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Old 2010-10-23, 08:28   Link #7861
eaglei3
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
What threat would a 10 year old Lelouch have over V.V. ? The fact that he killed Marianne out of jealousy led to his undoing when C.C. formed a contract with Lelouch. In turn, Lelouch turned against Charles and Marianne immoral plans with regards to the Ragonook. What sort of protection is it to send Lelouch to Japan by Charles decree, only to have Lelouch socially damaged to the extent that he wanted to destroy his father's plans. It might have been better for Charles to geass Lelouch as well in the same manner as Nunnally from knowing the truth. Perhaps Charles wanted to show Lelouch the pain and suffering that he and V.V. went through as children.
I don't think it matters how Lelouch wanted to unravel Charles plan in the context of V.V. I believe you missed the point where V.V. hated Lelouch and Nunally for being the children of Marianne, whom he despised. No matter what Charles would have done to the two of them to keep them around, V.V. still would have wanted to kill them.
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Old 2010-10-23, 14:09   Link #7862
darthfury78
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Originally Posted by eaglei3 View Post
I don't think it matters how Lelouch wanted to unravel Charles plan in the context of V.V. I believe you missed the point where V.V. hated Lelouch and Nunally for being the children of Marianne, whom he despised. No matter what Charles would have done to the two of them to keep them around, V.V. still would have wanted to kill them.
I am well aware that V.V. wanted Lelouch and Nunnally dead as well. Then again, he was an immortal child who only wanted Charles for himself. Thus, V.V. believed that Marianne was going to take Charles away from the contract that he had made with him. Nonetheless, V.V.'s actions led to his undoing because of a simple jealousy for Marianne.
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Old 2010-10-23, 15:59   Link #7863
azul120
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Of course, it would have worked if Lelouch had Odysseus' brain instead, lol.
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Old 2010-11-16, 05:40   Link #7864
darthfury78
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I read an article that in the original script for Code Geass R2, Schniezel killed Charles and proclaimed himself 99th Emperor of Britannia. Now that would have been an interesting plot twist towards the Zero Requiem. The way the final version of the R2 played out, the story made Schniezel a victim of Lelouch's dictatorship. It appeared that the original format of the second season was to focus the attention on the other characters and less on Lelouch. However, everything was pointed at Lelouch in the revised script by placing him on top of the world. One could speculate that Code Geass R2 was created to prevent a continuation of the ongoing storyline by creating a peaceful world for Nunnally. A sister's wish that was fulfilled at the cost of his life.

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Old 2010-11-16, 12:01   Link #7865
Xander
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I read an article that in the original script for Code Geass R2, Schniezel killed Charles and proclaimed himself 99th Emperor of Britannia.
Source?

At this point in time, anyone can claim anything without any real evidence.
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Old 2010-11-16, 15:23   Link #7866
darthfury78
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Source?

At this point in time, anyone can claim anything without any real evidence.
I'll provide the source later on.
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Old 2010-11-17, 02:57   Link #7867
azul120
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I read an article that in the original script for Code Geass R2, Schniezel killed Charles and proclaimed himself 99th Emperor of Britannia. Now that would have been an interesting plot twist towards the Zero Requiem. The way the final version of the R2 played out, the story made Schniezel a victim of Lelouch's dictatorship. It appeared that the original format of the second season was to focus the attention on the other characters and less on Lelouch. However, everything was pointed at Lelouch in the revised script by placing him on top of the world. One could speculate that Code Geass R2 was created to prevent a continuation of the ongoing storyline by creating a peaceful world for Nunnally. A sister's wish that was fulfilled at the cost of his life.
That it had to be at the cost of his life was written in such a way that it was because he did it as such because he had been almost entirely abandoned due to the betrayal and thought Nunnally was dead when he started.
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Old 2010-11-17, 18:51   Link #7868
darthfury78
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That it had to be at the cost of his life was written in such a way that it was because he did it as such because he had been almost entirely abandoned due to the betrayal and thought Nunnally was dead when he started.
However, from a creative perspective, if the producers wanted to make sure that Code Geass did not progress to a third season, this is the option they would choose. Especially since the original storyline was drastically changed from want was originally intended, according to Lelouch's voice actor. The second season clearly overlaps the first season because the settings are so similar to each other. The ending is the only part that was planned. However, I feel that it arrived too soon by leaving a lot of important information out of the story so that they could get to the end as quickly as possible.

If the story of Code Geass were to continue, it would have to be from where the first season left off instead of the second season.
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Old 2010-11-17, 19:31   Link #7869
azul120
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I don't disbelieve that the ending was planned regardless of everything else. It's just that the buildup they chose to go with was an overly contrived series of misfortunate events that could have been averted. And that makes me angry.
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Old 2010-11-18, 02:40   Link #7870
Xander
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Conversely, the fact that some of those events were contrived does make their execution questionable, but the idea of knowing they could have been averted only adds to the irony and tragedy of the same, as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't necessarily make me angry. It really depends on how each person wants to look at something like that.

Regarding the issue of making a sequel that ignores the second season...I wouldn't bet on it myself. Not that I want a sequel anyway, but if and when it comes to pass...I'd be very surprised if such a thing happened so easily.
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Old 2010-11-18, 03:14   Link #7871
azul120
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Conversely, the fact that some of those events were contrived does make their execution questionable, but the idea of knowing they could have been averted only adds to the irony and tragedy of the same, as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't necessarily make me angry. It really depends on how each person wants to look at something like that.
What makes me angry is that the people who bore more than a little of that responsibility for that final turn, not to mention the surviving but not entirely reformed adversaries, got the happy ending instead. I came out with the warped aesop that in the end, it's still a crapsack world. C. C. was right though:
"One cannot bind others and the world to himself. Determine one's fate. If, one allows the thoughts of others, to go beyond that of the world. His existence is merely one which is drifting by the waves." Lelouch never really got to live. He spent too much of himself and let himself break under the isolation and lies.
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Old 2010-11-18, 10:41   Link #7872
Xander
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What makes me angry is that the people who bore more than a little of that responsibility for that final turn, not to mention the surviving but not entirely reformed adversaries, got the happy ending instead.
Yes, we've gone over that point at least a couple of times before too.

I don't particularly like it either, but simply acknowledge the unavoidable fact that even in reality this isn't impossible or unheard of either. Good people don't have a monopoly on happiness.

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I came out with the warped aesop that in the end, it's still a crapsack world. C. C. was right though:
"One cannot bind others and the world to himself. Determine one's fate. If, one allows the thoughts of others, to go beyond that of the world. His existence is merely one which is drifting by the waves." Lelouch never really got to live. He spent too much of himself and let himself break under the isolation and lies.
You could say so, but then again a cynical person would also apply that same reflection to the real world. Most people, no matter what they do, don't even become footnotes in history.

At least Lelouch accomplished what he wanted to do in this world, whether or not it happens to last, and had the ability to choose the manner of his exit from the stage.

His suffering may have prevented him from having a more fulfilling and productive life, but it's not like he is the first character or person to meet an avoidable and premature end.
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Old 2010-11-19, 00:53   Link #7873
Aquaman OS
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I still think they choose to kill him because he had done some very bad things regardless of his motives or likability. He really wasn't much better than Cornelia or Schnizel.

Lelouch was at heart, a very dangerous man who did some very ugly things with little to no remorse. Regardless of how he may have treated the people he cared about.
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Old 2010-11-19, 01:14   Link #7874
azul120
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I still think they choose to kill him because he had done some very bad things regardless of his motives or likability. He really wasn't much better than Cornelia or Schnizel.

Lelouch was at heart, a very dangerous man who did some very ugly things with little to no remorse. Regardless of how he may have treated the people he cared about.
That's a bit much. He had his share of remorse for what he did. And not much better than Cornelia or Schneizel? The former mercilessly razed civilians on behalf of Britannia, and the latter manipulated practically everyone and was responsible for millions of deaths.

While he did some very bad things, Lelouch was also a victim of extraordinarily bad luck. And basically, the Zero Requiem could have been avoided had a certain idiot not thought about getting some poontang pie.
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Old 2010-11-19, 01:27   Link #7875
Aquaman OS
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Lelouch slaughtered the Geass cult (which were all unarmed scientists and test subjects) in the name of Shirley. He also manipulated Toudou onto his side after secretly killing Toudou's own boss. He ditched all the Black Knights and left them to their fates at the end of season 1 (something they should never forgive) And of course he'd caused all kinds of deaths in the Zero Requiem. All without the slightest hint of remorse.

And enough about Ougi seriously. He's guilty of sneaking around behind Lelouch's back, and not having loyalty to him over someone he cared about, neither of which Lelouch has any right to complain about without calling the kettle black since he'd done both of those things to Ougi long before. I know he ruined Lelouch's perfect happy ending by giving him a taste of his own medicine but Lelouch would have gleefully done the same in return.

I know its cool to like the rebel and all, but Lelouch has tons of flaws everyone over looks or ignores and it's rather annoying. He did some very bad things and had a handful of people he cared about, while the rest of the world could go screw itself as far as he cared.
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Old 2010-11-19, 01:37   Link #7876
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Lelouch slaughtered the Geass cult (which were all unarmed scientists and test subjects) in the name of Shirley. He also manipulated Toudou onto his side after secretly killing Toudou's own boss. He ditched all the Black Knights and left them to their fates at the end of season 1 (something they should never forgive) And of course he'd caused all kinds of deaths in the Zero Requiem. All without the slightest hint of remorse.

And enough about Ougi seriously. He's guilty of sneaking around behind Lelouch's back, and not having loyalty to him over someone he cared about, neither of which Lelouch has any right to complain about without calling the kettle black since he'd done both of those things to Ougi long before. I know he ruined Lelouch's perfect happy ending by giving him a taste of his own medicine but Lelouch would have gleefully done the same in return.

I know its cool to like the rebel and all, but Lelouch has tons of flaws everyone over looks or ignores and it's rather annoying. He did some very bad things and had a handful of people he cared about, while the rest of the world could go screw itself as far as he cared.
This.

I'm not going to say Lelouch deserves to burn in hell, and Ougi, Toudou, and the rest of the BK are all idiots just for siding with Schneizel, their enemy, so willingly without any real suspicion that they were being used or lied to, but Lelouch made a ton of selfish and irresponsible mistakes with no regret or remorse for them, so he had a lot of crap coming his way.
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Old 2010-11-19, 01:47   Link #7877
azul120
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Lelouch slaughtered the Geass cult (which were all unarmed scientists and test subjects) in the name of Shirley. He also manipulated Toudou onto his side after secretly killing Toudou's own boss. He ditched all the Black Knights and left them to their fates at the end of season 1 (something they should never forgive) And of course he'd caused all kinds of deaths in the Zero Requiem. All without the slightest hint of remorse.
He killed Toudou's boss largely as a measure of loss cutting, since it appeared he was doomed, and the distraction gave him the needed cover for his next attack. Now granted that, the abandonment during the Black Rebellion, and the Geass Cult attack were assy, but there were certain circumstances. And the Zero Requiem can only be blamed on him being too far gone, in other words, him becoming a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds.

Quote:
And enough about Ougi seriously. He's guilty of sneaking around behind Lelouch's back, and not having loyalty to him over someone he cared about, neither of which Lelouch has any right to complain about without calling the kettle black since he'd done both of those things to Ougi long before. I know he ruined Lelouch's perfect happy ending by giving him a taste of his own medicine but Lelouch would have gleefully done the same in return.
Gleefully done the same in return? I don't think so. Besides, Ohgi would be the pot in this case, since he would be the one doing the blaming. And you say enough about Ohgi after holding Zero Requiem, the post Despair Event Horizon act that Ohgi himself was responsible for, against Lelouch instead? What the cabbage, man?

Quote:
I know its cool to like the rebel and all, but Lelouch has tons of flaws everyone over looks or ignores and it's rather annoying. He did some very bad things and had a handful of people he cared about, while the rest of the world could go screw itself as far as he cared.
At the same time, a lot of said flaws were because he had a shit life growing up with no real parental figures, was still a teenager with issues a mile high and no therapists in sight, and on top of that, the worst luck in the world. It's a given he'd be screwed up, and a miracle he had as much empathy as he did. And "the rest of the world could go screw itself as far as he cared"? How ironic. He actually had more vision and desire towards that end than most other characters in the show did, even if he was rather egocentric. He was just convinced, and pretty much right, that he needed to do it through extreme means since he wouldn't be getting any help through lawful means, especially against an oppressive regime.

Unfortunately, There Were No Therapists in the Crapsack World of Code Geass.

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This.

I'm not going to say Lelouch deserves to burn in hell, and Ougi, Toudou, and the rest of the BK are all idiots just for siding with Schneizel, their enemy, so willingly without any real suspicion that they were being used or lied to, but Lelouch made a ton of selfish and irresponsible mistakes with no regret or remorse for them, so he had a lot of crap coming his way.
It's a bit much to say he had no regrets. He constantly put up an emotional barrier, and felt that he had to keep on moving in order to bear results.
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Old 2010-11-19, 02:13   Link #7878
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Boo hoo. People were mean to Lelouch as a kid and therefore anything he kills or destroys is justified.....

Stop making excuses for the guy. He made his grave and then he had to lay in it.

Ougi didn't do anything Lelouch wouldn't have gladly done to him in return if it furthered his goals. He basically left Ougi for dead season 1 because he only cared about Nunnally, someone that Ougi would have considered a worthless blind cripple on the enemy side at that. An alliance of convienience only goes so far, and Lelouch and the knights had reached their limit.

Had he worked on actually bonding with them and proved to be a trusting and kind commander, rather than a guy who only associated when he needed them and otherwise ignored them, then I could say turning on him was a bad thing to do. But he didn't and I can't fault their judgement. Epsecially since he had been acting even more distant and suspicious as usual, looking very much like he was about to break ties with them completely. Oh and he'd basically ordered them all to their deaths over a blind crippled dead girl, an order they thankfully ignored.
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Old 2010-11-19, 02:31   Link #7879
azul120
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Boo hoo. People were mean to Lelouch as a kid and therefore anything he kills or destroys is justified.....

Stop making excuses for the guy. He made his grave and then he had to lay in it.
What? I never said any such thing. Geesh.

I meant that he basically did the best he could under the amount of mental instability he had suffered at a young age with no parental figure to guide him. He was still a teenager at that, and decided to try to take on Britannia, since few other people seemed to be willing and up to the challenge. He deserved the benefit of the doubt somewhat, to the point where he should have been rehabilitated somehow, not be put to death.

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Ougi didn't do anything Lelouch wouldn't have gladly done to him in return if it furthered his goals. He basically left Ougi for dead season 1 because he only cared about Nunnally, someone that Ougi would have considered a worthless blind cripple on the enemy side at that. An alliance of convienience only goes so far, and Lelouch and the knights had reached their limit.
At least Lelouch had his excuses. (And he didn't necessarily leave Ohgi for dead, so much as Ohgi was put out of commission and needed to be replaced to keep things from falling apart.) And he was doing what he did not just for Nunnally when all was said and done, but also the world. Ohgi, who I'm pretty sure didn't suffer the sheer quantity of mental abuse within such a short time span as Lelouch did, ended up having his mind centered around Villetta, and tried ditching his fellow comrades knowing she wanted to kill him. And even though said woman changes her mind, she gives misinformation regarding Lelouch's geass, immediately erasing any hopes of rationality on her part.

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Had he worked on actually bonding with them and proved to be a trusting and kind commander, rather than a guy who only associated when he needed them and otherwise ignored them, then I could say turning on him was a bad thing to do. But he didn't and I can't fault their judgement. Epsecially since he had been acting even more distant and suspicious as usual, looking very much like he was about to break ties with them completely. Oh and he'd basically ordered them all to their deaths over a blind crippled dead girl, an order they thankfully ignored.
Just what are you talking about? He never ordered them to their deaths. He only ordered them to look for her, because he was trapped in a state of denial. He collected himself after Kallen came to his side, but that was right when the BKs turned on him. They could have at the very least tried asking him what was up, rather than executing him on the spot. (Not to mention spend the next few episodes looking for him to kill him.) Pure Kangaroo Court.

Speaking of which, being a teenager still in school and spending most of his life avoiding being used as a political tool, he didn't have the chance to learn the value of military teamwork and camaraderie, let alone his aforementioned lack of mental stability due to his age, have much of a mind to do so anyways.

I hope they're happy. They created a pseudo-Woobie Destroyer of Worlds who would have otherwise made a decent leader if he were to stay the course and live on.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-11-19 at 02:43.
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Old 2010-11-19, 03:08   Link #7880
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I couldn't respect Todoh if he went back to Lelouch after what Lelouch did to him, killing his boss than lying to him about it. The problem with the Black Knight betrayal isn't that they betrayed them but that it was handled incredibly poorly. If the final battle had been a three way fight between the UFN vs Schneizel (using the Knights of the Round) vs Lelouch than it would have worked. You could setup the rest of the Knights of the Round as a competent pilots, you have the Black Knights not lowering themselves to Lelouch and Schneizel's level, and you have Lelouch having to fight off a lot more people.

It would have been awesome.
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