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Old 2010-11-19, 03:20   Link #7881
azul120
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There's no question Tohdoh and Chiba had reason enough to be disgusted with Zero.
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Old 2010-11-19, 03:33   Link #7882
Aquaman OS
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Let us review.

1. Britannia has just revealed it has a massively powerful weapon that just wiped out tons of people, alot of their own, and Tohdou frantically informs Lelouch that they need to retreat now and figure out a plan or they're all dead. Lelouch just tells them to ignore that and futilely search for a dead girl who's worthless to them in any way now. That's basically ordering them to their deaths. Naturally they ignore it. Afterwards they wonder what to do about this new powerful weapon and want to discuss it with their fearless leader, but Lelouch broods in his room and ignores their attempts to call him about this, seemingly confirming their suspcions that Lelouch didn't really care about anybody in the Black Knights aside from maybe Kallen. And no him being upset about Nunnally is not something they should give him a pass for, because Nunnally is pointless to the Black Knights and is an enemy at that.

2. Now the Black Knights confront him armed. There is absolutely nothing to indicate (beyond people thinking the best of Lelouch and the worst of the Knights) they planned on harming him at all provided he gave them a decent answer to the evidence raised against him and his previous suspcious behavior. They held him at gunpoint because quite frankly when dealing with a possibly hostile Lelouch you should do that and more, because he's very dangerous and they wanted to take precautions. Which were totally justified because he'd planned on Geassing them until he noticed their back up and realized he'd never get away with it. Since Lelouch is suicidal at this point anyway he basically tells them "Mwa ha, yep chumps I played you like a harp from hell, you mean nothing to me." Which further pisses them off, and confirms he's no longer on their side, if he ever truely was. Therefore they shoot at him.

3. The Black Knights chase him because Lelouch had seemingly betrayed them at the least, and been using them as his own personal army for the throne at worst. Remember he had previously started acting without the others knowledge, and started keeping two notable Britannians as company instead. One of said Britannians rescued him after their failed attempt to kill him, suggesting he'd been expecting a betrayal at some point. And they'd had a large pile of evidence suggesting he'd been playing them all along which he'd outright admitted to. Of course they'd persue him. He'd openly made them an enemy.

In conclusion, the Black Knights were perfectly justified in turning on him. He'd had evidence against him, been acting very suspicously, proved unreliable, and outright told them to their faces he was playing them. What exactly should they have done in that situation that wasn't giving him a high amount of trust he could have easily used against them? Trust he frankly didn't deserve to get from them.
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Old 2010-11-19, 03:39   Link #7883
Haak
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I really don't see how number one is enough to logically lead to number 2...
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Old 2010-11-19, 03:47   Link #7884
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Let us review.

1. Britannia has just revealed it has a massively powerful weapon that just wiped out tons of people, alot of their own, and Tohdou frantically informs Lelouch that they need to retreat now and figure out a plan or they're all dead. Lelouch just tells them to ignore that and futilely search for a dead girl who's worthless to them in any way now. That's basically ordering them to their deaths. Naturally they ignore it. Afterwards they wonder what to do about this new powerful weapon and want to discuss it with their fearless leader, but Lelouch broods in his room and ignores their attempts to call him about this, seemingly confirming their suspcions that Lelouch didn't really care about anybody in the Black Knights aside from maybe Kallen. And no him being upset about Nunnally is not something they should give him a pass for, because Nunnally is pointless to the Black Knights and is an enemy at that.
He was distraught over the loss of what had been his only remaining family, and his emotional rock, for years. Not to condone his behavior, but it's understandable he would be under a distressed state of denial. He was eventually able to collect himself with Kallen's help, but couldn't explain himself, which I am about to get to.

Quote:
2. Now the Black Knights confront him armed. There is absolutely nothing to indicate (beyond people thinking the best of Lelouch and the worst of the Knights) they planned on harming him at all provided he gave them a decent answer to the evidence raised against him and his previous suspcious behavior. They held him at gunpoint because quite frankly when dealing with a possibly hostile Lelouch you should do that and more, because he's very dangerous and they wanted to take precautions. Which were totally justified because he'd planned on Geassing them until he noticed their back up and realized he'd never get away with it. Since Lelouch is suicidal at this point anyway he basically tells them "Mwa ha, yep chumps I played you like a harp from hell, you mean nothing to me." Which further pisses them off, and confirms he's no longer on their side, if he ever truely was. Therefore they shoot at him.
Not entirely true. The Black Knights were prepared to shoot on sight, to the extent that they were yelling at Kallen to get out of the way when she tried coming to his defense, because of their suspicion over his Geass and that she might be under Lelouch's control. Lelouch infact had been quickly thinking of a way out, until, and this is important, the moment he saw Schneizel. At that moment, he knew he was boned, because being one of Schneizel's plans, he was all too sure he had no way out. So he did the only thing he could possibly do at that point: lie to everyone including Kallen so that at the very least she would be spared. It's true that he wanted to die, but it was because of that very incident that left him completely isolated that he had crossed the Despair Event Horizon.

Quote:
3. The Black Knights chase him because Lelouch had seemingly betrayed them at the least, and been using them as his own personal army for the throne at worst. Remember he had previously started acting without the others knowledge, and started keeping two notable Britannians as company instead. One of said Britannians rescued him after their failed attempt to kill him, suggesting he'd been expecting a betrayal at some point. And they'd had a large pile of evidence suggesting he'd been playing them all along which he'd outright admitted to. Of course they'd persue him. He'd openly made them an enemy.

In conclusion, the Black Knights were perfectly justified in turning on him. He'd had evidence against him, been acting very suspicously, proved unreliable, and outright told them to their faces he was playing them. What exactly should they have done in that situation that wasn't giving him a high amount of trust he could have easily used against them? Trust he frankly didn't deserve to get from them.
Based on a whole lot of suspect evidence that they were too stupid to trust. Not to mention that it came from the most notorious Britannian royal as well as a Britannian spy. Now granted, Lelouch should have been more forthcoming, but the stuff about Geass as it had to do with the Geass Cult? It would have been one huge Cassandra Truth.
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Old 2010-11-19, 03:52   Link #7885
Aquaman OS
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You're not remembering that scene properly. The first thing they do is demand an explaination. After Lelouch tells them off, they all sadden (Tamaki even cries in despair) and that is when they start yelling at Kallen to get out of the way.

The whole worried about Kallen being Geassed part is from the council meeting part in ep 22.

There's no evidence they planned to shoot on sight. Their reactions to his "explanation" suggest the complete opposite. If they just planning on killing him beforehand why even ask at all?

And again Schnizel notably didn't blow them up right away, but came to talk civilly. So they'd want to listen to what he had to say.
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Old 2010-11-19, 03:56   Link #7886
Haak
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Lol. They're holding him at gunpoint and you're saying there's nothing to suggest they would harm him?

Personally, I wouldn't trust a guy holding me at gunpoint, but that's just me...
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Old 2010-11-19, 04:01   Link #7887
Aquaman OS
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I'm suggesting they didn't plan to just outright kill him regardless whatever he'd said or done. They asked for an explaination and assuming he'd defended himself adequately, they'd have let him go.

Confronting him unarmed would be foolish, since if they were correct in their assumptions he'd just Geass them to kill themselves or whatever. And he hadn't shown them the faith needed to trust him not do that.
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Old 2010-11-19, 04:08   Link #7888
Haak
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Which is why I don't see how number one makes any sense. They already witnessed Lelouch make a monumental cock up at the end of season one but still ended up following him again because they knew they still needed him. And even if it does prove that he doesn't care about them it shouldn't be enough to convince them to believe that he has supernatural powers and could kill them all easily as the default position. When Kallen defended him they automatically assumed she was under a geass, and didn't take her argument into account. Now how is that logical?
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Old 2010-11-19, 04:11   Link #7889
Aquaman OS
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Why not? All of his "miracles" from season 1 on that they couldn't explain, (like all the enemy equipment that fell into their hands, and how someone on the field would suddenly do something counterproductive to give them a massive field advantage) and just took for granted would suddenly make sense if he had mind control powers. They'd probably noticed all the convienient explosions that happened for them throughout the series.
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Old 2010-11-19, 04:13   Link #7890
azul120
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You're remembering things out of order. Zero has yet to say a word, and they're all "It's all over!" "We know all about your Geass!" "How dare you use us!" Kallen jumps in to defend Zero calling the whole thing one-sided and demands that they hear his side. The Black Knights however are all "You're in our way, Kallen!" and "Are you under control of his Geass, too?" That's no empty threat. And to top it all off, Lelouch spots Schneizel and immediately figures out that it was all his plan and that he always has everything covered, so he knows he's doomed.

And Schneizel uses diplomacy as a tool and a front, this time to cause the Black Knights to turn on their leader. (And not without a couple of seedy tricks of his own in place from the Kururugi Shrine meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku that he and Kanon sabotaged.) He already had a reputation for this throughout the series, like when he called a ceasefire against France or one of the other nations. He's a master of the Xanatos Gambit. He'll use any trick he can get away with, or play any game where he comes out ahead somehow.

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Why not? All of his "miracles" from season 1 on that they couldn't explain, (like all the enemy equipment that fell into their hands, and how someone on the field would suddenly do something counterproductive to give them a massive field advantage) and just took for granted would suddenly make sense if he had mind control powers. They'd probably noticed all the convienient explosions that happened for them throughout the series.
They fail logic forever then. Some of these things were a result of said geass, but not all. Besides, the things he accomplished with it simply could not be achieved otherwise.
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Old 2010-11-19, 04:14   Link #7891
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Why not? All of his "miracles" from season 1 on that they couldn't explain, (like all the enemy equipment that fell into their hands, and how someone on the field would suddenly do something counterproductive to give them a massive field advantage) and just took for granted would suddenly make sense if he had mind control powers. They'd probably noticed all the convienient explosions that happened for them throughout the series.
It would also suddnely make sense if they believed he was a freaking angel. That's still not enough to assume he is.

I really don't think "Why not?" is the best perspective in considering supernatural powers.
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Old 2010-11-19, 21:42   Link #7892
azul120
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It would also suddnely make sense if they believed he was a freaking angel. That's still not enough to assume he is.

I really don't think "Why not?" is the best perspective in considering supernatural powers.
The one thing that made them take objection, I believe, was the Euphinator incident, which Schneizel provided the exact piece of evidence he needed to implicate Lelouch of doing on purpose by that little Quote Mine job. To their credit, the BKs were still doubtful towards Schneizel's words until Oghi and Villetta walked in.

I know, I'm bringing up Oghi again, but it was because of him that that whole horrible turn of events happened. And in an additional rebuttal to Aquaman OS' comments, the main thing about Oghi was his moralizing about it all, even as he acted contrary and/or was at fault for a few of the same things he called Lelouch out for. And on top of all that, he and the rest of the Black Knights were completely passive-aggressive about the whole thing. If they had issues, why didn't they press him about it a bit more earlier on and/or not as drastically instead of putting him at gunpoint? I know, they got played by Schneizel, but even there they should have known a little better.

As such it's not because "he's cooler" or anything that I'm defending Lelouch here, but rather because he was a Cosmic Plaything even when he was trying his best. And Oghi was actually an Ensemble Darkhorse up until Villetta started screwing with his judgment, starting with the season finale, when he let his guard down, not thinking she regained her memories, and she shot him during the Black Rebellion. I mean, if they were to be suspicious of Lelouch about why he wanted Nunnally, then what about Oghi and Villetta? Somehow Villetta's Plot Armor rubbed off on Oghi.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-11-19 at 22:10.
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Old 2010-11-19, 23:59   Link #7893
Revolutionist
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you can rationalize their betrayal all you want, but the fact is that the BKs are assholes for betraying Zero.

Lelouch was no Angel, and he definitely contributed to the mistrust of the BKs, but almost all of the leadership owed him their lives in one way or another.
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Old 2010-11-20, 00:38   Link #7894
Cephei Mordred
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I think the main reason people are on Oghi's case so strongly is that they hate Viletta for being such a disgusting Smug Snake throughout the entire series, and it carries over to Oghi in their minds. Remember how when she discovered Zero's identity, she was all "BAHAHAHA They'll make me a noble for this!" Maybe if she hadn't thought about her own status she'd be a bit more worthy of respect.

That's not to say he's not guilty of what he is accused of, but if he had gone over to a more popular female, they might go easier on him.

In any case, I think this might be a good compromise between the two sides of the argument:

In principle, Lelouch deserved more consideration, however because of Geass they could not afford to go easy on him, lest he press his advantage. It was not a time for half measures.
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Old 2010-11-20, 01:13   Link #7895
azul120
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It wasn't because it was Villetta, though you are right about her being a Smug Snake. It was about Oghi being unconscientious, from willing to ditch the BKs to meet Villetta, when he knew she wanted to kill him, to believing what she and Schneizel had been saying about Geass, and being the one responsible for the Black Knights' decision to betray. In other words, he was the big Swiss Messenger, and those invariably end up assuming Scrappy status.

And their fear of Geass didn't fly for the following reasons: they wouldn't be able to turn on him if Lelouch had been abusing it, and even if they assumed he had been giving singular commands (which he couldn't really do to that extent because of the It Only Works Once rule), they could have used protective eyeshades or something.
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Old 2010-11-20, 01:20   Link #7896
Cephei Mordred
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Do we know everything that Schneizel had told them? Maybe he lied about Geass's limitations.
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Old 2010-11-20, 01:41   Link #7897
azul120
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He didn't know much at all about Geass, but it did give him liberty to draw his own insinuations. He basically Quote Mined Lelouch's false confession to Suzaku about deliberately ordering Euphie to kill the Japanese to the Black Knights. He also suggested that even he could be under the control of geass and not even know it in order to stir up some paranoia.

Aside from that, he and Kanon told them that Lelouch never told them that he had been informed about FLEIJA by Suzaku, yet another cleverly manipulated bit. They set it all up by sabotaging the meeting, and goading Suzaku into carrying FLEIJA into battle, knowing that Lelouch wouldn't believe him if he were to warn him because of the perceived betrayal.
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Old 2010-12-05, 04:36   Link #7898
Shinji103
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A little heads up here:

For those who've heard of Tales of Graces F for the PS3 (and even for those who haven't), there's an interesting little thing on the homepage for the game. Go to Systems on the top bar and then go to Doanload. (Download is written in Japanese though; it's the bottom-right button in the set of buttons that appears near the top-right of the page after you click on System)

So what's the heads up here?

CODE GEASS ALTERNATE CHARACTER COSTUMES.

No I'm not kidding. The main character Asbel gets Suzaku's Knight of 7 costume (no surprise there; Asbel has Suzaku's voice actor), while the heroine Sophie dresses like C.C. (), with Sheria as Karen, and Richard as Zero.
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Old 2010-12-11, 07:04   Link #7899
choji
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Just a heads up, the final volume of the Geass manga has been released -
It has quite a few differences that you are able to read and see here :

http://community.livejournal.com/cod...s/1666465.html
(you have to be a registered member)

In case you are not a member there, I can at least copy/paste a few differences that were noted. ( full credit goes to leizelann from LiveJournal. )

Spoiler for general notes about last volume, not detailed:
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Old 2010-12-11, 15:03   Link #7900
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Spoiler:
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