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Old 2007-08-23, 04:22   Link #1101
Nanami
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra View Post
It's at the very end of ep 25. There are screencaps of him around, but I don't have any of the links to hand.
In end of episode there are any new characters? Maybe you mean this guy?

But this is 23 episode, Lelouch's speach.
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Old 2007-08-23, 08:01   Link #1102
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Why would you say that being in Gawain is little protection? It probably has the highest survival rate among all the OoBK knightmare frames. Not to mention it can friggin fly and has hadron cannons that can render aerial attacks useless, thats how Zero & Karen were able to escape from numerous Sutherlands at Kamenijina island. If Zero was in a Burai or Gekka, his chances of demise are way higher.
And Gawain's still not invulnerable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
2)Ougi(vice-commander), who could have taken over Zero, was shot at the command post, thus putting him out of the picture as well, hence why the OoBk are in deep sh*t.
Ougi himself isn't exactly very good. He couldn't even exercise enough authority to get his troops to follow Zero's order to not harm the students. In fact, the Black Knights screwed up at the school in just about every possible way. Whether he was capable of making command decisions probably wouldn't have made any difference. The idea behind having contingencies is to provide for unforseen situations (and such situations are certain to occur in battle), not having any is a sure sign of weakness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Who says Zero doesnt have excellent subordinates? Todo and Kallen are extremely capable fighters, Diethard handles tasks efficiently and provides valuable information to Zero, Ougi serves as his vice-commander. 1 major difference between renowned leaders and Zero is that the former truly fights for their country while the latter fights instead for a loved one, hence why renowned leaders nurture successors while Zero pretty much does things his own way.
The show itself tells us that Zero's subordinates are useless without him. Despite their other qualities, they seemed to be just about helpless once the Britannians changed their tactics. Admittedly, much of this can be attibuted to poor writing, but that's an out-of-universe explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Just a unit? The Gawain went like PEWPEW 360 and took out every single one of the air supplies. That ain't a sound military tactic at all, sacrificing so many people (yea you dont think the planes are unmanned right? Sunrise should have depicted people dying here) just so that Zero may fall for the bait (plan wasn't guaranteed to work).
Yes. That's called a sound military tactic. Soldiers die in battle, and if they do so while giving you a chance to gain a major advantage, then it's generally a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Furthuremore, when Zero arrived at the place, only Cornelia was waiting for him. Does that sound logical? If you were anticipating the enemy's leader, would you lie in wait with only one gloucester? Absolutely not, considering Cornelia doesn't even know the fighting capabilities of Gawain.
This was the entirety of the weakness in Cornelia's plan. If she had gone about it with any more competence, and laid in wait with a half-dozen Gloucesters, then there wouldn't have been an episode 25.

Quote:
In regards to the JLF incident, what happened to the principle of no negotiations with terrorists? Lol the moment Zero said he'll save Euphemia, Cornelia pretty much went with him. Both scenarios showcased Cornelia being clouded by her emotions and going to extremes.
Frankly, the principle of no negotiation is relatively counterproductive. It tends to limit one's options rather than offering any advantage. It's one thing to act emotionally given the situation, and it's quite another to go to extremes. Doing reasonable things fits the former much more than the latter.

Then again, my issue with Lelouch isn't that he acts because of emotion; it's that he doesn't plan anywhere nearly as he should have.
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Old 2007-08-23, 09:39   Link #1103
Chudley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
And Gawain's still not invulnerable.
No one's saying Gawain's invincible. Gawain provides much more protection than you give it credit for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Ougi himself isn't exactly very good. He couldn't even exercise enough authority to get his troops to follow Zero's order to not harm the students. In fact, the Black Knights screwed up at the school in just about every possible way. Whether he was capable of making command decisions probably wouldn't have made any difference. The idea behind having contingencies is to provide for unforseen situations (and such situations are certain to occur in battle), not having any is a sure sign of weakness.
How was Ougi supposed to exercise authority and all with a bullet in his stomach? And I seriously doubt that the vice-commander of OoBK would not be able to command the troops in absence of Zero. As i mentioned before, there were 2 unforseen circumstances here (Viletta regained her memories and took out Ougi)(Nunally abducted) and pretty much put both the supreme commander and the vice-commander out of the picture, hence resulting in disarray among the OoBK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The show itself tells us that Zero's subordinates are useless without him. Despite their other qualities, they seemed to be just about helpless once the Britannians changed their tactics. Admittedly, much of this can be attibuted to poor writing, but that's an out-of-universe explanation.
Yep you're right here, however it doesnt discount the fact that they're still excellent subordinates.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Yes. That's called a sound military tactic. Soldiers die in battle, and if they do so while giving you a chance to gain a major advantage, then it's generally a good idea.
Sorry have to disagree with you here. Was Zero guaranteed to show up? No. What if Zero did not come? Those countless Britannian lives have just been wasted. Even if Zero did fell for the ruse, what major advantage did Cornelia gain here? The chance to kill Zero? Yea, but you're forgetting that Zero gets the chance to kill Cornelia too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This was the entirety of the weakness in Cornelia's plan. If she had gone about it with any more competence, and laid in wait with a half-dozen Gloucesters, then there wouldn't have been an episode 25.
Yep and this justifies my previous point. Cornelia got defeated instead and those Britannians sacrificed earlier pretty much died for nothing. Sound military tactic? Hell no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Frankly, the principle of no negotiation is relatively counterproductive. It tends to limit one's options rather than offering any advantage. It's one thing to act emotionally given the situation, and it's quite another to go to extremes. Doing reasonable things fits the former much more than the latter.

Then again, my issue with Lelouch isn't that he acts because of emotion; it's that he doesn't plan anywhere nearly as he should have.
Cornelia agreed to Zero's assistance even though he's Britannia's no.1 enemy because Zero said he would save Euphemia. Zero abandoned the OoBK upon news of Nunally's abduction. They both pretty much act according to their emotions when it comes to their sisters. After all Cornelia did go to extremes to set up her showdown with Zero.

If you ask me whether Zero did his homework before the battle, i'd say Yes he did. He planned the collapse of the infrastructure and taking Cornelia as a hostage(he geassed Dalton for this).
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Old 2007-08-23, 10:54   Link #1104
Terra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanami View Post
In end of episode there are any new characters? Maybe you mean this guy?

But this is 23 episode, Lelouch's speach.
Nope, after the credits of ep 25 there's a load of text about the sequel and a picture of Zero and of a new guy.
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Old 2007-08-23, 11:57   Link #1105
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
No one's saying Gawain's invincible. Gawain provides much more protection than you give it credit for.
You do understand what I meant when I said "In a realistic universe, being in a powerful machine like Gawain is little protection since such high-value targets tend to attract the most enemy fire as well", don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
How was Ougi supposed to exercise authority and all with a bullet in his stomach? And I seriously doubt that the vice-commander of OoBK would not be able to command the troops in absence of Zero.
When did Ougi show any of this ability? He seemed to have completely muffed up the security of the school before he was shot, and the school was supposed to be their HQ, for crying out loud. Besides, Todou was supposed to be the military commander (as far as I can recall, Ougi never made any sound military decisions on his own initiative) but he didn't seem to have a clue as to how to respond.

And again, it's really the lack of contingency planning that shows their weakness more than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
pretty much put both the supreme commander and the vice-commander out of the picture, hence resulting in disarray among the OoBK.
Disarray is one thing, but the complete disintegration of the command and control structure, and the utter lack of initiative displayed by the Black Knights is something altogether different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Sorry have to disagree with you here. Was Zero guaranteed to show up? No. What if Zero did not come? Those countless Britannian lives have just been wasted. Even if Zero did fell for the ruse, what major advantage did Cornelia gain here? The chance to kill Zero? Yea, but you're forgetting that Zero gets the chance to kill Cornelia too.
So what? There's always a chance that a tactic won't work properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Cornelia agreed to Zero's assistance even though he's Britannia's no.1 enemy because Zero said he would save Euphemia.
So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Zero abandoned the OoBK upon news of Nunally's abduction. They both pretty much act according to their emotions when it comes to their sisters. After all Cornelia did go to extremes to set up her showdown with Zero.
How can you equate sound tactics with profoundly unsound tactics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
If you ask me whether Zero did his homework before the battle, i'd say Yes he did.
Sure he did; the problem was that he didn't see fit to tell his own side what he planned.
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Old 2007-08-23, 18:29   Link #1106
Chudley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You do understand what I meant when I said "In a realistic universe, being in a powerful machine like Gawain is little protection since such high-value targets tend to attract the most enemy fire as well", don't you?
And you do understand that this is a discussion thread about code geass, not exactly a realistic universe?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
When did Ougi show any of this ability? He seemed to have completely muffed up the security of the school before he was shot, and the school was supposed to be their HQ, for crying out loud. Besides, Todou was supposed to be the military commander (as far as I can recall, Ougi never made any sound military decisions on his own initiative) but he didn't seem to have a clue as to how to respond.
Ougi never had a chance to command the OoBK since Zero was always around. However does it make sense that the vice-commander of OoBK is totally incapable of making decisions in the absence of the supreme commander? There's definitely a reason as to why Zero made Ougi his vice commander. And the only time Zero wasn't around, Ougi got shot. There was nothing to indicate that the school security was muffed up before Ougi got shot by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Disarray is one thing, but the complete disintegration of the command and control structure, and the utter lack of initiative displayed by the Black Knights is something altogether different.
They actually had a command structure, forgot which episode it was, when Zero was delegating posts to the OoBK members. Being execellent subordinates here translates to effective and efficient 'followers', with the both heads of the command structure MIA, there was no doubt the OoBK were in deep sh*t.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
So what? There's always a chance that a tactic won't work properly.
Obviously the tactic failed here as Cornelia got her ass kicked. One as a leader must calculate the risk and cost of the tactic and whether it ought to be executed. When one uses so many lives as bait he jolly well ought to achieve something out of it. Clearly Cornelia did not gave it much thought thus resulting in her defeat as well as the senseless deaths of dozens of Britannians.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
So?
Point here was to show that Cornelia acts according to her emotions too like Zero. Would you cooperate with the very man who killed your brother? Not unless you're really desperate.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
How can you equate sound tactics with profoundly unsound tactics?
Nope as mentioned above, Cornelia executed the tactic without gaving it much thought and it resulted in senseless casaulties, hence it wasn't a sound decision at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Sure he did; the problem was that he didn't see fit to tell his own side what he planned.
Zero doesnt reveal his plans to the OoBK due to several reasons, 1 mainly due to his geass. For instance, geassing Dalton to capture Cornelia as a hostage and also when he geassed those Britannians to purge the outerskirt's infrastructure. People are bound to question how he manages to do all these things. Besides, as mentioned before, Zero isn't obliged (or at least he think he isn't) to share his tricks of the trade with any of the OoBK people (since his true purpose, as stated before, is not Japanese Liberation)
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Old 2007-08-23, 20:44   Link #1107
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
And you do understand that this is a discussion thread about code geass, not exactly a realistic universe?
Can you entertain us with an explanation of how Code Geass being unrealistic means that Gawain would be a high-value target?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Ougi never had a chance to command the OoBK since Zero was always around. However does it make sense that the vice-commander of OoBK is totally incapable of making decisions in the absence of the supreme commander?
Given what we know of Ougi's capabilities, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
They actually had a command structure, forgot which episode it was, when Zero was delegating posts to the OoBK members. Being execellent subordinates here translates to effective and efficient 'followers', with the both heads of the command structure MIA, there was no doubt the OoBK were in deep sh*t.
You don't seem to understand what the "disintegration of the command and control structure" means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Obviously the tactic failed here as Cornelia got her ass kicked.
So? Even good tactics can fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Point here was to show that Cornelia acts according to her emotions too like Zero. Would you cooperate with the very man who killed your brother? Not unless you're really desperate.
I'm still not sure what your argument is. Cooperating with a nominal enemy for a common goal isn't what I'd qualify as "extreme" at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Nope as mentioned above, Cornelia executed the tactic without gaving it much thought and it resulted in senseless casaulties, hence it wasn't a sound decision at all.
Nope. It was quite a sound tactic save for the fact that she didn't commit enough troops. And that was done for very obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Zero doesnt reveal his plans to the OoBK due to several reasons
The reason why he doesn't is less important than the fact that he doesn't. The former only matters to Lelouch while the latter means that the Black Knights die.
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Old 2007-08-23, 22:27   Link #1108
ElecNinja
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Yeah, I'm kind of late.
XD

Was sick.

First of all, I don't think Zero was capable of that kind of trust to raise a second leader. One thing, his father did nothing while his mother was killed. After that, his father didn't even care about what happened to Lulu's mother. And then, he was sent of to Japan to basically become peace offerings of some sort. He was also bullied in Japan, if the sound episodes are canon.

In that sort of situation, I don't think Lulu could trust someone that much to raise up a leader that has somewhat the same abilities as him.

But then, Zero isn't exactly really smart in this matter. He seemed to be taking things as they come. After Suzaku became Euphie's knight, he forgot about getting someone to guard Nunully. Definitely some under sight from him.

Though, I now wonder how far has this debate/argument deviated from the original path.
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Old 2007-08-23, 22:45   Link #1109
Chudley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Can you entertain us with an explanation of how Code Geass being unrealistic means that Gawain would be a high-value target?
Since you asked me so nicely, i'll gladly obliged . It is common sense that Gawain, as a commander unit that Zero pilots, is a high-value target. However what you said in a couple of posts ago was that in a realistic universe, the Gawain offers little protection as it tends to attract enemy fire. Code Geass aint realistic, thats my point in the previous post. Did I ever mention Gawain was not a high-value target? Nope, I only illustrated my point 2 posts ago that Gawain provides the BEST protection available to Zero and you're not giving it due credit.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Given what we know of Ougi's capabilities, yes.
If so, why'd Zero make Ougi the vice-commander? Obviously there's something that Zero knows about Ougi that we don't. We can't say that we fully understand the capabilities of Ougi.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You don't seem to understand what the "disintegration of the command and control structure" means.
Disintegration refers to the command structure falling into pieces, I very well know what it means lol.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
So? Even good tactics can fail.
Cornelia's tactics resulted in her defeat as well as the loss of dozens of Britannian lives. There was so much at stake here and she obviously did not plan adequately. Had Orange not interfered, Cornelia would have been taken as a hostage and OoBKs pretty much won the battle already. Good tactics?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'm still not sure what your argument is. Cooperating with a nominal enemy for a common goal isn't what I'd qualify as "extreme" at all.
You're contradicting yourself here. A few posts ago you clearly mentioned that Cornelia accepting Zero's help was extreme. Now you're saying otherwise?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Nope. It was quite a sound tactic save for the fact that she didn't commit enough troops. And that was done for very obvious reasons.
Sure the reason was obvious but was it a sound decision, from a neutral point of view? Absolutely not. The fact that she didnt commit enough troops alone makes it a stupid tactic. Do not forget that Cornelia herself is the leader of the Britannian troops, there was clearly alot at stake here. Refer to the point from the previous paragraphs.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The reason why he doesn't is less important than the fact that he doesn't. The former only matters to Lelouch while the latter means that the Black Knights die.
I wasn't trying to say which was more important here. It was just to answer your question about why he didnt see fit to reveal his plans to the OoBK. We can all pretty much see what a selfish guy Lelouch is.
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Old 2007-08-24, 08:14   Link #1110
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElecNinja
Though, I now wonder how far has this debate/argument deviated from the original path.
This debate originated in a different thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Since you asked me so nicely, i'll gladly obliged . It is common sense that Gawain, as a commander unit that Zero pilots, is a high-value target. However what you said in a couple of posts ago was that in a realistic universe, the Gawain offers little protection as it tends to attract enemy fire. Code Geass aint realistic, thats my point in the previous post. Did I ever mention Gawain was not a high-value target? Nope, I only illustrated my point 2 posts ago that Gawain provides the BEST protection available to Zero and you're not giving it due credit.
Here's the thrust of my logic:
1. While Gawain is an advanced Knightmare Frame, it's still a high priority target.
2. Hence there's a significant possibility that Lelouch will be knocked out of a communications loop.
3. Therefore, it would make sense that he have a contingency in place for such an occurence.

How does any of what you posted rufute that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
If so, why'd Zero make Ougi the vice-commander? Obviously there's something that Zero knows about Ougi that we don't. We can't say that we fully understand the capabilities of Ougi.
Or it could be that Ougi used to run the Resistance. From what I recall, he did a pretty bad job of handling that job as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Disintegration refers to the command structure falling into pieces, I very well know what it means lol.
Then what does "They actually had a command structure, forgot which episode it was, when Zero was delegating posts to the OoBK members. Being execellent subordinates here translates to effective and efficient 'followers', with the both heads of the command structure MIA, there was no doubt the OoBK were in deep sh*t." have to do with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Cornelia's tactics resulted in her defeat as well as the loss of dozens of Britannian lives. There was so much at stake here and she obviously did not plan adequately. Had Orange not interfered, Cornelia would have been taken as a hostage and OoBKs pretty much won the battle already. Good tactics?

Sure the reason was obvious but was it a sound decision, from a neutral point of view? Absolutely not. The fact that she didnt commit enough troops alone makes it a stupid tactic. Do not forget that Cornelia herself is the leader of the Britannian troops, there was clearly alot at stake here. Refer to the point from the previous paragraphs.
Yup. It was a sound use of tactics; and repeating that it didn't work doesn't change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
You're contradicting yourself here. A few posts ago you clearly mentioned that Cornelia accepting Zero's help was extreme. Now you're saying otherwise?
No; you misinterpreted my earlier statement. I said that "However, the only extreme thing that she did there was to accept Zero's help"; meaning that there was nothing else that anyone could possibly interpret as an extreme. However, I'm now explaining why such a position would be incorrect. If you prefer, you can imagine quotation marks around the word "extreme".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
I wasn't trying to say which was more important here. It was just to answer your question about why he didnt see fit to reveal his plans to the OoBK. We can all pretty much see what a selfish guy Lelouch is.
I didn't ask any question; I'm not particularly interested in why Lelouch didn't tell anyone his plans, just whether he did so or not. Although it's not exactly a "trick of the trade" to tell the Black Knights something to the order of "In case of counterattack, go to plan B".
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Old 2007-08-24, 09:18   Link #1111
Chudley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Here's the thrust of my logic:
1. While Gawain is an advanced Knightmare Frame, it's still a high priority target.
2. Hence there's a significant possibility that Lelouch will be knocked out of a communications loop.
3. Therefore, it would make sense that he have a contingency in place for such an occurence.

How does any of what you posted rufute that?
Your logic here is severely flawed. Point 2 has never occured in CG before and never will. Do you honestly believe it could happen? You are assuming that that there is a significantly high chance Point 2 might happen, which is not true considering Gawain's capabilities. Not to mention how extremely lame it will be plot-wise if the OoBK loses the war because the Gawain had its communications antenna destroyed. I think you're missing the point here though, our arguement stemmed from the issue of whether Gawain provides little protection or not. In Code Geass, Gawain is arguably one of the most powerful knightmare frames. So what if it's a high priority target? When its in the air Gloucesters and Sutherlands can't do shit to it. Only Lancelot poses a threat and Lelouch has always taken care of him ever since he obtained Gawain. Hence your logic that point 1 leads to point 2 makes no sense whatsoever and point 3 isnt necessary here since point 2 aint happening.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Or it could be that Ougi used to run the Resistance. From what I recall, he did a pretty bad job of handling that job as well.
After Zero took command of the OoBK, they went on a roll, hence you're pretty much comparing the OoBk before and after Zero came in. However you're forgetting the fact that Zero has geass here, which was why he could pretty much make the impossible possible. Ougi has never shown any indications of incompetent leadership, therefore I have absolutely no idea how you assumed Ougi was doing a bad job as leader and from where you had recalled.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Then what does "They actually had a command structure, forgot which episode it was, when Zero was delegating posts to the OoBK members. Being execellent subordinates here translates to effective and efficient 'followers', with the both heads of the command structure MIA, there was no doubt the OoBK were in deep sh*t." have to do with it?
My point here was to show the OoBK actually had a command structure, not elaborate on the disintegration of the command structure. And also to furthur illustrate why the OoBK had the tide of the battle turned against them.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Yup. It was a sound use of tactics; and repeating that it didn't work doesn't change that.
No let me clearly state my point. It wasn't a sound plan and it did not work. A sound tactic = calculate and cover EVERY aspect of the plan adequately, which very clearly wasn't the case here. Let me give you a brief narration from a neutral point of view, "Cornelia utilized all her air troops as bait to lure Zero to the base where she alone awaits. Zero destroyed all the air troops before arriving at the base, where they had a showdown, of which Zero came up top." If Cornelia had committed several troops to secure Zero's capture, it would count as a sound tactic. However that was obviously not the case as Zero destroyed the air troops AND defeated Cornelia, thus no matter how you see it the plan was downright stupid. If you'd like to prove me wrong, feel free to do so.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
No; you misinterpreted my earlier statement. I said that "However, the only extreme thing that she did there was to accept Zero's help"; meaning that there was nothing else that anyone could possibly interpret as an extreme. However, I'm now explaining why such a position would be incorrect. If you prefer, you can imagine quotation marks around the word "extreme".
Yes please use quotation marks to avoid misleading statements.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I didn't ask any question; I'm not particularly interested in why Lelouch didn't tell anyone his plans, just whether he did so or not. Although it's not exactly a "trick of the trade" to tell the Black Knights something to the order of "In case of counterattack, go to plan B".
Well you said Zero's problem was that he did not see fit to reveal his plans to the OoBK and I wanted to address it. Probably a misinterpretation on my part hehe.

Last edited by Chudley; 2007-08-24 at 10:05.
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Old 2007-08-25, 08:37   Link #1112
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Your logic here is severely flawed. Point 2 has never occured in CG before and never will. Do you honestly believe it could happen? You are assuming that that there is a significantly high chance Point 2 might happen, which is not true considering Gawain's capabilities. Not to mention how extremely lame it will be plot-wise if the OoBK loses the war because the Gawain had its communications antenna destroyed. I think you're missing the point here though, our arguement stemmed from the issue of whether Gawain provides little protection or not. In Code Geass, Gawain is arguably one of the most powerful knightmare frames. So what if it's a high priority target? When its in the air Gloucesters and Sutherlands can't do shit to it. Only Lancelot poses a threat and Lelouch has always taken care of him ever since he obtained Gawain. Hence your logic that point 1 leads to point 2 makes no sense whatsoever and point 3 isnt necessary here since point 2 aint happening.
Here's a hint: when someone points out that "there's a possibility that X could happen", it's foolish to refute it by arguing "but it hasn't happened yet". My point about putting in "realistic universe" was to eliminate any out-of-universe arguments. While we may know that what happens to Lelouch is completely dictated by act of plot, he's not supposed to know that. Instead, he's supposed to act according to what he actually knows, which is what I pointed out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
After Zero took command of the OoBK, they went on a roll, hence you're pretty much comparing the OoBk before and after Zero came in. However you're forgetting the fact that Zero has geass here, which was why he could pretty much make the impossible possible. Ougi has never shown any indications of incompetent leadership, therefore I have absolutely no idea how you assumed Ougi was doing a bad job as leader and from where you had recalled.
Did you count the time Lelouch had to rescue the Resistance before he took over, or the way Ougi flubbed taking the school over? It'd be much more accurate to say that Ougi has never shown any signs of military tactical skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
No let me clearly state my point. It wasn't a sound plan and it did not work. A sound tactic = calculate and cover EVERY aspect of the plan adequately, which very clearly wasn't the case here.
Incorrect. A sound tactic is one where one makes decent use of one's resources given what one knows about the situation. It doesn't have to be the best possible course of action, so anything with a decent chance of suceeding would qualify.

For example, Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to secure the school as a headquarters was actually quite a good tactic. However, it didn't work out because because his troops were useless. It would have been a better plan had he taken the incompetence of the Black Knights into account, but it still doesn't detract from the original as a sound tactic.
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Old 2007-08-25, 10:30   Link #1113
Chudley
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Here's a hint: when someone points out that "there's a possibility that X could happen", it's foolish to refute it by arguing "but it hasn't happened yet". My point about putting in "realistic universe" was to eliminate any out-of-universe arguments. While we may know that what happens to Lelouch is completely dictated by act of plot, he's not supposed to know that. Instead, he's supposed to act according to what he actually knows, which is what I pointed out.
As I had already mentioned, if this was a realistic universe, your logic will make some sense. However this is Code Geass and your point about "realistic universe" is totally irrelevant here. Your assumption of the possibility of a communication breakdown seems pretty far-fetched here as it has never happened in CG and once again, you assumed that Zero has no contingency plan for it, something the show has never indicated. Kudos to you for coming up with the possibility of a broken communication antenna though.

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Did you count the time Lelouch had to rescue the Resistance before he took over, or the way Ougi flubbed taking the school over? It'd be much more accurate to say that Ougi has never shown any signs of military tactical skill.
I'll refresh your memory here as to how Lelouch rescued the Resistance. He geassed Viletta and obtained a Britannian Sutherland, which was why he could get near the command base. Then, he geassed the guards, went to the command deck and threatened Clovis to let the elevens go. You reckon he could have saved the resistance without his Geass? And how exactly did Ougi screw up the takeover of Ashford? I'd appreciate it if you elaborate instead of giving a vague statement.

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Incorrect. A sound tactic is one where one makes decent use of one's resources given what one knows about the situation. It doesn't have to be the best possible course of action, so anything with a decent chance of suceeding would qualify.
Cornelia forgot that she was the leader and failed to come up with a Plan B, all she had in mind was a 1v1 showdown with Zero. So basically the showdown was as good as Britannian army vs OoBK and winner takes all. As you can see, there were huge stakes here and she obviously did not plan properly(commiting no troops)(no contingency plan). Besides when one sacrifices his men for a plan, what is expected are RESULTS, so that your men do not die in vain... If this qualifies as a sound plan to you, I doubt I can convince you any furthur.

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For example, Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to secure the school as a headquarters was actually quite a good tactic. However, it didn't work out because because his troops were useless. It would have been a better plan had he taken the incompetence of the Black Knights into account, but it still doesn't detract from the original as a sound tactic.
You have repeatedly state that the Black Knights screwed up at Ashford Academy yet fail to explain how. Useless troops? Care to tell us why? And I'd like to know what Zero should have done about the takeover of the school taken into consideration the "incompetence" of the OoBK.
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Old 2007-08-25, 14:50   Link #1114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
As I had already mentioned, if this was a realistic universe, your logic will make some sense. However this is Code Geass and your point about "realistic universe" is totally irrelevant here.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Your assumption of the possibility of a communication breakdown seems pretty far-fetched here as it has never happened in CG and once again, you assumed that Zero has no contingency plan for it, something the show has never indicated. Kudos to you for coming up with the possibility of a broken communication antenna though.
You're doing the "it hasn't happened yet" routine again.

By the way, if Lelouch really did have a contingency plan, then why haven't the Black Knights followed it yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
I'll refresh your memory here as to how Lelouch rescued the Resistance. He geassed Viletta and obtained a Britannian Sutherland, which was why he could get near the command base. Then, he geassed the guards, went to the command deck and threatened Clovis to let the elevens go. You reckon he could have saved the resistance without his Geass?
I'm not asking about how Lelouch saved the Resistance, I'm talking about how the Resistance got into such hot water to begin with. It's not something that reflects well on Ougi's abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Cornelia forgot that she was the leader and failed to come up with a Plan B, all she had in mind was a 1v1 showdown with Zero. So basically the showdown was as good as Britannian army vs OoBK and winner takes all. As you can see, there were huge stakes here and she obviously did not plan properly(commiting no troops)(no contingency plan). Besides when one sacrifices his men for a plan, what is expected are RESULTS, so that your men do not die in vain... If this qualifies as a sound plan to you, I doubt I can convince you any furthur.
It seems that we're on different wavelengths. I'm talking about how the tactics themselves were sound, while you're going on about how the execution could have been better. These are two distinct concepts that are only peripherally related to one another. One simply does not judge the soundness of a tactic by how successful it is because good tactics can fail and poor tactics can suceed. If I were arguing that Cornelia was some sort of superior tactician, then your argument would be relevant.

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Originally Posted by Chudley
And how exactly did Ougi screw up the takeover of Ashford? I'd appreciate it if you elaborate instead of giving a vague statement.

You have repeatedly state that the Black Knights screwed up at Ashford Academy yet fail to explain how. Useless troops? Care to tell us why? And I'd like to know what Zero should have done about the takeover of the school taken into consideration the "incompetence" of the OoBK.
I didn't bother expanding on it because I thought that it should be obvious. Here's what Lelouch should have said to his idio- the Black Knights:

"Our goal is to secure the school as our headquarters for this battle. Since you guys don't seem to know what that means, I'll explain: search the premises for anything suspicious or dangerous, and make sure that nothing can interfere with our operations."

"If a Britannian Knightmare Frame or other vehicle approaches the school, take it out. It's sort of important to not let the enemy into our HQ."

"If an armed Britannian tries to get in, or says they want to speak to the leader, or something like that, only idiots would let them through. I really hope you guys aren't stupid enough to do that."

"This shouldn't be a concern since nobody's supposed to come in anyways, but if Ougi encounters his girlfriend, he doesn't get to play kissyface with her. We're busy fighting a war; and stuff like that should be saved for later."

"These students (Nunally et al.) are important; keep them here so they can't give us any trouble, and make sure they don't get hurt. That goes for the other students as well. All we need is for a single student to sneak into our operations area and make a phone call, and our plans could be ruined."

"And for crying out loud, don't hurt the students yourself - I'm trying to build up a little goodwill here, and your petty vendettas will really cramping my style."

Do I need to go on?
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Old 2007-08-25, 20:23   Link #1115
Chudley
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Why?
Because knightmares don't exactly face the risk of a communication breakdown unlike the real world? Not to mention Lelouch had his cell phone with him and was contacting OoBK members with it. Therefore your idea of such a possibility is extremely far-fetched to say the least and your "high-priority target = possibility" logic here is irrelevant.

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You're doing the "it hasn't happened yet" routine again.
Refer to the above point.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
By the way, if Lelouch really did have a contingency plan, then why haven't the Black Knights followed it yet?
You misunderstood what I said. The contingency plan here refers to what the OoBK will do in the case of a communication breakdown, not in the case of Zero's absence.

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I'm not asking about how Lelouch saved the Resistance, I'm talking about how the Resistance got into such hot water to begin with. It's not something that reflects well on Ougi's abilities.
Then why'd you ask if I had count the time Lelouch saved the resistance? And you're forgetting how the Resistance landed in hot water in the first place. It wasn't Ougi, but rather Lelouch that incited them to fight instead of relying on the "poison gas".

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"Our goal is to secure the school as our headquarters for this battle. Since you guys don't seem to know what that means, I'll explain: search the premises for anything suspicious or dangerous, and make sure that nothing can interfere with our operations."
Did they patrol the premises and search for any possible threats? Yes, hence how they found Nina with the homemade Ganymede bomb.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"If a Britannian Knightmare Frame or other vehicle approaches the school, take it out. It's sort of important to not let the enemy into our HQ."
Your point above is stating the obvious. Besides did the black knights at school have the capability of taking down Avalon when it appeared? No.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"If an armed Britannian tries to get in, or says they want to speak to the leader, or something like that, only idiots would let them through. I really hope you guys aren't stupid enough to do that."
Viletta wasn't armed you know. And they certainly did not let Viletta through till Ougi ascertained that she was an informant.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"This shouldn't be a concern since nobody's supposed to come in anyways, but if Ougi encounters his girlfriend, he doesn't get to play kissyface with her. We're busy fighting a war; and stuff like that should be saved for later."
You honestly thought Lelouch should have consider the possibility of Viletta turning up? Viletta appears nothing more than a civilian to him. And Ougi certainly did not expect her to regain her memories and come down here.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"These students (Nunally et al.) are important; keep them here so they can't give us any trouble, and make sure they don't get hurt. That goes for the other students as well. All we need is for a single student to sneak into our operations area and make a phone call, and our plans could be ruined."
Zero had clearly stated not to hurt the students and promised their safety as long as they follow orders. And your second statement makes absolutely no sense, doesnt Rivalz have a cell phone and even then who would he make a phone call to and how would it affect the OoBK plans?

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"And for crying out loud, don't hurt the students yourself - I'm trying to build up a little goodwill here, and your petty vendettas will really cramping my style."
This point is pretty much the same as the previous one

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Do I need to go on?
Yes you do. None of the points you mentioned above translate to the OoBK screwing up. You claim that they're useless troops, yet you fail to produce any proof of that.
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Old 2007-08-25, 21:05   Link #1116
evil|plushie
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The OoTBK aren't useless per se. They're just fall to pieces when Zero's not around so in a sense, they're like perfect chess pieces. They can do whatever the commander tells them to, but without someone moving them, they're not that great.
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Old 2007-08-25, 22:11   Link #1117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Because knightmares don't exactly face the risk of a communication breakdown unlike the real world? Not to mention Lelouch had his cell phone with him and was contacting OoBK members with it. Therefore your idea of such a possibility is extremely far-fetched to say the least and your "high-priority target = possibility" logic here is irrelevant.

Refer to the above point.
You're still doing the "it hasn't happened yet" thing. Not only is it an non-argument, but it relies on an out-of-universe explanation. Surely you can do better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
You misunderstood what I said. The contingency plan here refers to what the OoBK will do in the case of a communication breakdown, not in the case of Zero's absence.
They're one and the same. And there's the one for an enemy counterattack as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Then why'd you ask if I had count the time Lelouch saved the resistance? And you're forgetting how the Resistance landed in hot water in the first place. It wasn't Ougi, but rather Lelouch that incited them to fight instead of relying on the "poison gas".
Because if Lelouch had to do it (before he took over), then chances are that Ougi wasn't doing a very good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Did they patrol the premises and search for any possible threats? Yes, hence how they found Nina with the homemade Ganymede bomb.
"Found"? If I recall correctly, Nina came out on her own, and everyone was caught by surprise. Besides, this is after Ougi was shot, and they were looking for his assailant. It's a screwup in just about every way possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Your point above is stating the obvious. Besides did the black knights at school have the capability of taking down Avalon when it appeared? No.
Irrelevant. They should have known that their headquarters would be targeted by the Britannians, and prepared accordingly. They were extremely lucky that the intruders weren't interested in trashing the place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Viletta wasn't armed you know. And they certainly did not let Viletta through till Ougi ascertained that she was an informant.
Ah, I forgot that it was even worse: she took the pistol from Ougi himself. In any case, they shouldn't have been bringing prisoners to the main operations room. This is especially true since the premises hadn't been secure yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
You honestly thought Lelouch should have consider the possibility of Viletta turning up? Viletta appears nothing more than a civilian to him. And Ougi certainly did not expect her to regain her memories and come down here.
I was being entirely tongue-in-cheek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Zero had clearly stated not to hurt the students and promised their safety as long as they follow orders.
Obviously, Lelouch didn't insult them enough since they utterly failed in obeying any of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
And your second statement makes absolutely no sense, doesnt Rivalz have a cell phone and even then who would he make a phone call to and how would it affect the OoBK plans?
As for the cell phone thing, the students are all Britannians, many of whom have may connections to figures in the Britannian occupation, so there lots of people they could contact. Besides, it's standard operational security.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Yes you do. None of the points you mentioned above translate to the OoBK screwing up. You claim that they're useless troops, yet you fail to produce any proof of that.
When did I say that the Black Knights were useless as troops? I said that they were useless at securing the school.
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Old 2007-08-26, 00:41   Link #1118
Chudley
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're still doing the "it hasn't happened yet" thing. Not only is it an non-argument, but it relies on an out-of-universe explanation. Surely you can do better than that.
The "it" here has no remote chance of occuring such that Code Geass has never shown any sides, be it Britannians or rebels, worry about it. This possibility was just an assumption on your part, given that the producers of the show have never shown any indications of it.

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They're one and the same. And there's the one for an enemy counterattack as well.
A communication breakdown occuring does not equate to Zero's absence from the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Because if Lelouch had to do it (before he took over), then chances are that Ougi wasn't doing a very good job.
You're incorrect. The original plan that Ougi and the rebels had in mind was to use the "poison gas" as a weapon, not engage in a battle frontier (given they only had a glasgow). However, Lelouch provided them with Sutherlands and incited them to fight, resulting in the "hot soup" situation.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
"Found"? If I recall correctly, Nina came out on her own, and everyone was caught by surprise. Besides, this is after Ougi was shot, and they were looking for his assailant. It's a screwup in just about every way possible.
Nah if you watch episode 24 again, there were 2 OoBk soldiers patrolling the basement where they stumbled upon Nina (just as she had completed her bomb). Then again there were too many unexpected situations. 1) The vice-commander gets shot by a supposed "informant", 2) Mentally crazed student constructing an atomic bomb under the school grounds and 3) Avalon appears and wrecks havoc. None of the Black Knights at school, not even Zero, would have been able to forsee such circumstances. Hence I wouldn't warrant all these as huge screw-ups on the OoBk's part.

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Irrelevant. They should have known that their headquarters would be targeted by the Britannians, and prepared accordingly. They were extremely lucky that the intruders weren't interested in trashing the place.
Nope it definitely applies here. The OoBK army had the advantage and were pressing the Brittanian army back at their command base(remembered Cornelia ordered them to retreat to the base). Given the situation the Britannians were in, you'd expect them to commit all their forces to defending the base till reinforcements arrive. Besides you don't go about attacking your enemy's HQ when yours is under heavy enemy fire. Hence it was totally unexpected for the Avalon to turn up at Ashford Academy.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Ah, I forgot that it was even worse: she took the pistol from Ougi himself. In any case, they shouldn't have been bringing prisoners to the main operations room. This is especially true since the premises hadn't been secure yet.
The OoBk soldiers that apprehended Viletta were not sure if she was a friend or foe, hence they brought her to Ougi to ascertain her identity. Nothing wrong here since Viletta was pretty much at the soldiers' mercy and you can't discount the possibility of her being an informant.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Obviously, Lelouch didn't insult them enough since they utterly failed in obeying any of that.
Actually the "them" here only applies for Tamaki. We all know how hot-headed that guy is

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As for the cell phone thing, the students are all Britannians, many of whom have may connections to figures in the Britannian occupation, so there lots of people they could contact. Besides, it's standard operational security.
The Britannians already knew that the OoBK had secured both Ashford Academy and the media zone. Besides they were having their hands full with the battle. If the students contacting for outside help would have affected the OoBk plans, Zero would have ordered all the students to be rounded up in a lock-up, with all their communication devices confiscated.

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When did I say that the Black Knights were useless as troops? I said that they were useless at securing the school.
Isnt it one and the same? Besides you clearly mentioned 3 posts ago that "it didnt work out because his troops were useless.".
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Old 2007-08-26, 01:44   Link #1119
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
The "it" here has no remote chance of occuring such that Code Geass has never shown any sides, be it Britannians or rebels, worry about it. This possibility was just an assumption on your part, given that the producers of the show have never shown any indications of it.
You've completely misinterpreted the thrust of my argument: there are all sorts of things that can cause Lelouch to lose contact with the Black Knights. They range from getting blown up to getting his communications system knocked out among other possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Chudley
A communication breakdown occuring does not equate to Zero's absence from the battlefield.
No, but my point is that the contingency that covers the one problem will cover the other as well. The lack of a contingency for a Britannian counterattack is sort of telling here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
You're incorrect. The original plan that Ougi and the rebels had in mind was to use the "poison gas" as a weapon, not engage in a battle frontier (given they only had a glasgow). However, Lelouch provided them with Sutherlands and incited them to fight, resulting in the "hot soup" situation.
That's my point - they got themselves in way over their heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Nah if you watch episode 24 again, there were 2 OoBk soldiers patrolling the basement where they stumbled upon Nina
who were looking for Ougi's assailant. That was exactly what I said. If they had conducted a proper security sweep, they'd have found Nina long beforehand; it's not as if a Knightmare Frame is all that easy for a single person to hide, or if Nina was all that interested in hiding in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Nope it definitely applies here. The OoBK army had the advantage and were pressing the Brittanian army back at their command base(remembered Cornelia ordered them to retreat to the base). Given the situation the Britannians were in, you'd expect them to commit all their forces to defending the base till reinforcements arrive. Besides you don't go about attacking your enemy's HQ when yours is under heavy enemy fire. Hence it was totally unexpected for the Avalon to turn up at Ashford Academy.
Sure you do; if your enemy is foolish enough to leave it poorly defended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
The OoBk soldiers that apprehended Viletta were not sure if she was a friend or foe, hence they brought her to Ougi to ascertain her identity.
Which was moronic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Actually the "them" here only applies for Tamaki. We all know how hot-headed that guy is
Since he had a modicum of authority, it'd apply to his immediate superior and his subordinates as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
The Britannians already knew that the OoBK had secured both Ashford Academy and the media zone. Besides they were having their hands full with the battle. If the students contacting for outside help would have affected the OoBk plans, Zero would have ordered all the students to be rounded up in a lock-up, with all their communication devices confiscated.
You'd think that that would have been the clever thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chudley
Isnt it one and the same? Besides you clearly mentioned 3 posts ago that "it didnt work out because his troops were useless."
Not quite. There's a fine difference between "they were useless [as troops] at securing the school" (which I've shown), and "they are useless troops [in general]" (which I didn't claim).
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Old 2007-08-26, 03:01   Link #1120
Chudley
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You've completely misinterpreted the thrust of my argument: there are all sorts of things that can cause Lelouch to lose contact with the Black Knights. They range from getting blown up to getting his communications system knocked out among other possibilities.
Well you certainly gave me the impression that we were only talking about that possibility.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
No, but my point is that the contingency that covers the one problem will cover the other as well. The lack of a contingency for a Britannian counterattack is sort of telling here.
The reasons of a lack of contingency plan for a Britannian counterattack have already been addressed way back.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That's my point - they got themselves in way over their heads.
It still doesnt indicate poor leadership in any sense. Put yourself in Ougi's shoes, if someone offers you the latest knightmare frame models to fight back and is able to pinpoint the enemy's exact location and anticipate their moves, you're bound to go along with him.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
who were looking for Ougi's assailant. That was exactly what I said. If they had conducted a proper security sweep, they'd have found Nina long beforehand; it's not as if a Knightmare Frame is all that easy for a single person to hide, or if Nina was all that interested in hiding in the first place.
You're underestimating the size of the school grounds. Remember an episode when Mao abducted Nunally and hid her under the school basement, which featured an elaborate structure. We also don't know how much manpower Zero comitted to securing Ashford, considering there is the media zone and the battlegrounds as well. There's a high possibility that the black knights did not have the luxury to conduct a full security sweep. Regarding Nina, she was definitely constructing the big bad Ganymede bomb in secrecy, you don't see someone building bombs in broad daylight eh? Not to mention she showed herself only after it was completed.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Sure you do; if your enemy is foolish enough to leave it poorly defended.
Therotically speaking the school is the command base for the OoBK, however what good will it have done to the Britannian army if they leveled it? If the Britannian command HQ falls, OoBK=win. However that isnt the case for the OoBK's command base (1.They had minimal troops/knightmares deployed there, 2. Zero wasnt there). In contrast, the Britannian army had their leader, vips and majority of their forces at their HQ. You seem to forget that the Britannian forces had already been backed into a corner and their only sound alternative was to hold/push back while waiting for reinforcements. Attacking the OoBk HQ here is what i deem foolish as it'll not only waste the Britannians' resources, but make their own HQ more vulnerable.

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Which was moronic.
What makes you say that? If Viletta was indeed in possession of valuable information, it'll be much more moronic if the soldiers had gunned her down without ascertaining her identity.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Since he had a modicum of authority, it'd apply to his immediate superior and his subordinates as well.
All in all Zero gave an order to not harm the students. In the end, it still came down to Tamaki's impulsiveness.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You'd think that that would have been the clever thing to do.
Lelouch is an intelligent individual and since he did not see the need to do the above action, it translates to the students posing no threat to his plans.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Not quite. There's a fine difference between "they were useless [as troops] at securing the school" (which I've shown), and "they are useless troops [in general]" (which I didn't claim).
Troops take orders from their leader and execute them accordingly. "Securing the school" was an order Zero gave to the Black Knights and since you said they screwed up big, this means that the Black Knights at Ashford failed to execute the order Zero handed down, thus failing as troops in general. There's no difference in this case and I don't see what you're trying to illustrate.
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