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Old 2010-02-22, 16:46   Link #7081
Nogitsune
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Now we've reached the point where we can't say whether genocide is right or wrong? I like relativism, it's interesting, but I know I have a pretty firm opinion on the matter.

If Cornelia lived in our world, in our society, I would agree - terrorists need to be dealt with, and the ones harbouring them are criminals of the worst kind. But we are not talking about our world.
Britannia is ruthless and tramples the weak without mercy. It's an enemy that can not be defeated by conventional means, and those who suffer at its hands are willing to bend their morals because they are that desperate. If you drive people into a corner, they will react accordiningly. You can't expect them to just shut up and take it.
Cornelia created a second Shinjuku - and as much as I like Clovis, most of the people he ordered to be killed were neither terrorists nor supporters of terrorists. There were quite a few small children among the victims, and elderly people who probably didn't do anything more criminal than falling asleep in their chair.
I highly doubt Cornelia nicely evacuated these kinds of people.

Cornelia believes in breaking people's spirits completely before accepting them as part of the empire. She and Schneizel have a discussion about this in Stage 0.884 - Schneizel tells her that those conquered at least need to be able to provide for themselves, but Cornelia is of the opinion that Britannia can do that... after they have lost their will to fight, or do anything at all, really.
She states herself that discriminating against Numbers is part of Britannia's policy, and she shows that very nicely in her treatment of Suzaku, amongst other things.

[Oh, and yay for the mention of Clovis earlier!]
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Old 2010-02-22, 17:56   Link #7082
azul120
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
What's wrong with that?

Terrorists aren't upstanding, productive members of any society. As the name implies they use terror and underhanded tactics to achieve their goals, usually targeting civilians. More often than not their victims end up being the very same people they're supposed to be fighting for...

The people who harbor and enable these people are no better.

There's nothing wrong with showing them no mercy in my book.
Even though they completely surrendered, which they did? The Blood of the Samurai fired back at her at first in defense before they found they were had, after which they surrendered. And regarding Saitama, the civilians were completely helpless and possibly didn't even know where the terrorists, or perhaps resistance fighters, as Britannia was at fault here, were, and that Cornelia had no problems massacring them regardless. Not to mention that she would have let the JLF terrorists in Lake Kawaguchi have their way with the Britannian hostages if Euphie wasn't among them.

I daresay she has as much on her hands if not more than Lelouch did. The difference being that it was all senseless.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:23   Link #7083
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Since when was Cornelia carrying out genocide?

She NEVER went around murdering Elevens for just being elevens. She was specifically targeting terrorist strongholds.

Some of the logic being used here is confusing. Britannia pushed the terrorists to start murdering their own people? How is that going to change anything when all these bombings and shit are killing tons of Elevens? "Sorry, we're doing this for Japan so we're gonna have to blow you up =/" What kind of bullshit reasoning is that? That's one of the first thing Lelouch tells Ougi and his lackeys, "Britannia will not fall to terrorism. It is merely a childish nuisance."

Japan had its chance to fight for its freedom and it lost. The people needed to get over it and work within the system like Suzaku, either that or engage Britannia in the open field, instead of using their fellow countrymen as shields and sacrificial lambs.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Even though they completely surrendered, which they did? The Blood of the Samurai fired back at her at first in defense before they found they were had, after which they surrendered. And regarding Saitama, the civilians were completely helpless and possibly didn't even know where the terrorists, or perhaps resistance fighters, as Britannia was at fault here, were, and that Cornelia had no problems massacring them regardless. Not to mention that she would have let the JLF terrorists in Lake Kawaguchi have their way with the Britannian hostages if Euphie wasn't among them.

I daresay she has as much on her hands if not more than Lelouch did. The difference being that it was all senseless.
Seriously bro, watch episode 6 again. The Blood of the Samurai NEVER surrendered, they opened fire on Cornelia after she asked them to surrender (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmzBuZObtaM 5:14 I ) As for the civilians in Saitama Dalton clearly states that their intel indicated over half the people in the ghetto were actively aiding the terrorists.
Also, Cornelia would not have let the JLF in Lake Kawaguchi have their way. EVEN with Euphie inside she refused to give in to their demands because like most governments, Britannia does not negotiate with terrorists. Lelouch notes that the only thing stopping Cornelia from storming in and wiping out all the terrorists was the fact that Euphie was inside. So, had she not been there Cornelia would've solved the situation a lot faster, but with some civilian casualties (i.e student council and such)
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Last edited by Revolutionist; 2010-02-22 at 18:35.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:35   Link #7084
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
A complete Asshat who the writers have everyone agree with. You would be amazed at what some writers will try to portray as right.
I think half the whole point of the series IS to get the viewer to view things from a different perspective than what is typical. I've always seen it as an extremely interesting social expirement...one that has revealed how disgustingly mindless and controllable the masses are. Most people do see Lelouch as a basically good person in lieu of his flaws. And that, I find both hilarious and terrifying.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:40   Link #7085
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Since when was Cornelia carrying out genocide?

She NEVER went around murdering Elevens for just being elevens. She was specifically targeting terrorist strongholds.

Some of the logic being used here is confusing. Britannia pushed the terrorists to start murdering their own people? How is that going to change anything when all these bombings and shit are killing tons of Elevens? "Sorry, we're doing this for Japan so we're gonna have to blow you up =/" What kind of bullshit reasoning is that? That's one of the first thing Lelouch tells Ougi and his lackeys, "Britannia will not fall to terrorism. It is merely a childish nuisance."

Japan had its chance to fight for its freedom and it lost. The people needed to get over it and work within the system like Suzaku, either that or engage Britannia in the open field, instead of using their fellow countrymen as shields and sacrificial lambs.
I never defended the act of hiding behind the civilians like meat shields. But it still doesn't excuse the slaughtering of the civilians, who, in response to your comment about Japan having its chance for freedom, should be rightfully entitled to that very country to begin with. Not to mention that the comment about engaging in open combat vs. working within the system or "fighting unfairly" is a heavily loaded statement, as the system was stacked against the Japanese in every regard, and they didn't have the means to fight back on an open field.

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Seriously bro, watch episode 6 again. The Blood of the Samurai NEVER surrendered, they opened fire on Cornelia first, after which she said "It'd take too long to interrogate all of you, so you'll be punished here" and then she proceeds to kill em all. As for the civilians in Saitama Dalton clearly states that their intel indicated over half the people in the ghetto were actively aiding the terrorists.
Also, Cornelia would not have let the JLF in Lake Kawaguchi have their way. EVEN with Euphie inside she refused to give in to their demands because like most governments, Britannia does not negotiate with terrorists. Lelouch notes that the only thing stopping Cornelia from storming in and wiping out all the terrorists was the fact that Euphie was inside. So, had she not been there Cornelia would've solved the situation a lot faster, but with some civilian casualties (i.e student council and such)
Again, I reiterate, the Blood of the Samurai fought to defend their home base when Cornelia and her troops invaded. They weren't hiding behind anyone else, and besides, Cornelia was ready to purge them. She would have responded the same way either way. As for Saitama, see my response above. And regardless of whether other governments negotiate terrorists or not, Cornelia's intended response to the Lake Kawaguchi incident was still not justified.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:44   Link #7086
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Since when was Cornelia carrying out genocide?

She NEVER went around murdering Elevens for just being elevens. She was specifically targeting terrorist strongholds.

Some of the logic being used here is confusing. Britannia pushed the terrorists to start murdering their own people? How is that going to change anything when all these bombings and shit are killing tons of Elevens? "Sorry, we're doing this for Japan so we're gonna have to blow you up =/" What kind of bullshit reasoning is that? That's one of the first thing Lelouch tells Ougi and his lackeys, "Britannia will not fall to terrorism. It is merely a childish nuisance."

Japan had its chance to fight for its freedom and it lost. The people needed to get over it and work within the system like Suzaku, either that or engage Britannia in the open field, instead of using their fellow countrymen as shields and sacrificial lambs.



Seriously bro, watch episode 6 again. The Blood of the Samurai NEVER surrendered, they opened fire on Cornelia after she asked them to surrender (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmzBuZObtaM 5:14 I ) As for the civilians in Saitama Dalton clearly states that their intel indicated over half the people in the ghetto were actively aiding the terrorists.
Also, Cornelia would not have let the JLF in Lake Kawaguchi have their way. EVEN with Euphie inside she refused to give in to their demands because like most governments, Britannia does not negotiate with terrorists. Lelouch notes that the only thing stopping Cornelia from storming in and wiping out all the terrorists was the fact that Euphie was inside. So, had she not been there Cornelia would've solved the situation a lot faster, but with some civilian casualties (i.e student council and such)
I agree. I actually think the Cornelia's action made sense. Why would you show mercy on terrorists? Especially if they are shooting at you. I don't know what kind of military official would have such a rank if they were pansies.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:48   Link #7087
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I think half the whole point of the series IS to get the viewer to view things from a different perspective than what is typical. I've always seen it as an extremely interesting social expirement...one that has revealed how disgustingly mindless and controllable the masses are. Most people do see Lelouch as a basically good person in lieu of his flaws. And that, I find both hilarious and terrifying.
Yes, and the writer and Director are one of the "mindless and controllable" masses. If Lelouch was supposed to be horrible in the eyes of Taniguchi and Okouchi than they would have said so. From everything i have read the support the actions of Lelouch.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:54   Link #7088
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post

Again, I reiterate, the Blood of the Samurai fought to defend their home base when Cornelia and her troops invaded. They weren't hiding behind anyone else, and besides, Cornelia was ready to purge them. She would have responded the same way either way. As for Saitama, see my response above. And regardless of whether other governments negotiate terrorists or not, Cornelia's intended response to the Lake Kawaguchi incident was still not justified.
Really? That's an opinion, not a fact.

The fact is Cornelia asked them to surrender, and they responded by opening fire on her.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:58   Link #7089
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I agree. I actually think the Cornelia's action made sense. Why would you show mercy on terrorists? Especially if they are shooting at you. I don't know what kind of military official would have such a rank if they were pansies.
Yeah...apparently Cornelia was supposed to just roll over and die. NVM that as far as she knew, the elevens were responsible for killing 3 of her siblings...She wasn't a bad person, but she did have an axe to grind with the elevens.
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Old 2010-02-22, 18:59   Link #7090
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I think half the whole point of the series IS to get the viewer to view things from a different perspective than what is typical. I've always seen it as an extremely interesting social expirement...one that has revealed how disgustingly mindless and controllable the masses are. Most people do see Lelouch as a basically good person in lieu of his flaws. And that, I find both hilarious and terrifying.
I don't see Lelouch as a good person, he is quite the ass, but he was interesting. His plan was to bring peace to the world for his sister, and that was what he did. Also, many of his actions shows what kind of person he is. Yes, he probably killed tons of people. No it wasn't right. For the most part, he does stick to his values in the end. If he were a total asshole he would of took CC's code and lived forever, but he dies in the end.
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Old 2010-02-22, 19:17   Link #7091
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Really? That's an opinion, not a fact.

The fact is Cornelia asked them to surrender, and they responded by opening fire on her.

Yeah...apparently Cornelia was supposed to just roll over and die. NVM that as far as she knew, the elevens were responsible for killing 3 of her siblings...She wasn't a bad person, but she did have an axe to grind with the elevens.
Even if they did fire first, just surrendering would be an exercise in futility for their interests. Besides, where I'm going is that they found that they didn't make a dent in the superior Gloucesters of Cornelia's battalion. Roll over and die? As if. It was a completely one sided extermination of the opposition on part of the Britannians, and that's what I'm calling foul on.

And blaming the deaths of Lelouch and Nunnally entirely on the Japanese is totally ridiculous, as Britannia itself started the war for their own interests, and said incidence of their deaths could have happened on account of friendly fire. As for Clovis, while I don't consider him a monster, he was at fault for the Shinjuku massacre. What I'm saying is that in caring for the memory of her siblings, supposedly or actually dead, Cornelia was completely handwaving the deaths of even more Japanese. I'm surprised Euphie never caught onto this and called her out on it.

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Originally Posted by darkdarkdark
I don't see Lelouch as a good person, he is quite the ass, but he was interesting. His plan was to bring peace to the world for his sister, and that was what he did. Also, many of his actions shows what kind of person he is. Yes, he probably killed tons of people. No it wasn't right. For the most part, he does stick to his values in the end. If he were a total asshole he would of took CC's code and lived forever, but he dies in the end.
Which is somewhat more than can be said for Cornelia, on the sake of this topic.
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Old 2010-02-22, 19:56   Link #7092
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Yes, and the writer and Director are one of the "mindless and controllable" masses. If Lelouch was supposed to be horrible in the eyes of Taniguchi and Okouchi than they would have said so. From everything i have read the support the actions of Lelouch.
I don't think it's so much that they actually agree with his actions as it is support for the morals behind his actions. Follow your heart no matter what the cost. Finish what you start. Give the world to those you love. Albeit Lelouch's heart and mind were twisted by our standards, but not by his. Everything is relative, and the best we can do is the best we know how to do. I think that's the main message here. Most peoples' minds follow the same basic protocols but they're interpreted in different ways.

Ever read the story of Little Red Riding Hood from the Wolf's POV? It's quite tragic, actually.
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Old 2010-02-22, 21:28   Link #7093
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I don't think it's so much that they actually agree with his actions as it is support for the morals behind his actions. Follow your heart no matter what the cost. Finish what you start. Give the world to those you love. Albeit Lelouch's heart and mind were twisted by our standards, but not by his. Everything is relative, and the best we can do is the best we know how to do. I think that's the main message here. Most peoples' minds follow the same basic protocols but they're interpreted in different ways.

Ever read the story of Little Red Riding Hood from the Wolf's POV? It's quite tragic, actually.
That's still Taniguchi and Okouchi supporting horrific actions for stupid reasons. If I follow my heart and do something horrible, the fact that I followed my heart is not a good reason. Charles was following his heart when he killed a large portion of the world population.

Just like there is no excuse for Charles or Lelouch's actions, there is no excuse for supporting those actions.
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Old 2010-02-22, 21:30   Link #7094
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Just because they're depicting the actions in their work doesn't mean they support them, you know. Unless you're saying people who depict the Holocaust in movies support those actions as well.
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Old 2010-02-22, 21:41   Link #7095
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Even if they did fire first, just surrendering would be an exercise in futility for their interests. Besides, where I'm going is that they found that they didn't make a dent in the superior Gloucesters of Cornelia's battalion. Roll over and die? As if. It was a completely one sided extermination of the opposition on part of the Britannians, and that's what I'm calling foul on.

And blaming the deaths of Lelouch and Nunnally entirely on the Japanese is totally ridiculous, as Britannia itself started the war for their own interests, and said incidence of their deaths could have happened on account of friendly fire. As for Clovis, while I don't consider him a monster, he was at fault for the Shinjuku massacre. What I'm saying is that in caring for the memory of her siblings, supposedly or actually dead, Cornelia was completely handwaving the deaths of even more Japanese. I'm surprised Euphie never caught onto this and called her out on it.



Which is somewhat more than can be said for Cornelia, on the sake of this topic.
They had more than one option besides rolling over and dieing. They could do what they did and fire their guns at a Gloucester which they had to know would be pointless, or they could have SURRENDERED.

We can speculate whether or not Cornelia would've spared them, which is kind of pointless but for argument's sake I think that she would. Since she offered it then she had no reason to turn back and kill the guys if they laid down their weapons. 1) It would be extremely dishonorable and low of her, and she wouldn't be able to justify it.
2) She would lose the opportunity to interrogate them and hopefully find info about Zero and other terrorist cells.

Now, Japan wasn't an Utopia, in fact they were portrayed almost if not more xenophobic as Britannians. In the picture drams or w/e Lelouch gets beaten up by kids just for being Britannian. Japan also took over countries with economic power. At most it caused the war, and at the very least they gave Britannia reason to invade by being overly proud ethnocentric bastards.

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Just because they're depicting the actions in their work doesn't mean they support them, you know. Unless you're saying people who depict the Holocaust in movies support those actions as well.
Do holocaust movies try to present Hitler as the hero who's doing evil for good reason? And btw, in his mind and some people's minds he was doing it for the greater good...

That is basically what they did with Lelouch, except instead of losing like Hitler, Lelouch actually wins and takes over the world...
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Old 2010-02-22, 22:44   Link #7096
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They had more than one option besides rolling over and dieing. They could do what they did and fire their guns at a Gloucester which they had to know would be pointless, or they could have SURRENDERED.

We can speculate whether or not Cornelia would've spared them, which is kind of pointless but for argument's sake I think that she would. Since she offered it then she had no reason to turn back and kill the guys if they laid down their weapons. 1) It would be extremely dishonorable and low of her, and she wouldn't be able to justify it.
2) She would lose the opportunity to interrogate them and hopefully find info about Zero and other terrorist cells.

Now, Japan wasn't an Utopia, in fact they were portrayed almost if not more xenophobic as Britannians. In the picture drams or w/e Lelouch gets beaten up by kids just for being Britannian. Japan also took over countries with economic power. At most it caused the war, and at the very least they gave Britannia reason to invade by being overly proud ethnocentric bastards.
There's no question Japan wasn't innocent, but that doesn't excuse Britannia coming in and occupying them, stripping their culture, and treating them as second-class citizens. Not in the least. The minute they did that, they lost any hope at moral equivalency. They became the oppressors, and Japan became the oppressed in a stupidly one-sided fashion.

Quote:
Do holocaust movies try to present Hitler as the hero who's doing evil for good reason? And btw, in his mind and some people's minds he was doing it for the greater good...

That is basically what they did with Lelouch, except instead of losing like Hitler, Lelouch actually wins and takes over the world...
Which, at the very least is revealed to be part of a Thanatos Gambit for world peace. (Not that I agree with it, but given how he resorted to it after what had just happened, I understand.)
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Old 2010-02-22, 23:52   Link #7097
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Just because they're depicting the actions in their work doesn't mean they support them, you know. Unless you're saying people who depict the Holocaust in movies support those actions as well.
Watch the ending of Death Note, and then watch the ending of Code Geass. One dies a humiliating death where his entire character is laid bare showing what a horrible person he is, how he really had become corrupted and believed he was a god, the other is a tragic death in which everyone who finds out the truth instantly agrees with the main character and the ending talks about how great a person he is.

Taniguchi and Okouchi are far more like Terry Goodkind than Tsugumi Ohba
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Old 2010-02-23, 00:32   Link #7098
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That's because Light was left with practically no redeeming moral qualities. Lelouch had become a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds meets Death Seeker of sorts. In the Fridge Logic fueled world of CG, Lelouch's scheme did actually work, which is why he was fondly reflected on by those who knew his intentions behind his final act.
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Old 2010-02-23, 00:56   Link #7099
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Yes but they work because Okouchi wrote them as working,, in the real world people who ally to fight another nation seldom stay allies.
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Old 2010-02-23, 01:14   Link #7100
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I know. Hence my use of the term Fridge Logic.

For the record, I consider it a Downer Ending.
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