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Old 2009-05-27, 09:03   Link #5081
bladeofdarkness
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they make lelouch SUPER smart
and make suzaku SUPER strong and agile
that lelouch is bad at sports may be a running gag
but its a running gag in the same way that kallen getting into emberasing naked situations is a running gag
it has no baring on the plot

and all they really need to do is exagurate both of their respective skill
lelouch can predict what shnizel would say for several minutes and plan for every option of battle
suzaku can leap over KMF's and dodge machine gun bullets
THATS why they are the perfect pair, not becouse they fix eachothers weakness, but becouse they each are the best in their praticular field

and having suzaku as a total moron would make him pathetic as an antagonist (which he spends most of the time as)
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Old 2009-05-27, 09:14   Link #5082
ZeroSama
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
they make lelouch SUPER smart
and make suzaku SUPER strong and agile
that lelouch is bad at sports may be a running gag
but its a running gag in the same way that kallen getting into emberasing naked situations is a running gag
it has no baring on the plot

and all they really need to do is exagurate both of their respective skill
lelouch can predict what shnizel would say for several minutes and plan for every option of battle
suzaku can leap over KMF's and dodge machine gun bullets
THATS why they are the perfect pair, not becouse they fix eachothers weakness, but becouse they each are the best in their praticular field

and having suzaku as a total moron would make him pathetic as an antagonist (which he spends most of the time as)
Um no. They are the perfect pair because they cover each others weaknesses, not because they are the best at what they do. If they didn't cover each others weaknessess.....they would still have weakness for someone to exploit.

Schenziel according to the show is the better strategist(Lelouch just read him better that one time) and Bismark is a better fighter than Suzaku(he just got shafted because Suzaku had a Jesus mech. If he had a 9th gen mech Suzaku is screwed).

And so what if they make Suzaku a moron? Ever hear the phrase "evil wins because good is dumb"? I mean theirs nothing wrong with him being stupid. You don't need to be smart(or intensively trained apparently) to pilot a mecha in anime all you need is some form of plot aid(minosky particles, ultimate co-ordinator, spiral energy, gn particles the force(lol)), brains take a backseat to hotbloodness.
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Old 2009-05-27, 09:21   Link #5083
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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However while they clearly showed with Lelouch how he was a genius but woefully physically inedaquate when compared to, well, just about anything, the same cannot be said about Suzaku. I mean Suzaku has been shown to be superhuman running along walls, breaking iron with a kick and jumping 30 feet in the air but he has never been shown to be stupid, terribly naive but never stupid.
The greatest in-story evidence to suggest Suzaku's mental deficiency, is revolving around the incident with his attempted drugging of Kallen. Nevermind the fact that the drug isn't even a truth serum and as such useless, Suzaku didn't even need to do that. All Suzaku had to do was to visit the people who are watching Lulu, to confirm the fact that they were compromised.
He finally did this later, when it should have been his first action to begin with.

The fact that even though he suspect something is wrong with the people watching Lulu, Suzaku didn't try the most direct approach in finding out what's wrong, is a sign of decision making deficiency.
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Old 2009-05-27, 09:35   Link #5084
ZeroSama
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The greatest in-story evidence to suggest Suzaku's mental deficiency, is revolving around the incident with his attempted drugging of Kallen. Nevermind the fact that the drug isn't even a truth serum and as such useless, Suzaku didn't even need to do that. All Suzaku had to do was to visit the people who are watching Lulu, to confirm the fact that they were compromised.
He finally did this later, when it should have been his first action to begin with.

The fact that even though he suspect something is wrong with the people watching Lulu, Suzaku didn't try the most direct approach in finding out what's wrong, is a sign of decision making deficiency.
Whats the point? If he suspected Lelouch was Zero again, then its likely for him to suspect that the watchers have been compromised totally, yet Villeta, a person he knows has been geassed making her immune is still sending out reports that everything is fine up until he vists. It was only because Rolo, Lelouch, Sayako and Villeta had buggered off somewhere at the sametime and all the guards are going "its fine" that he catches on, if Sayako(as Lelouch), Rolo and Villeta where there(which he has no way of knowing they weren't) then chances are he'd been fooled. I mean everyone else was fooled right?

What he thinks the refrain'll do, i don't know. Maybe try and turn her into a junkie so she rats Lelouch out for her next fix or maybe just for the lulz of hurting someone Lelouch cares about, take your pick.

Also it wouldn't be surprising if his emotions have interefered with his judgement. I mean its because of his emotions that Lelouch gets to carry the idiot ball most of the time in CG, why should Suzaku be any different?
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Old 2009-05-27, 09:51   Link #5085
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Whats the point? If he suspected Lelouch was Zero again, then its likely for him to suspect that the watchers have been compromised totally, yet Villeta, a person he knows has been geassed making her immune is still sending out reports that everything is fine up until he vists.
And why exactly did he NOT visit them earlier, instead of trying to drug a prisoner with a useless hallucinogen?

There was nothing that prevents Suzaku from making a visit. He is high enough in the hierarchy to make an inspection unannounced. If you think something is wrong, you make a house-call. This is a standard first-response anyone should have done. The fact is, Suzaku had not believed for a second that "everything is fine", yet didn't respond properly. This isn't because of emotions, IMO; I view this as evidence that Suzaku has trouble dealing with being a manager and leader.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:14   Link #5086
ZeroSama
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And why exactly did he NOT visit them earlier, instead of trying to drug a prisoner with a useless hallucinogen?

There was nothing that prevents Suzaku from making a visit. He is high enough in the hierarchy to make an inspection unannounced. If you think something is wrong, you make a house-call. This is a standard first-response anyone should have done. The fact is, Suzaku had not believed for a second that "everything is fine", yet didn't respond properly. This isn't because of emotions, IMO; I view this as evidence that Suzaku has trouble dealing with being a manager and leader.
Suzaku only truly suspected Lelouch was Zero again after the events at the SAZ because of how well he knew how Suzaku would react to the situation. Suzaku however had already been to Ashford already as a a student by that stage and didn't notice anything off, had visited Villeta, Rolo and the rest of the specials and they assured him everything was surefine and the student council all said Lelouch was faffing about at Ashford while Zero was lulzing in China.

In his head if things are truly as they shouldbe or if they are completely compromised going to Ashford will only get him reassured once more that everything is surefine. Therefore he tries and gets outside confirmation that lelouch is Zero by turning kallen into a junkie.


Also it has always been about emotions buggering up his decisions. I mean on one hand in EP 8 when Lelouch says "I'll bring 1 million people to the SAZ if you let me bugger off" Suzaku is like let a criminal escape? NOOOOOOOOOO. Then we have him in EP 1 telling Chuckie that "I'll be the one to kill Zero" contrasted with him in EP9 saving Zero from a deranged table humper and having to be told that "you're supposed to hate Zero" and in EP 17 agreeing to help Lelouch(who he knows is Zero by this time) even though he can tell Lelouch is lying through his teeth. Heck even in the last Ep when Lelouch gives him the mask and says you'll be the one to kill me, Suzaku is like "Lelouch do you really want to go through with this?" yet just after whacking mom and dad he's like "I'll kill u bitch 4 Euphie".

Seriously Suzaku doesn't know what he bloody wants. He doesn't know if he wants Lelouch to be Zero so he can rage at him for what happened to Euphie or Lelouch not to be Zero so they can be semi-friends. If this doesn't show him as being emotionaly compromised in his judgement in relation to anything about Lelouch, I don't know what does.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:17   Link #5087
bladeofdarkness
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Suzaku was hoping the drug would strip kallen of her will power and make her stop resisting and just admit what BOTH of them know that she is hiding (suzaku is certain of it). Given that most drugs have that effect, that doesn't make suzaku an idiot. Just a dick
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:19   Link #5088
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Suzaku was hoping the drug would strip kallen of her will power and make her stop resisting and just admit what BOTH of them know that she is hiding (suzaku is certain of it). Given that most drugs have that effect, that doesn't make suzaku an idiot. Just a dick
Not really. The drug would just randomly rehash Kallen's memories, which means Suzaku wouldn't know if Kallen is talking about events in season 1 or season 2.
Quote:
Suzaku however had already been to Ashford already as a a student by that stage and didn't notice anything off, had visited Villeta, Rolo and the rest of the specials and they assured him everything was surefine and the student council all said Lelouch was faffing about at Ashford while Zero was lulzing in China.
If Suzaku doesn't believe them, then THEY should have been the ones who are drugged and/or tortured for info, not Kallen. Somebody was lying; Suzaku should find out who that is, instead of monkeying around with a prisoner.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:30   Link #5089
ZeroSama
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Not really. The drug would just randomly rehash Kallen's memories, which means Suzaku wouldn't know if Kallen is talking about events in season 1 or season 2.

If Suzaku doesn't believe them, then THEY should have been the ones who are drugged and/or tortured for info, not Kallen. Somebody was lying; Suzaku should find out who that is, instead of monkeying around with a prisoner.
If Suzaku belived they had been compromised(with geass most likely) then he will know they will never go against the order they were given no matter what happens(he can't). Why would he have them tortured? Their just more poor buggers who got screwed over by Lelouchs geass and their on his team to boot. Kallen is on the opposing team. Shes fair game plus it has the added benefit of pissing off Lelouch and ensuring that if by some stroke luck she is rescued, they get a junkie back rather than an ace pilot.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:59   Link #5090
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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If Suzaku belived they had been compromised(with geass most likely) then he will know they will never go against the order they were given no matter what happens(he can't). Why would he have them tortured? Their just more poor buggers who got screwed over by Lelouchs geass and their on his team to boot.
If they aren't on his team anymore, then why not torture them?

No matter what he does with Kallen, as long as the Intelligence Agency contradict him Suzaku would convince no one else. Suzaku need proof that the Intel is wrong, but you can't do that without confronting the evidence directly. Suzaku needed to request the surveillance logs, as well as checking for holes in the time schedule.

The Intel team is telling him and everyone else that there is nothing wrong. Even if Kallen says otherwise, it is still the words of an enemy against the words of government officials. Suzaku need to prove the surveillance team is wrong, but he did nothing to that effect.

All it took, in the end, was for Suzaku to visit them directly. It's what Lulu would have done.
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:21   Link #5091
bladeofdarkness
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oh come on
say what you want about suzaku, but you cant really say that he was planning on turning kallen into a junkie
do you expect me to believe he was PLANNING on TURNING her into a junkie (a long process that requires more then one injection, you dont get addicted on the very first use)
and then use her addiction to get her to tell him what he wants ?
it takes sheirly dying just to get him to gather the resolve to do anything other then ASKING her about lelouch
and he cant even go through with THAT in the end
putting aside the fact that there was no way in hell nunnaly would ever even let him anywhere NEAR kallen after the first time (kallen would have no reason to keep quite about something like that, she never told nunnaly becouse he didnt do it)
doing what your saying is something pure EVIL
and suzaku isnt capable of that at that stage (maybe after turn 19)
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:29   Link #5092
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He would have done it by accident had he gone through with it. Refrain is quite addictive. It's not like he had thought it out that far, though.
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:32   Link #5093
bladeofdarkness
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but he was certaintly not PLANNING on it
which is what zerosama seems to implay
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:33   Link #5094
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
but he was certaintly not PLANNING on it
which is what zerosama seems to implay
Yes, this much is true. Suzaku was just being an malicious idiot, not a downright monster.
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Old 2009-05-27, 15:04   Link #5095
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Thanks to Blade, Morbo, and Frost for the corrections on my PD comments.

It's more of a possible plot hole than a jab at Suzaku's ability to follow the guidlines of the very system he supossedly is OCD about following, but I always wondered why nobody caught onto the fact that Lelouch got his memories back after he used his Geass to kill Carthage Team in Babel Tower and announced himself as Lelouch Vi Britannia. If the Thought Elevators allowed one to view the memories of the dead (like Charles was with Clovis apparently) then given the time Charles and V.V. spend in there, they should have checked on the soldiers' memories, at which point they would have known Lelouch was 'back.'
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Old 2009-05-27, 15:42   Link #5096
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Suzaku only truly suspected Lelouch was Zero again after the events at the SAZ because of how well he knew how Suzaku would react to the situation. Suzaku however had already been to Ashford already as a a student by that stage and didn't notice anything off, had visited Villeta, Rolo and the rest of the specials and they assured him everything was surefine and the student council all said Lelouch was faffing about at Ashford while Zero was lulzing in China.

In his head if things are truly as they shouldbe or if they are completely compromised going to Ashford will only get him reassured once more that everything is surefine. Therefore he tries and gets outside confirmation that lelouch is Zero by turning kallen into a junkie.


Also it has always been about emotions buggering up his decisions. I mean on one hand in EP 8 when Lelouch says "I'll bring 1 million people to the SAZ if you let me bugger off" Suzaku is like let a criminal escape? NOOOOOOOOOO. Then we have him in EP 1 telling Chuckie that "I'll be the one to kill Zero" contrasted with him in EP9 saving Zero from a deranged table humper and having to be told that "you're supposed to hate Zero" and in EP 17 agreeing to help Lelouch(who he knows is Zero by this time) even though he can tell Lelouch is lying through his teeth.
Lelouch was lying to cover up his nobler side, because he didn't feel he deserved to show it in front of Suzaku at the time. He just wanted Suzaku's help, and having nothing getting in the way of him apologizing was evidently what Lelouch felt was right.
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Old 2009-05-27, 15:46   Link #5097
morbosfist
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It's more of a possible plot hole than a jab at Suzaku's ability to follow the guidlines of the very system he supossedly is OCD about following, but I always wondered why nobody caught onto the fact that Lelouch got his memories back after he used his Geass to kill Carthage Team in Babel Tower and announced himself as Lelouch Vi Britannia. If the Thought Elevators allowed one to view the memories of the dead (like Charles was with Clovis apparently) then given the time Charles and V.V. spend in there, they should have checked on the soldiers' memories, at which point they would have known Lelouch was 'back.'
I swear I've answered this before. Aside from the fact that they are never shown to be capable of that aside from some offhand mention, how are they supposed to dive through an almost infinite sea of memories to find the memories of some random dead dude? It's like finding a needle in a haystack.
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Old 2009-05-27, 16:34   Link #5098
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A quick question for everyone else here. Does anyone else here think that Taniguchi and Okuchi didn't make Suzaku dumb enough?

I mean the whole Lelouch-Suzaku relationship thing is supposed to be how they make up for the others shortcomings and how they are unstoppable when they work together right.

However while they clearly showed with Lelouch how he was a genius but woefully physically inedaquate when compared to, well, just about anything, the same cannot be said about Suzaku. I mean Suzaku has been shown to be superhuman running along walls, breaking iron with a kick and jumping 30 feet in the air but he has never been shown to be stupid, terribly naive but never stupid.
If he was dumb he would never have thought to use Nunnally as a trap to discover if Lelouch was Zero again amongst other things.


They should either have increased Lelouchs physical prowess to that of a normal teenagers or shaved about 20 points off Suzakus I.Q to even it out a bit because seriously if they make Lelouch so pitifull physically, they have to make Suzaku a serious fucktard to maintain balance.
His a Japanese person who works for Britannia. How dumb do you want him to be? Forrest Gump?

I mean he probably drinks cofee that the soldiers took a piss in.
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Old 2009-05-27, 16:38   Link #5099
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I guess the only inconsistency is that he isn't the biggest idiot on the show. (That distinction of course is essentially Gino's.)
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Old 2009-05-27, 16:50   Link #5100
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I guess the only inconsistency is that he isn't the biggest idiot on the show. (That distinction of course is essentially Gino's.)
I have to go with Villeta, I mean in one episode she wears a bathing suit whose bottom is basically a string and then bitches about how she agreed to wear it, and the only thing holding her to Lelouch is the fact that he knows she once dated Ougi when she had amnesia. That's it, it's Lelouch's word against her word.
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