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Old 2010-04-11, 09:42   Link #7261
ZeroSama
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Some could argue that Lelouch would have ended up doing more good as Emperor and making peace with the alliance instead of starting the war, dabbling in genocide and becoming a "martyr"
Some could argue Lelouch could've ended up doing more good/causing less harm if he skipped the first 45 eps of stuff and just killed Charles and geassed the royal court right off the bat.
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Old 2010-04-11, 09:48   Link #7262
Unellmay
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The ending was awful
hope there's a 3 season though
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Old 2010-04-11, 14:50   Link #7263
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Lelouch expelled the noble titles, ranks, and privileges. He also burnt the Holy Mausoluem where all the rulers of Britannia were buried. Mind you, both acts were disfavored by the public and gave him infamy. Which was the point.

The appearance was he wanted all the power to himself, considering the mausoluem nothing but a reliec - thus having it destroyed. He was after to be the most hatred person, yes? This was actually killing two birds with one stone. He opened up the way for Nunnally to rule without the cumbersome pompous nobility hounding her, and he was in a particularly malicious light after doing these two things.
Actually those things made Lelouch popular, he was believed to be a man of the people, instead of the previous Emperors who cared only about themselves and the other nobles. Keep in mind that the Aristocracy of Britannia was not popular within the Britannian people themselves.

Personally, getting rid of the nobility does not make you unpopular with the people as can be seen with the French, and the only people who hated the end of the Samurai where the Samurai themselves.
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Old 2010-04-11, 16:27   Link #7264
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
the only people who hated the end of the Samurai where the Samurai themselves.
And the swordmakers, armormakers and a dozen other war affiliated professions.
Plus, everything is a chain. It affects everyone and not just some. Most people in a society are used to have it as it is and don't really like changes, not even if they are for their own merit.
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Old 2010-04-11, 16:47   Link #7265
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I only recall it being mentioned that the rest of the world approved of Lelouch's original changes. Nothing was said about the general population of Britannia itself.

We do know that numerous nobles were objecting violently to the abolishment of their titles, as Jeremiah came in saying that he had finished subduing an Earl and his forces, with Lelouch laughing about how "unpopular" he was. This at least implies that the nobles had a fair share of people under them who disapproved of Lelouch's changes. They could have just been bribed, but going against the Emperor of Britannia himself would be a very risky thing to do, implying that they may have believed in the previous system very strongly.

I'd imagine people like Viletta would be upset as well, as nobility was something to strive for. The loss of nobility was likely akin to destroying the dreams of many people.

Lastly, we don't see nobles abusing the commoners the same way Britannians abuse Numbers. Even though nobles would be considered "better" than commoners, there is still a difference between this and seeing a group as second class citizens. This would mean there was less tension between the social classes.
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Old 2010-04-11, 17:32   Link #7266
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Playing hot potato with Lelouch always ends badly, because he usually wins. Not with supremacy, not with strength, but with strategy and cunning improvising.
Don't leave out the magic gizmo that thralls at will millions of people. All the brains in the world wouldn't help him win without that.

So what kind of political system is the world left with at the end of the series? From aristocracy to totalitarian monocracy?
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Old 2010-04-12, 15:49   Link #7267
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
So what kind of political system is the world left with at the end of the series? From aristocracy to totalitarian monocracy?
Ill bet on federative structure, with Britannia in charge "on words" - cause in the ending we could see a kind of delegation meeting with Nunnally (evil-looking Zero behind her included, lol). Even if most of the britannian military units were destroyed due to some "neverending peace all over the world" official programms, its competent soldiers and officers are still exist - so does its well-developed industry, which could start to make huge amounts of military production in any moment. Also every new government of the former colonies/independent countries should worry about conservative britannian elite - all those men, who believe in britannian superiority. This makes me think that all new political powers are still over Britannian reign - official or hidden. Political situation in the Empire - lol, we do have an incompetent and unskilled girl as the empress, yesterday-pvt Suzaku as her counselor, geassed on obeying Zero prince (and what are his thoughts when he is not ordered by Zero to do something? It looks psychodelic...) etc... It is obvious that the future political course is a question of someone's influence on Nunnally... So, it is a pretty unstable, but viable system.

p.s. If the answer was mentioned somewhere in canon - just sorry, Ive never seen.
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Old 2010-04-13, 21:56   Link #7268
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That system is not only unstable but not very effective. Britannia had a very radical switch in national policy from one of aggressive expansionism to solving hunger and peace. All those factories that once produced Sutherlands, weapons, planes etc to fuel the endless conflicts would have to lay off workers, or shut down. The army would have to be reduced from millions to a couple hundred thousand, so all those soldiers would be coming home to unemployment. Add to that those nobles that went into hiding to bid their time...There's bound to be someone out there just as intelligent as Schneizel and Lelouch, who is not happy with this new direction . Getting an army would be very easy, and revolution/civil war would be right around the corner.
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Old 2010-04-14, 02:01   Link #7269
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So, maybe the only chance for the new world order to survive... that Suzaku would command Schneizel "to deal with this" (economics, social problems etc). He looks a lot more competent in such a questions than any other of survived characters =)
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Old 2010-04-14, 04:17   Link #7270
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Originally Posted by Ten-Go View Post
So, maybe the only chance for the new world order to survive... that Suzaku would command Schneizel "to deal with this" (economics, social problems etc). He looks a lot more competent in such a questions than any other of survived characters =)
thats what he's there for
thats why Lelouch geassed him in the first place
he needed someone to help suzaku deal with all the shit that follows his death
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Old 2010-04-14, 05:08   Link #7271
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
thats what he's there for
thats why Lelouch geassed him in the first place
he needed someone to help suzaku deal with all the shit that follows his death
So, does this mean that he didn't believe in the story about a possibility to gain an age of peace by sacrificing himself? It was a play for Nunnally to convince her that Lelouch wasn't simple tired from life, his mistakes etc suicide-boy (or finished project, he have destroyed old Britannina, overwhelmed every interesting enemy, nothing to do on Earth anymore) ? Looks like a typical Zero-planned operation to make the world believe in something =) Kallen and her supporters in community cried a river about never to come kalulu future, but Lelouch himself lol'd in the grave... Im very sad and going to play russian roulette to know is there a reason to live in such a world or not =(
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Old 2010-04-14, 05:58   Link #7272
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So... it is a world where Lelouch gave up on life, created mizery for billions, ordered to be murdered because he was not able to do it himself, his useless sister rules, counseled by his thralled brother who is a slave to his killer, who is impersonating him to fool the world, while all his ex allies know the truth.

...Lelouch achieved shit.
Where is the great ending again?
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Old 2010-04-14, 12:48   Link #7273
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Can we make fun of anyone who thinks the ending is the best ever?
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Old 2010-04-14, 12:53   Link #7274
Haak
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Can we make fun of anyone who thinks the ending is the best ever?
Look, this is world where war apparently has no effect on economy, or if it does, economy has no effect on the standard of living.

So let's just stop kicking the dog already.
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Old 2010-04-14, 12:56   Link #7275
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Can we make fun of anyone who thinks the ending is the best ever?
Yes, make fun of me!


...Could we at least stop pretending the ending came about because Lelouch was being an idiot? Okouchi seemed to think it's totally awesome.

When I watch anime, I don't care so much about the realism as about the symbolism, and while the majority of people here obviously disagrees, I believe the ending is a very nice one. "The only ones allowed to shoot are the ones prepared to be shot" - that's the kind of person Lelouch was.
A peace treaty wouldn't have fit. At all. Lelouch and Suzaku set out to "break the never ending chain of hated", not to become the second Relena Peacecraft.
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Old 2010-04-14, 13:26   Link #7276
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
ZR wasn't the best plan, it was a plan made by a man with a death wish.... Relena was naive and a fool, Lelouch learns that he needs to create a world. But he eventually forgets that and sets off to look for a death.
Actually, there is no evidence that Lelouch could have come up with a better plan (just another plan). He didn't have a death wish so much as he felt the need to take responisbility for his actions that way, and Okouchi himself considers the ending a happy one. He never so much as implied that Lelouch made an error in judgment - quite the oppisite, in fact.

[Relena was a fool? I'm not so sure about that, but, hum, wrong forum. xD]


Geass cult... I'd rather talk about Clovis, but all right. xD
*slowly backs out*
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Old 2010-04-14, 13:50   Link #7277
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Yes, there is evidence he could've did things differently. Though he chose not to. I just don't feel like stating them. Let someone else do that.
People have made suggestions for a "better plan" over and over again, but that doesn't mean Lelouch could have come up with any of them. Okouchi seemed to think Zero Requiem was perfect in every way, so regardless of whether Lelouch sought punishment or not, he might have picked a similar route.
I have never seen any evidence that Zero Requiem wasn't one of the best, if not the best, option Lelouch could have picked in the CG universe to establish world peace (that is, from the POV of the creators), so if you make such a claim, please give at least one example.

Quote:
What are we going to talk about Clovis, then? His hair? His outfit? His godhax chess skillz? That last one was a joke.
Hey, he probably came closer to beating Lelouch that one time than most people! xD
Too bad he lost all other 36 times...

Quote:
Though I did like how CG implemented Chess as a sort of symbological purpose.
Agreed~
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Old 2010-04-14, 14:14   Link #7278
Xander
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
When I watch anime, I don't care so much about the realism as about the symbolism, and while the majority of people here obviously disagrees, I believe the ending is a very nice one.
That's, I think, what lies at the heart of the issue.

The ending, from a cynical, realistic and materialistic perspective, is a complete waste of time. Zero Requiem will, even in the best case scenario, only result in a temporary peace. I don't think anyone who tries to think about these matters seriously can possibly deny that.

However...Lelouch, as a protagonist, and Code Geass, as a story, are actually all about idealism. Think about it. On the most basic level, the important thing for Lelouch was to create a world where Nunnally could live happily and without being mistreated.

The new status quo, even if it is a fragile one that cannot possibly last, was created for the purposes of accomplishing this. That's the main idea.

Even if everything could crumble afterwards, depending on how those who are left deal with the situation, the point is that Lelouch was successful. In a way, it's more of a Pyrrhic victory than anything else, but that's what makes it attractive from a symbolic, emotional and literary perspective in spite of its critical flaws.

The best stories, naturally, are those that work both ways, but Code Geass is interesting enough for what it is.

Last edited by Xander; 2010-04-14 at 15:48.
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Old 2010-04-14, 14:19   Link #7279
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Lelouch: I command you to be happy!

...Wow, too easy and good to do that; let's just kill millions, commit suicide, make allusions to religion and throw in idealism and symbols around stuff.
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Old 2010-04-14, 14:24   Link #7280
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*nods happily at Xander*

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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Lelouch: I command you to be happy!

...Wow, too easy and good to do that; let's just kill millions, commit suicide, make allusions to religion and throw in idealism and symbols around stuff.
Yep, taking away everyone's free will would have been so much more awesome. It would also have fit incredibly well with Lelouch's beliefs and his reasons for rejecting Damocles and Ragnaro-... oh, wait.
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