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Old 2010-09-30, 22:52   Link #7801
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
hmm maybe its fanmade by the looks of it?? Thats my guess anyways could be wrong though

I don't care what anyone says I think Viletta is damn sexy with her hair down and in her amnesiac phase.
Oh hell yes Villetta is sexy...on the outside.
On the inside she's a succubus that drained all the hope right out of the show!


Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The issue with Villetta isn't her looks, at least at that time. It's what she was responsible for that matters.

Been caught up in a debate in the TVTropes WMG page of CG. Evidently I'm a Single Issue Wonk for raising a stink about the Zero Requiem, which is just a personal 'opinion' apparently. I won't deny the opinion part, but it isn't an uncommon one. The troper says I'm watching the wrong show if I'm not expecting it to end the way it did, even after the incongruencies I pointed out (dogs kicked as part of ZR, ZR being a personal choice and that there were other options, etc.) that contradict the atonement angle, and states that it's supposed to be a Tragedy, even though there are survivors at the end (not to mention that not all of them deserve it). The problem with said troper calling me a Single Issue Wonk is that she won't hesitate to defend Suzaku.
I saw that.
What is that woman's problem?
In classic tragedy the hero dies during the Epic Win not an Epic Fail or Downer Ending.
Darth Vader has a classic tragic ending.
He's a hero who wishes to do good and doen't fulfill his destiny until he sacrifices himself to save his son.
What Lelouch does is become the Big Bad in order to wash away the stain of something he is responsible for (Princess Massacre) and to atone for killing his father (which is what the R2 Guidebook says...and you know how I feel about that ).
Anyhow, that young lady needs to chillax and realize she doesn't know what classic tragedy is.
Even Okouchi said in the Continue 42 article (October 2008) that Lelouch is a "Modern Hero" that doesn't conform to classical standards.

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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
That's obviously just fanart.

Keep in mind that manga is almost always in black and white with the rare color pictured. I think Trigun is the only manga I remember having that ends with a color picture. The art looks nothing like any of the code geass manga released anyway, and as already mentioned Taniguchi and Okouchi have flat out stated that Lelouch died.

Also the art is bad from a professional standpoint, and the background is obviously just a picture of some clouds that someone drew over.

I thought as much, but some people were touting this as "proof" of RR/LL or whatever they call him now.

Just checked with you ladies and gents to see what you thought.
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Old 2010-09-30, 23:50   Link #7802
azul120
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Ah, the modern hero thing. I do compare him to Kurt Cobain for certain reasons. :P

And succubus seems like a pretty good description of Villetta.
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Old 2010-10-01, 00:14   Link #7803
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
In classic tragedy the hero dies during the Epic Win not an Epic Fail or Downer Ending.
What about Oedipus?

Spoiler for if you really don't want to be spoiled about Oedipus:
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Old 2010-10-01, 00:24   Link #7804
GundamFan0083
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Wasn't he deceived into thinking that his foster parents were his real parents.

I don't remember that story very well...it's by Sophocles right?
Is that the one where the Oracle of Delphi tells him he's going to mate with his mom and kill his father?

I ask because if I remember correctly Oedipus has to kill his father and marry his mother to become king of Thebes.

Doesn't he live at the end?
In exile or some such?

Anyhoo, Lelouch fully knows what he's doing and Charles was such a monster that Lelouch litterally saved the world by killing him.

There was no logical reason for the Zero Requiem IMHO.
It was a good idea that was badly executed.
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Old 2010-10-01, 00:30   Link #7805
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Yeah. The only explanation was that he went off the deep end after Nunnally's apparent demise and the Black Knights betraying him. The Zero Requiem involved him being worse than before.
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Old 2010-10-01, 00:42   Link #7806
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Wasn't he deceived into thinking that his foster parents were his real parents.

I don't remember that story very well...it's by Sophocles right?
Is that the one where the Oracle of Delphi tells him he's going to mate with his mom and kill his father?

I ask because if I remember correctly Oedipus has to kill his father and marry his mother to become king of Thebes.

Doesn't he live at the end?
In exile or some such?
The way I remember it is this...

Spoiler for more Oedipus spoilers:

Quote:
Anyhoo, Lelouch fully knows what he's doing and Charles was such a monster that Lelouch litterally saved the world by killing him.

There was no logical reason for the Zero Requiem IMHO.
It was a good idea that was badly executed.
Agreed.
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Old 2010-10-01, 13:05   Link #7807
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Lelouch fully knows what he's doing and Charles was such a monster that Lelouch litterally saved the world by killing him.

There was no logical reason for the Zero Requiem IMHO.
It was a good idea that was badly executed.
Charles was certainly a bad parent by sending Lelouch x Nunnally away to Japan. Perhaps if he had foreseen the consequences of his actions, the Emperor might have kept his kids around by sending them to the mother of Euphemia x Cornelia because Marianne was probably close her. But what I don't understand is why would V.V. even care about Marianne changing Charles when she and C.C. were all in it together?

The Zero Requiem was a poorly executed plot because I feel that the producers left a lot of important details out of the story so that they could conclude the story in the fastest manner possible. I might have liked the ZR if the writers didn't rush through it so quickly.

Season 2 was a condense version of Season One, in my opinion. It recycled the same ideas in disquise to get to the end as soon as possible. It's rare to appreciate something that lost its focus by ignoring the important details of the story.
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Old 2010-10-01, 13:48   Link #7808
Nogitsune
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Actually, Zero Requiem was portrayed as a Good Thing, so I don't think it's just the result of Lelouch finally losing it.

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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
Perhaps if he had foreseen the consequences of his actions, the Emperor might have kept his kids around by sending them to the mother of Euphemia x Cornelia because Marianne was probably close her.
I doubt Marianne was close to any of the other consorts. After all, she used to be a commoner, meaning most in the Britannian court would have looked down on her. Even without that, they were all rivals. Lelouch never says that there are people in the court besides Euphie that are unlikely to be involved in his mother's death, and he even suspected Cornelia, who he probably knew didn't have any reason to kill Marianne... except if her mother was in on the plot.

Lelouch spent a lot of time with Euphie, and Cornelia spent a lot of time with Marianne. However, that doesn't mean their mother approved. I mean, Lelouch also spent quite a bit of time with Clovis - if Marianne had been close to two or more of the other royal consorts, Lelouch would probably have had more doubts.

Quote:
But what I don't understand is why would V.V. even care about Marianne changing Charles when she and C.C. were all in it together?
Because he wanted Charles all for himself? Echem. Well, plans can be changed. Just because you are all in on something now doesn't mean it will still be the same in two years. Seems V.V. should have been more worried about Lelouch changing C.C., though.
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Old 2010-10-01, 14:17   Link #7809
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That ZR was portrayed as a good thing was a complete asspull. Not to mention a total farce, given the karma houdini/designated monkey factor.
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Old 2010-10-01, 14:39   Link #7810
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
That ZR was portrayed as a good thing was a complete asspull. Not to mention a total farce, given the karma houdini/designated monkey factor.
And yet the creators obviously didn't feel like portraying Lelouch as someone who'd simply lost it. They went out of their way to present Zero Requiem in a favourable light, something that probably was not his only option, but one of the best he had.
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Old 2010-10-01, 14:43   Link #7811
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ZR may have possibly been inspired by the BKs and Schniezel teaming up against a common enemy, but it's still the result of Heroic Resolve failure at best. I'm telling you right now: being a common enemy of multiple factions, whether or not to intentionally set up an Enemy Mine situation, does NOTHING to address why those factions fight each other to begin with. And if everybody was appreciative or fond of forgive & forget, Lelouch wouldn't be a Cosmic Plaything to begin with.
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Old 2010-10-01, 15:10   Link #7812
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Exactly. Kodai Okuda's Continuation Fic, Dirge of Daedalus, actually addresses the angle of true unity through forgiveness, rather than the Genghis ploy that was ZR.
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Old 2010-10-01, 15:25   Link #7813
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Exactly. Kodai Okuda's Continuation Fic, Dirge of Daedalus, actually addresses the angle of true unity through forgiveness, rather than the Genghis ploy that was ZR.
Actually, the "having a common enemy" thing worked just fine in real life on several occasions. Zero Requiem is definitely pushing it, but it's fiction, and it's Code Geass. Personally, I'm fine with it, and so are a lot of other fans.
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Old 2010-10-01, 17:08   Link #7814
Cephei Mordred
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
But what I don't understand is why would V.V. even care about Marianne changing Charles when she and C.C. were all in it together?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has joked "Lelouch should simply enjoy his Nunnally/CC/Kallen/whoever else harem and forget about trying to save the world."

Perhaps V.V. was afraid Charles was doing that.
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Old 2010-10-01, 20:06   Link #7815
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Actually, the "having a common enemy" thing worked just fine in real life on several occasions. Zero Requiem is definitely pushing it, but it's fiction, and it's Code Geass. Personally, I'm fine with it, and so are a lot of other fans.
Actually, it's the contrivance of it all.
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Old 2010-10-03, 13:44   Link #7816
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It's certainly contrived, no doubt, but....while I don't really know or care about that troper you're dealing with, in all honesty, it's not like there aren't any ways to respond to some of your objections. Besides, I'm not much of a fan of excessive dogpiling or...something else I won't describe.

Not to mention that I usually find it more interesting and intellectually challenging to play the role of devil's advocate...instead of belonging to the divine prosecution (or Holy Inquisition...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120
The troper says I'm watching the wrong show if I'm not expecting it to end the way it did, even after the incongruencies I pointed out (dogs kicked as part of ZR, ZR being a personal choice and that there were other options, etc.) that contradict the atonement angle, and states that it's supposed to be a Tragedy, even though there are survivors at the end (not to mention that not all of them deserve it). The problem with said troper calling me a Single Issue Wonk is that she won't hesitate to defend Suzaku.
I wouldn't say you're watching the wrong show, that's far too presumptuous, but some of those supposedly incongruent events can be explained by interpreting them from a different angle. In other words, there is no such thing as an "absolute truth" about any and all of these matters.

For a start, there is no such requirement that tragedies should not leave survivors or that they should all "deserve it" as you've proposed. The tragedy (and the entire main story for that matter) is Lelouch's, first and foremost, and only to some extent that of those surrounding him. In addition, the issue isn't simply one of "atonement" but also of "punishment" and there is no such thing as a law stating that a character's way of finding both needs to be universally correct and perfectly rational. Humans are both rational and irrational, after all, unless you're going to say otherwise.

Real people who could have easily lived commit suicide over far more insipid matters on a daily basis.

What's more, the fact that he had other choices also contributes to making it a tragedy. So, rather than just being a contradiction and nothing else, I would say there is a tragic irony involved (or more than one, in fact, if we were to make a list). Lelouch had not just one but many choices and chances to escape his fate. Plot contrivances stood in his way but also his own stubbornness and way of thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
There was no logical reason for the Zero Requiem IMHO.
True, but not all human acts, in reality and in fiction, are based on logic alone. Lelouch's included,

It's not like the show hides the fact Lelouch went through an almost literal sea of pain and suffering before Zero Requiem and, you know...perhaps that should have an impact on his plans?

The fact that his decision is portrayed sympathetically doesn't mean it isn't the result of a less-than-favorable environment. It's not necessarily what Lelouch originally wanted to do, to say nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
They went out of their way to present Zero Requiem in a favourable light, something that probably was not his only option, but one of the best he had.
...I have a couple of objections. One, the show does not hide the fact that Zero Requiem is an incredibly painful thing to do for Lelouch and, just as well, that the results are (ideally and unrealistically) positive for the world doesn't mean said suffering was "good" for him. Two, it also does not deny that the plan involves committing actions that can be morally classified as evil regardless of the outcome. And three, the fact that there were other options is both fairly implicit in the actual show and explicit in stuff like the Mutuality short story.

So, basically...the show could have been more consistent in execution as well as better written and explained, no doubt, but I don't subscribe to the idea that only negative things can be said, even about something as contrived as Zero Requiem (which, once again, wasn't really the ending I hoped for).

Last edited by Xander; 2010-10-03 at 14:03.
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Old 2010-10-03, 15:25   Link #7817
faiz blaster
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
But what I don't understand is why would V.V. even care about Marianne changing Charles when she and C.C. were all in it together?
Actually, I always wondered if that was really the real reason.

I don't remember exactly when it was, but at some point C.C. hinted that V.V. in fact had feelings for Marianne. At the time it occurred to me that the whole "Charles changing"-thing was just an excuse and the real reason was because V.V. was jealous that he couldn't have the woman he loved.
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Old 2010-10-03, 15:54   Link #7818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
It's certainly contrived, no doubt, but....while I don't really know or care about that troper you're dealing with, in all honesty, it's not like there aren't any ways to respond to some of your objections. Besides, I'm not much of a fan of excessive dogpiling or...something else I won't describe.

Not to mention that I usually find it more interesting and intellectually challenging to play the role of devil's advocate...instead of belonging to the divine prosecution (or Holy Inquisition...).



I wouldn't say you're watching the wrong show, that's far too presumptuous, but some of those supposedly incongruent events can be explained by interpreting them from a different angle. In other words, there is no such thing as an "absolute truth" about any and all of these matters.

For a start, there is no such requirement that tragedies should not leave survivors or that they should all "deserve it" as you've proposed. The tragedy (and the entire main story for that matter) is Lelouch's, first and foremost, and only to some extent that of those surrounding him. In addition, the issue isn't simply one of "atonement" but also of "punishment" and there is no such thing as a law stating that a character's way of finding both needs to be universally correct and perfectly rational. Humans are both rational and irrational, after all, unless you're going to say otherwise.

Real people who could have easily lived commit suicide over far more insipid matters on a daily basis.

What's more, the fact that he had other choices also contributes to making it a tragedy. So, rather than just being a contradiction and nothing else, I would say there is a tragic irony involved (or more than one, in fact, if we were to make a list). Lelouch had not just one but many choices and chances to escape his fate. Plot contrivances stood in his way but also his own stubbornness and way of thinking.



True, but not all human acts, in reality and in fiction, are based on logic alone. Lelouch's included,

It's not like the show hides the fact Lelouch went through an almost literal sea of pain and suffering before Zero Requiem and, you know...perhaps that should have an impact on his plans?

The fact that his decision is portrayed sympathetically doesn't mean it isn't the result of a less-than-favorable environment. It's not necessarily what Lelouch originally wanted to do, to say nothing else.
Oh yes. Given what you said, it most certainly IS a tragedy. What the troper was arguing was that it was because Lelouch was unwilling to change, which doesn't follow, because would he then go through with what he did as part of the Zero Requiem? I know blade would have a field day with that one.

Long story short, There Are No Therapists would be a lot closer to the truth.

I guess I'm just a stickler for the Karma Houdinis getting the Happy Ending thing, because included were the instigators of his final descent. In other words... DOES. NOT. COMPUTE. That happy wedding pic was like a huge middle finger to me.

And not only was Zero Requiem contrived, so was Lelouch's Trauma Conga Line that led up to it.
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Old 2010-10-04, 18:25   Link #7819
Cephei Mordred
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To be fair now, would there have been a way to punish Oghi and Viletta without their child bearing the brunt of it as well?
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Old 2010-10-04, 19:24   Link #7820
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
...I have a couple of objections. One, the show does not hide the fact that Zero Requiem is an incredibly painful thing to do for Lelouch and, just as well, that the results are (ideally and unrealistically) positive for the world doesn't mean said suffering was "good" for him.
I never said Zero Requiem was good for Lelouch. It certainly gave him satisfaction and went well with his "pride", but I believe he could have been a lot happier.

Quote:
Two, it also does not deny that the plan involves committing actions that can be morally classified as evil regardless of the outcome.
And yet the outcome for the world we saw was a happy one, and that is what will probably stick with the majority of viewers.

Quote:
And three, the fact that there were other options is both fairly implicit in the actual show and explicit in stuff like the Mutuality short story.
In the show? I don't remember that. In the Mutuality story? Sure, I never denied that. However, it's said there that perhaps (or was it probably?) there would have been other options that did not involve Lelouch's death. Nothing was said about them being better for the world as a whole, or even less bloody.
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