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Old 2009-12-18, 11:11   Link #6961
azul120
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Oghi actually got rewarded in spite of his screwups. Some sort of averted karma trope applies, at the very least.

Even though he never was all that honorable for reasons just mentioned, I've also agreed that Gino was too simple-minded to qualify.
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:21   Link #6962
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Oghi actually got rewarded in spite of his screwups. Some sort of averted karma trope applies, at the very least.

Even though he never was all that honorable for reasons just mentioned, I've also agreed that Gino was too simple-minded to qualify.
one could argue that he was rewarded for dedicating several years of his life to fighting against tyranny as the OOBK 2nd in command (he was part of the group before there even WAS an OOBK)
and almost losing his life because of it several times
you can argue about the last few months of his service in them (where he was actually the LEADER of the group), but you can take away everything he did beforehand simply because he made a stupid decision out of fear

P.S
not being honorable =/= deserving karmic retribution
you actually have to kick (or possibly rape) a few dogs to earn that one
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Old 2009-12-18, 12:31   Link #6963
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Well, what he did at the very least should have rightfully neutralized his former goodwill and lampshaded his lack of competence, specifically for the position to which he was elected.
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Old 2009-12-18, 12:40   Link #6964
bladeofdarkness
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Well, what he did at the very least should have rightfully neutralized his former goodwill and lampshaded his lack of competence, specifically for the position to which he was elected.
you mean expose the fact that the leader of the OOBK is a britannian prince who is using the japanese people for his own selfish goals ?
you need to remember that he is NOT all that wrong in that regard
at least, he would have been entirely correct in season 1
and while Lelouch might have had something of a change of heart in season 2, does not cancel out the fact that everything he actually DID in season 2 makes him look even worse (leaving the OOBK in jail for a year, blackmailing villeta, massacring the geass cult)
assuming he was RIGHT about lelouch, which if this was season 1, he WOULD be
his actions are completely in line with what you'd expect
protect the cause, japan, at any cost.
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Old 2009-12-18, 13:05   Link #6965
morbosfist
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There's nothing wrong with blackmailing Villetta. She's the enemy, and complicit in keeping him trapped under a false persona. Now, Ohgi consorting with her is wrong, because he's a leader in the Black Knights and should know better. That's a disturbing lapse in competence that went completely unnoticed. Leaving the Black Knights in jail for a year was not Lelouch fault, directly anyway, and he did get them back out. The Geass Cult is the only unequivocally evil thing he did was the massacre, and even that could be justified.

Ohgi's actions were selfish. He screwed over the entire UFN, and the Black Knights themselves, just to stay with Villetta. Diethard even notes it. All Ohgi was doing was protecting Villetta. Japan might as well have been an afterthought.
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Old 2009-12-18, 13:06   Link #6966
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Except for the following:

Lelouch was a former Britannian prince who relinquished his right to the throne, and in the process was exiled from Japan along with Nunnally to be used as political pawns. Not to mention the OoBK in jail for a year wasn't entirely his fault, due to his mindwiped memories. And Villetta is the biggest anti-reason, not to mention one of Ohgi's points of hypocrisy, since she was a Britannian spy who he secretly went AWOL and nearly let himself be killed by. (Not to mention that he let his guard down during the Black Rebellion when she showed up looking none too pleased to see him.) And regarding the blackmailing, it was a countermove to the fact that she was the head of the OSI division to watch over him following the Black Rebellion. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And yet Ohgi doesn't get called on any of it.
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Old 2009-12-18, 13:06   Link #6967
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Ougi himself said he was no leader, and by the end of R2 he wants you to believe he can play Prime Minister? LOL.

His idiocy and lust for Britannian pussy led to a ton of unnecessary deaths.
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Old 2009-12-18, 13:15   Link #6968
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What can I say? Sometimes, Love Makes You Dumb.

I just came up with a new trope name for the way things turned out: Scrappy Ending. I'm pretty sure few would disagree.
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Old 2009-12-18, 13:24   Link #6969
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Except for the following:

Lelouch was a former Britannian prince who relinquished his right to the throne, and in the process was exiled from Japan along with Nunnally to be used as political pawns. Not to mention the OoBK in jail for a year wasn't entirely his fault, due to his mindwiped memories. And Villetta is the biggest anti-reason, not to mention one of Ohgi's points of hypocrisy, since she was a Britannian spy who he secretly went AWOL and nearly let himself be killed by. (Not to mention that he let his guard down during the Black Rebellion when she showed up looking none too pleased to see him.) And regarding the blackmailing, it was a countermove to the fact that she was the head of the OSI division to watch over him following the Black Rebellion. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And yet Ohgi doesn't get called on any of it.
thats an interesting interpretation (which also happens to be right)
unfortunately, here is what OUGI knows

Lelouch was an EXILED britannian prince
who, consumed with his anger at his exile, highjacked the japanese liberation movement under the pretense of wanting to free japan, because that way he'll have LOTS of soldiers fighting for him
he then proceeds to eliminated every other resistance group in order to make him the ONLY player in town, and the kills his own sister after making her massacre Japanese people in a bid to rally people to act
he nevertheless ditched the entire operation in the middle of the battle for whatever reason, and waited until the time was right to start over
he has a power that allows him to mind-control to do whatever he wants them to, and has in the past used this power on his enemies, allies, and even his own family whenever it suited him to do so

and here is the key point
as far as ougi knows, he is USING the OOBK for his own goals, and intends to later on dispose of them once they have outlived their usefulness, just like he did with the JLF
he has no real reason to free japan, but is simply using the japanese people for his own bid for the throne
and once, confronted with these accusations, he ADMITS them while laughing like a madman

you need to remember that what WE the viewers know, is not the same as what the characters know
and if what ougi knew was actually the TRUTH, then his actions are almost entirely justified in trying to get rid of him

P.S
a wartime leader and a peacetime leader or not the same thing
often enough, someone who is great during times of war, is a bad choice to run a country during times of peace
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:26   Link #6970
azul120
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True enough. It would have helped if you made the distinction of it coming from Ohgi's POV in the first place.

While I agree that leading during wartime =/= leading during peacetime are different, Ohgi never seemed to be much of a leader to begin with. He's generally a figurehead for the common man.

Going back to your past point about dishonorable =/= deserving karmic retribution, you never know what Gino may have been responsible outside of canon. At the very least, killing Senba outside of the direct rules of engagement won't do him any favors.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:35   Link #6971
morbosfist
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Generally, while a good military leader may not make a good peacetime leader, a poor military leader is no more likely to be good in the civilian sector than he is in a warzone.

Ohgi's POV is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't excuse the utter lack of due process Lelouch is shown. At the very least, for what he has done for good at least earns him the chance to give his side of the story. Their complete unwillingness to even let him talk turns what would have been a valid mutiny into a sorry excuse for a panicked overreaction.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:39   Link #6972
bladeofdarkness
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well...
killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield is hardly grounds for karmic retribution
by the same token, the mere fact that he has a flight enabled 8th gen mecha vs grounded enemies is alone enough to make it "unsporting"
thats just how battle IS
it doesn't score him any points in making him likable or honorable
but it hardly counts as kick the dog (especially given that he also comments about how he dislikes this sort of thing after doing it)

as for whatever he did off screen, well, its we dont know what he did offscreen so its hard to judge him
i doubt he was much worse then suzaku would have been (and clearly nowhere near the likes of bradly)

as for ougi, cant really say if he's good enough to be PM
not when you consider that MOST PM's aren't suited for the task either
few elected leaders are really suited for the post for which they were elected
especially since in politics you wont get anywhere without being a prick of epic proportions (thats what politics are)
who knows, he ougi might even be an IMPROVEMENT
at least he got elected for doing things OTHER then being the biggest snake in the political pool
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Ohgi's POV is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't excuse the utter lack of due process Lelouch is shown. At the very least, for what he has done for good at least earns him the chance to give his side of the story. Their complete unwillingness to even let him talk turns what would have been a valid mutiny into a sorry excuse for a panicked overreaction.
it IS a panicked overreaction
thats the whole point
but its not completely off base (it would have been completely fitting in season 1)
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Old 2009-12-18, 21:17   Link #6973
morbosfist
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Only from a certain point of view. He genuinely intended to give Japan its freedom, and like it or not everything he's done for them makes their reaction entirely unjustified. A man who has done so much in service of their cause at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. Ohgi was whipped and towing the line for Villetta.
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Old 2009-12-19, 12:07   Link #6974
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you mean expose the fact that the leader of the OOBK is a britannian prince who is using the japanese people for his own selfish goals ?
And then promptly join another Britannian Prince who is using the Japanese people for his own selfish goals and just the previous episode is responsible for the nuclear weapon that ate half of Tokyo?
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Old 2009-12-19, 12:11   Link #6975
bladeofdarkness
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And then promptly join another Britannian Prince who is using the Japanese people for his own selfish goals and just the previous episode is responsible for the nuclear weapon that ate half of Tokyo?
i think you ment "turn against Lelouch to get rid of him, and STILL demanded japan in return"
they didn't join forces with shnizel until Lelouch ATTACKED them in ep 22
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Old 2009-12-19, 21:30   Link #6976
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You'd think they would put Schneizel under a little more scrutiny though. But instead, in addition to what happened in R2 19, Schneizel was free to retreat to cause more damage later. Which he did, needless to say.
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Old 2009-12-20, 01:38   Link #6977
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i think you ment "turn against Lelouch to get rid of him, and STILL demanded japan in return"
they didn't join forces with shnizel until Lelouch ATTACKED them in ep 22
They joined forces with Schneizel almost immediately after betraying Lelouch, in fact they went hunting for Lelouch on Kamine island TOGETHER, and that was like 18 or 19....
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Old 2009-12-20, 03:29   Link #6978
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
thats an interesting interpretation (which also happens to be right)
unfortunately, here is what OUGI knows

Lelouch was an EXILED britannian prince
who, consumed with his anger at his exile, highjacked the japanese liberation movement under the pretense of wanting to free japan, because that way he'll have LOTS of soldiers fighting for him
He is trusting Schneizel and Viletta's words for this. Both are Britannian nobility and obviously have alot to lose by Zero's continued existence. As well both have attempted to kill the BK and/or Ohgi specifically on more than one occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
He then proceeds to eliminated every other resistance group in order to make him the ONLY player in town,
With the exception of the JLF tanker and Kusakabe, which again, cannot be proven, ALL the other terrorist groups were killed by Cornelia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and then kills his own sister after making her massacre Japanese people in a bid to rally people to act
Again, no proof, and Schneizel already displayed a willingness to kill Euphemia as well. Clovis was apparently relatively 'soft' on the Japanese, since if I'm understanding things correctly, he was one of the ones responsible for getting the Honorary Britannian system established in Area 11, yet he then turned round and massacred Shinjuku, and Cornelia did Saitama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he nevertheless ditched the entire operation in the middle of the battle for whatever reason, and waited until the time was right to start over
The official story was that his identity was uncovered (by Vilettea), he was caught by Suzaku, and executed. He could just as easily have been lying in wait trying to save them and he did risk his life doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he has a power that allows him to mind-control to do whatever he wants them to, and has in the past used this power on his enemies, allies, and even his own family whenever it suited him to do so
Again, he's trusting Schneizel and Viletta's words on this. They have no proof that he does, and even then, they have no proof that he used it on Euphemia or them, to say nothing of the question of why he would even bother making an army if he could just walk up to Charles and be made the new Emperor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and here is the key point
as far as ougi knows, he is USING the OOBK for his own goals, and intends to later on dispose of them once they have outlived their usefulness, just like he did with the JLF
he has no real reason to free japan, but is simply using the japanese people for his own bid for the throne
and once, confronted with these accusations, he ADMITS them while laughing like a madman
And again, no proof. In any case Lelouch has also displayed concern for them on as many occasions and even sacrificed a victory for them in Narita.

Schneizel was an enemy commander who approached the BK with 5 seconds of sound-only recording of a voice that kind of sounded like a guy they know MIGHT if he ever took of his mask, and dressed up guesswork documents. Schneizel's case pretty much amounted to selling the BK a rock that keeps tigers away. Even if the rock actually worked, the way it was marketed still makes the BK idiots for buying it, and they are in a position where they cannot afford to be idiots.
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Old 2009-12-20, 03:39   Link #6979
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I think blade was speaking from Ohgi's apparent POV. I don't think he was denying it was stupid, especially since Villetta had him whipped.
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Old 2009-12-20, 03:40   Link #6980
bladeofdarkness
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I think blade was speaking from Ohgi's apparent POV. I don't think he was denying it was stupid, especially since Villetta had him whipped.
this.
what the viewers know and what ougi knows is not the same
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