and Lelouch had become best friends once again, and were truer friends than they were in their childhoods, now understanding each other perfectly.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 14:11   Link #5013
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I don't think that Suzaku x Lelouch were ever friends again around the time of Zero's Requiem.

The creative staff even said that Lelouch x Suzaku would never become friends again. A very big contradiction. Suzaku did join up with him for the final task. But Zero's Requiem was, in my opinion, a last minute story to close the season on the assumption that there would not be another Code Geass series.
Uhm, actually, the staff stated that they were best friends again - maybe even better ones than during season 1 - and understood each other completely.

Edit:
Ah, late again. xD
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 14:56   Link #5014
darthfury78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The staff said that Suzaku and Zero would never work together again, and that was prior to the Zero Requiem IIRC. Lelouch had abandoned his Zero alter ego following his falling out with the Black Knights. So there was nothing to later contradict there. It was later revealed in accompanying interviews and materials, notably including Mutuality, that Suzaku and Lelouch had become best friends once again, and were truer friends than they were in their childhoods, now understanding each other perfectly.
This proves that the staff made contradictory remarks about Suzaku x Lelouch. They were trying to salvage what was left to work with on Code Geass R2. And they rushed through the entire second season. So I might have missed that part. but I don't think that Suzaku x Lelouch were friends once again, as the staff led us to believe. Otherwise, Suzaku would not have killed Lelouch.

In addition, I still think that Code Geass R2, towards the mass audience, was a just a summer vechicle to get them ready for Gundam 00 once it have ended. And, I don't think that there was any other Sunrise anime projects in the pipeline to be released at that time.
darthfury78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 15:03   Link #5015
Nogitsune
Shameless Fangirl
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 24
I could now explain for the thousandst time why Lelouch and Suzaku were friends again by the end of the anime, but actually, just this once, I will take the liberty and say...
Nope, it's just not worth the effort.
So yeah. Lelouch and Suzaku were friends again. No doubt about that, and no point in discussing it once again.
But just for the heck of it: Suzaku didn't work with Zero. He worked with Lelouch.
__________________
"I think of the disturbance in Area 11 as a chess puzzle, set forth by Lelouch." - Clovis la Britannia
Nogitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 15:04   Link #5016
morbosfist
Spinning Lotus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
You're just assuming the worst and ignoring the obvious. They were friends, which is why Suzaku is sad that he killed Lelouch. It had to be done, though, because that was the plan and everyone benefits from it.
__________________
morbosfist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 15:11   Link #5017
incorrupts
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greece
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to incorrupts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I could now explain for the thousandst time why Lelouch and Suzaku were friends again by the end of the anime, but actually, just this once, I will take the liberty and say...
Nope, it's just not worth the effort.
So yeah. Lelouch and Suzaku were friends again. No doubt about that, and no point in discussing it once again.
But just for the heck of it: Suzaku didn't work with Zero. He worked with Lelouch.
Yeah, because he wanted to become Zero in the end, that damn outfit that attracts girls. 8D

Ok, srsly now, Lelouch and Suzaku could never rekindle their friendship or return to where they were, because of all the crap and heartache that have took place in between them, that is obvious.
Some things "break" and some things, that are way strong from the beginning, tend to "bend". <-kinda the case with those two
They did reach a great level of mutual understanding in the end and they worked together, to find a way, to atone for their sins and make the world peaceful.
I am not really sure, if i would label them as "bff again!!1" after the ending, frankly, it is quite difficult for me, to find a correct "definition" for what they "had" in the end, but i guess, i will have to go, with what the staff said.
incorrupts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 15:12   Link #5018
darthfury78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
You're just assuming the worst and ignoring the obvious. They were friends, which is why Suzaku is sad that he killed Lelouch. It had to be done, though, because that was the plan and everyone benefits from it.
I believe that Zero's Requiem (in my honest opinion) it was simply a last minute change to the storyline structure, since it was believed that there would not be another season of Code Geass.

Code Geass is simply an epic that is too big to be contained in 25 episodes. After all the crap that the staff had to go through with producing Code Geass R2, I was not surprised to have seen them kill off Lelouch as a way of stopping the series from moving forward. It would be very difficult to replace Lelouch with another character, much less the storyline.
darthfury78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 15:15   Link #5019
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I believe that Zero's Requiem was never part of the original story. And was a last minute change in the storyline structure, since it was believed that there would not be another season of Code Geass.
So you're back to not trusting word of god? Because they stated time and time again that Zero Requiem was the only thing they didn't change with the timeslot complication.
__________________
Rising Dragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-05-20, 15:17   Link #5020
incorrupts
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greece
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to incorrupts
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I believe that Zero's Requiem was never part of the original story because(in my honest opinion) it was a last minute change to the storyline structure, since it was believed that there would not be another season of Code Geass.
Actually, apart from the staff stating that, that one, was kind of obvious from the "beginning", since certain lines of Lelouch used in the span of the two seasons, led us to believe, that a concept like this in the end, would take place.
I am not sure, if it was gonna be orchestrated like it was in the finale, but the whole plan, was there all along.
incorrupts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.