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Old 2008-10-09, 00:50   Link #1681
Asleep
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Originally Posted by Koshimizu View Post
Errr... This thing is not an analysis of any sort. It's the "Talking Geass" short novel series on Newtype which doesn't have "Taniguchi/Sunrise supervised" marked with it.
Thank you for putting and end to it
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Old 2008-10-09, 00:51   Link #1682
Lie
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Originally Posted by Elicit View Post
We still arguing about it? Koshimizu just said the text was only magazine fed, not Taniguchi & Co. or Sunrise staff, therefore, it has little effect other than just another interpretation. Taniguchi himself said he'd leave it up to the fans' interpretation - even if that seems to be a major cop out.

In any case, I wonder when those high-res scans will arrive... Graphics need to be made, stat.
I was typing that before Koshimizu posted anything, and it wasn't even the point of the post. I put in the disclaimer, even, that this had nothing to do with the canon. Simply that the quote is about death.
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Old 2008-10-09, 00:58   Link #1683
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
I was typing that before Koshimizu posted anything, and it wasn't even the point of the post. I put in the disclaimer, even, that this had nothing to do with the canon. Simply that the quote is about death.
And I don't necessarily disagree with you on that, I just have my own take and interpretation and I don't see why that can't fit in the implications as well. That's all really, we're still where we've always been and as such I'll maintain the policy of to each their own on the matter
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Old 2008-10-09, 00:59   Link #1684
lovecakecookies
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@ Narona.. no, I mean doesn't it seem like the thing is meant to be said by C.C.?

So, basically we have all the magazines thinking/assuming he is dead, and it will be read by many fans that will probably think that way too..

However, we still havent heard the word/confirmation from the big guys?
UGHHH
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:04   Link #1685
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Originally Posted by lovecakecookies View Post
@ Narona.. no, I mean doesn't it seem like the thing is meant to be said by C.C.?

So, basically we have all the magazines thinking/assuming he is dead, and it will be read by many fans that will probably think that way too..

However, we still havent heard the word/confirmation from the big guys?
UGHHH
When has that meant anything to fans who wanted to believe in the end, remember how Kalulu still persisted despite all the imagery of C.C and Lelouch together?

Hey, it works to their advantage and I'll take them up on that invitation in that case
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:05   Link #1686
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Originally Posted by lovecakecookies View Post
@ Narona.. no, I mean doesn't it seem like the thing is meant to be said by C.C.?

So, basically we have all the magazines thinking/assuming he is dead, and it will be read by many fans that will probably think that way too..

However, we still havent heard the word/confirmation from the big guys?
UGHHH
Ah ok. Yeah it's C.C. I think (I can't read the caption )

Yes, and I'm not sad anymore, I just want to hear it from the "big guys", then I will move on XD.

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
When has that meant anything to fans who wanted to believe in the end, remember how Kalulu still persisted despite all the imagery of C.C and Lelouch together?

Hey, it works to their advantage and I'll take them up on that invitation in that case
So much CxL pics haha XD
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:06   Link #1687
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And I don't necessarily agree with you on that, I just have my own take and interpretation and I don't see why that can't fit in the implications as well. That's all really, we're still where we've always been and as such I'll maintain the policy of to each their own on the matter
I asked you for an interpretation where life is somehow within that almost entirely cliche poem about death. You provided an example that I argued contradicted a line, which it did as the line makes no sense in the context you provided with that example. So I'm waiting...
See anyone can spin anything which ever way they want, I can spin it to say that he was abducted by aliens because he left the world. Is anyone going to take me seriously though? No.
The poem is near verbatum from the book of generic poems that allude to death.

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
When has that meant anything to fans who wanted to believe in the end, remember how Kalulu still persisted despite all the imagery of C.C and Lelouch together?
What are you even talking about? What about the C.C. and Lelouch fans that persisted in all the imagery of Lelouch and Shirley, or Lelouch and Kallen together? Sigh... Oh hell, Nunally has everyone beat.
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:07   Link #1688
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
When has that meant anything to fans who wanted to believe in the end, remember how Kalulu still persisted despite all the imagery of C.C and Lelouch together?

Hey, it works to their advantage and I'll take them up on that invitation in that case
LOL.. I dont think you can compare Lulu's fate

to teasing with pairings Krimzon.. come on...

Unless you are a serious shipper, which I think most Code Geass viewers are not /should not be.. lol
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:09   Link #1689
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
I asked you for an interpretation where life is somehow within that almost entirely cliche poem about death. You provided an example that I argued contradicted a line, which it did as the line makes no sense in the context you provided with that example. So I'm waiting...
See anyone can spin anything which ever way they want, I can spin it to say that he was abducted by aliens because he left the world. Is anyone going to take me seriously though? No.
The poem is near verbatum from the book of generic poems that allude to death.
A poem often times also serves a symbolic purpose as well as do themes and metaphors. Effectively, 'Lelouch' is dead for all intents and purposes, but at the same time I don't think that necessarily contradicts the possibility of an existence as an immortal however and instead could refer to his previous life beforehand, which is how I'm interpreting it nor do I feel anything really contradicts that type of context and take on it. And who knows, I've been known to sound very convincing on more then one occasion, I like my chances versus the alien example you put out anyway as being not quite out there or less well-reasoned

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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
What are you even talking about? What about the C.C. and Lelouch fans that persisted in all the imagery of Lelouch and Shirley, or Lelouch and Kallen together? Sigh... Oh hell, Nunally has everyone beat.
And what are you talking about? I've got only one vivid image of Shirley and Lelouch that really stuck out as possibly shipping, and I've not like no recollection of any implicit imagery for Kallen. Now, if I look at the stockpile of LelouchXC.C pictures however, I think I can say that I'm noticing a trend where the magazines are leaning towards. Not like that stops anyone since as they say, its far from official. They are nice pictures though, and it is a nice poem and I will end it on that note since I really do need to get some sleep
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:20   Link #1690
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
A poem often times also serves a symbolic purpose as well as do themes and metaphors. Effectively, 'Lelouch' is dead for all intents and purposes, but at the same time I don't think that necessarily contradicts the possibility of an existence as an immortal however and instead could refer to his previous life beforehand, which is how I'm interpreting it nor do I feel anything really contradicts that type of context and take on it. And who knows, I've been known to sound very convincing on more then one occasion, I like my chances versus the alien example you put out anyway as being not quite out there or less well-reasoned
You're hardly being convincing, especially since you're not countering the point that him existing contradicts the line 'rest at ease in me, because dreams are eternal'. Eternal rest has nothing to do with life, especially not immortal life. Let alone that the 'in me' part makes no sense in a context where he is alive and not, say for the sake of example, a memory.

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And what are you talking about? I've got only one vivid image of Shirley and Lelouch that really stuck out as possibly shipping, and I've not like no recollection of any implicit imagery for Kallen. Now, if I look at the stockpile of LelouchXC.C pictures however, I think I can say that I'm noticing a trend where the magazines are leaning towards. Not like that stops anyone since as they say, its far from official. They are nice pictures though, and I it is a nice poem and I will end it on that note
Do you mean from magazines? Because magazines are about marketing, so its more appropriate that putting Lelouch and C.C. in compromising positions is more lucrative (is that even a good thing?). Which is in turn a domino effect because that is what people start to think when they watch the show. Had they picked Euphemia, for instance, you'd have the same domino effect. Further, that the number of official pictures produced by CLAMP are far more numerous in the Suzaku x Lelouch dynamic, and I'm left wondering what your point is. If you meant fanart, then that is countless in every direction.

I mean, if we're going to go by what is being released by non-canon sources towards pairings, then Kallen and Lelouch fans have two entire manga that is heavily in their favor. So, really, what is your point? It all depends where you look, if you look only at one source of course it will favor one thing. If you look at all sources, then you'll notice that the diversity is spread all over. It was what, two months ago?, that Newtype had an entire section on Kallen dedicated to her and was predominantely about Lelouch.
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:32   Link #1691
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
You're hardly being convincing, especially since you're not countering the point that him existing contradicts the line 'rest at ease in me, because dreams are eternal'. Eternal rest has nothing to do with life, especially not immortal life. Let alone that the 'in me' part makes no sense in a context where he is alive and not, say for the sake of example, a memory.
Or maybe you're just not listening to what I'm saying. Effectively his dreams are eternal now, was always the eternal one in a sense, the ones for world peace he's passed that on to everyone and in their hearts they will work to carry that on as well for him. His struggle is effectively over in my view, and in this case he can take that rest he so richly deserves, whether alive or dead, I see nothing that really contradicts that in this case.

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Do you mean from magazines? Because magazines are about marketing, so its more appropriate that putting Lelouch and C.C. in compromising positions is more lucrative (is that even a good thing?). Which is in turn a domino effect because that is what people start to think when they watch the show. Had they picked Euphemia, for instance, you'd have the same domino effect. Further, that the number of official pictures produced by CLAMP are far more numerous in the Suzaku x Lelouch dynamic, and I'm left wondering what your point is. If you meant fanart, then that is countless in every direction.
Well, main point is that effectively these pictures were not the concrete evidence, nor is much of what these magazines put out in general, and thus fans will still be fans and persists in what they think because of that.

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I mean, if we're going to go by what is being released by non-canon sources towards pairings, then Kallen and Lelouch fans have two entire manga that is heavily in their favor. So, really, what is your point? It all depends where you look, if you look only at one source of course it will favor one thing. If you look at all sources, then you'll notice that the diversity is spread all over. It was what, two months ago?, that Newtype had an entire section on Kallen dedicated to her and was predominantely about Lelouch.
And that says what in the end? A whole bunch of nothing really, this is primarly about credible evidence as you put it, and lack of it in this case allows the persistence of opinion once again, especially in regards to a lot of these different images with Kallen or C.C and what not which cannot necessarily be countered on the matter or explicitly denied that such a take and interpretation is actually wrong. And that's my whole point, especially in regards to a guy who takes such heed to evidence, don't even try man, I've basically patent that argument in these forums in regards to that.
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:42   Link #1692
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Or maybe you're just not listening to what I'm saying. Effectively his dreams are eternal now, was always the eternal one in a sense, the ones for world peace he's passed that on to everyone and in their hearts they will work to carry that on as well for him. His struggle is effectively over in my view, and in this case he can take that rest he so richly deserves, whether alive or dead, I see nothing that really contradicts that in this case.
But immortality is not peaceful, that's been established in this show. It is not eternal rest because it is not constant, it defies logic to say that something as inconsistent as living, is peaceful. Any number of bad things can happen to make it not peaceful, whereas the poem implies eternal and unbroken peace. And again, what does 'rest at ease in me" have anything to do with him being alive? I'm not seeing this.


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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Well, main point is that effectively these pictures were not the concrete evidence, nor is much of what these magazines put out in general, and thus fans will still be fans and persists in what they think because of that.

And that says what in the end? A whole bunch of nothing really, this is primarly about credible evidence as you put it, and lack of it in this case allows the persistence of opinion once again, especially in regards to a lot of these different images with Kallen or C.C and what not which cannot necessarily be countered on the matter or explicitly denied that such a take and interpretation is actually wrong. And that's my whole point, especially in regards to a guy who takes such heed to evidence, don't even try man, I've basically patent that argument in these forums in regards to that.
But no one was arguing for them being some sort of great credibility. They are a source of information that can at times impart canonical information from the mouths of the creators, but aside from that it is opinions. So I'm still not sure what your point was, which is what I asked you. Your post makes no point, its like listening to a politician. You made two paragraphs but said nothing. Look at your first paragraph and compare it to the second one, they contradict. First you say that they are not concrete evidence, then you go to say that nothing can be explicitly denied about those pictures? How so? If the pictures are not concrete evidence and are not canonical, then it is very easy to deny their meaning in relation to the canon. People do not contest the Star Wars canon by bringing in Lego Star Wars or Darth Vader vs. Anikin Skywalker fights. They can be made to happen, and they can be released to the world, but they aren't canon, so arguing them in relation to the canon sounds... backwards.
Its good to see that you are quite full of yourself too.
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:50   Link #1693
lovecakecookies
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oh man so many walls of text.. If you dont want to listen to what the magazines state.. thats fine!! but I wonder how people would react of one implied he was alive?


who cares..

at this rate there will be some sort of confirmation or something implied for Lulu soon By O or T....

... I hope

come on someone translate those interviews!!
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:51   Link #1694
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at this rate there will be some sort of confirmation or something implied for Lulu soon By O or T....

... I hope

come on someone translate those interviews!!
Wasn't Celiss Galvea already quoted on the Okuchi portion about Lelouch, but people started arguing against that and dismissed her opinion.
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Old 2008-10-09, 01:53   Link #1695
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But immortality is not peaceful, that's been established in this show. It is not eternal rest because it is not constant, it defies logic to say that something as inconsistent as living, is peaceful. Any number of bad things can happen to make it not peaceful, whereas the poem implies eternal and unbroken peace. And again, what does 'rest at ease in me" have anything to do with him being alive? I'm not seeing this.
And its not necessarily bad either, but in terms of what I'm trying to imply here its about peace in general, the world peace that Lelouch has brought about now and effectively the setting he would be living in even if he can no longer be an actual part of it, and that idea which is being carried on in the hearts of everyone, his memory and legacy which will spur them on to action whether they hate him or love him. More then anything, I have a take that the poem could simply be referring to the idea of him, once again going back to what I mean by symbolic meaning, and thus does not necessarily contradict the possibility that once again he is alive.


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But no one was arguing for them being some sort of great credibility. They are a source of information that can at times impart canonical information from the mouths of the creators, but aside from that it is opinions. So I'm still not sure what your point was, which is what I asked you. Your post makes no point, its like listening to a politician. You made two paragraphs but said nothing. Look at your first paragraph and compare it to the second one, they contradict. First you say that they are not concrete evidence, then you go to say that nothing can be explicitly denied about those pictures? How so? If the pictures are not concrete evidence and are not canonical, then it is very easy to deny their meaning in relation to the canon. People do not contest the Star Wars canon by bringing in Lego Star Wars or Darth Vader vs. Anikin Skywalker fights. They can be made to happen, and they can be released to the world, but they aren't canon, so arguing them in relation to the canon sounds... backwards.
Its good to see that you are quite full of yourself too.
Oh plenty of people did back before you showed up, and plenty of people put them down for that because of it, which was my point. Effectively though, neither persons could be proven to actually be wrong in this case, which is my point about interpretation and opinion if you had actually been listening. That is the nature of interpretation and opinion when they confront one another, and that is the type of argument we are currently having right now, in relation to Darth Vadar vs Anakin Skywalker and what have you, and effectively this is a backwards discussion. In the end, you have your views and I have mine and that is the only thing that can really be said as being concrete, though you of course argue otherwise and making things out to be concrete when they really aren't And honestly, you need to lighten up some time really, I was making a joke about me own past in regards to this, I often used these same arguments you're making and you can ask anyone on the matter that actually paid attention to my old debates with other posters, but effectively if you're going to resort to putting me down then I'll say from experience that you're certainly conceited on the whole. Anyway, I'm done with this, effectively this is nothing more then a backward argument which was my ultimate point that I was trying to get across, so it becomes pointless to continue as we each have our own views and neither of us have convinced the other that they are right nor can they necessarily prove the other wrong either. So I'll end it on that note, and now I am really off to bed

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Wasn't Celiss Galvea already quoted on the Okuchi portion about Lelouch, but people started arguing against that and dismissed her opinion.
If you're referring to me, or what I'm currently leading my group with on the matter then I took a different interpretation on the meaning behind that portion as well, and found that it didn't contradict the possibility that Lelouch might still be around in the scenarios brought up on that possibility. Ultimately, you yourself seem to be missing something and that being the directors last words on the matter as a whole to how the end should be viewed and its aftermath, leaving it up to our imaginations. Of course that doesn't stop people from dismissing that statement either however, and thus we are back to the pointless arguments that ultimately will not go anywhere in the end without more concrete evidence and less ambiguous statements.
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg

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Old 2008-10-09, 01:54   Link #1696
lovecakecookies
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Wasn't Celiss Galvea already quoted on the Okuchi portion about Lelouch, but people started arguing against that and dismissed her opinion.
Well, we need the whole thing translated I guess.. and I am still waiting for the Taniguchi interview too.. about the imagination thing..
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Old 2008-10-09, 02:10   Link #1697
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And its not necessarily bad either, but in terms of what I'm trying to imply here its about peace in general, the world peace that Lelouch has brought about now and effectively the setting he would be living in even if he can no longer be an actual part of it, and that idea which is being carried on in the hearts of everyone, his memory and legacy which will spur them on to action whether they hate him or love him. More then anything, I have a take that the poem could simply be referring to the idea of him, once again going back to what I mean by symbolic meaning, and thus does not necessarily contradict the possibility that once again he is alive.
There is no guarantee, is my point. You are trying to stretch the meaning way too far. The world peace, especially this one, is not a realistic or permanent dream. If he is alive then his dream will inevitably be dashed in front of his eyes when another tyrant rises to power. A dream is only eternal if it is ethereal, the moment you apply reality to it, is when, at any point in time, it can become a nightmare. So it is not an eternal dream, and the entire poem stops making sense.
I don't have a problem with what you are saying(even though it does seem to change from post to post) but they are not making complete sense with the poem unless you make large divergences. The idea of him is one thing that will never leave the world, you even said so yourself. Meaning, the first stanza now doesn't make sense. First the 'in me' line didn't make sense, so we went to the idea of him, but now the entire first stanza doesn't make sense.

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Oh plenty of people did back before you showed up, and plenty of people put them down for that because of it, which was my point. Effectively though, neither persons could be proven to actually be wrong in this case, which is my point about interpretation and opinion if you had actually been listening. That is the nature of interpretation and opinion when they confront one another, and that is the type of argument we are currently having right now, in relation to Darth Vadar vs Anakin Skywalker and what have you, and effectively this is a backwards discussion. In the end, you have your views and I have mine and that is the only thing that can really be said as being concrete, though you of course argue otherwise and making things out to be concrete when they really aren't And honestly, you need to lighten up some time really, I was making a joke about me own past in regards to this, I often used these same arguments you're making and you can ask anyone on the matter that actually paid attention to my old debates with other posters, but effectively if you're going to resort to putting me down then I'll say from experience that you're certainly conceited on the whole. Anyway, I'm done with this, effectively this is nothing more then a backward argument which was my ultimate point that I was trying to get across, so it becomes pointless to continue as we each have our own views and neither of us have convinced the other that they are right nor can they necessarily prove the other wrong either. So I'll end it on that note, and now I am really off to bed
I'm not trying to convince you of anything in this, actually. I was pointing out that there is nothing to be had in this because it all depends on where a person looks. If the person looks to their right, they will, naturally see what is on their right and not on their left. Which ties into the pointlessness of bringing up the magazines or anything for that matter in relation to the canon because it is all a matter of where one looks and what they are looking for. I was attempting to show you that the magazines are a source of generally pointless information because what generally comes out of it is not canon. Which I still don't see why you even contested, when that was seemingly what you were trying to wittily portray.


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If you're referring to me, then I took a different interpretation on the meaning behind that portion as well, and found that it didn't contradict the possibility that Lelouch might still be around in the scenarios brought up on that possibility. Ultimately, you yourself seem to be missing something and that being the directors last words on the matter as a whole to how the end should be viewed and its aftermath, leaving it up to our imaginations. Of course that doesn't stop people from dismissing that statement either however, and thus we are back to the pointless arguments that ultimately will not go anywhere in the end without more concrete evidence.
Sigh. You realize that the epilogue is after Lelouch 'died', do you not? Lelouch died before the epilogue, his death is being contested at that point. So what Taniguchi said amounts to nothing more than ambiguity. He could easily come out, five minutes from now, and say 'Lelouch died before the epilogue'. He doesn't contradict himself.
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Old 2008-10-09, 02:23   Link #1698
KrimzonStriker
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There is no guarantee, is my point. You are trying to stretch the meaning way too far. The world peace, especially this one, is not a realistic or permanent dream. If he is alive then his dream will inevitably be dashed in front of his eyes when another tyrant rises to power. A dream is only eternal if it is ethereal, the moment you apply reality to it, is when, at any point in time, it can become a nightmare. So it is not an eternal dream, and the entire poem stops making sense.
I don't have a problem with what you are saying(even though it does seem to change from post to post) but they are not making complete sense with the poem unless you make large divergences. The idea of him is one thing that will never leave the world, you even said so yourself. Meaning, the first stanza now doesn't make sense. First the 'in me' line didn't make sense, so we went to the idea of him, but now the entire first stanza doesn't make sense.
There is no guarantee on anything in the matter because it is our interpretation. If you're talking about the dream of world peace, etc etc. then I have to disagree because of the statements concerning the World of C between Lelouch and Suzaku, about how they saw that everyone longs for tomorrow in that world, they simply need to realize it and that is what ultimately allowed Lelouch to place his faith and inspire people to achieve this wish, essentially that dream is the eternal one in his view anyway so I find your statement on the matter rather lacking now. Once again, I simply do not find anything that really contradicts this interpretation I'm making, does it necessarily have to be the right one? No, but at the same time I don't quite see how you can says its wrong on the matter either.


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I'm not trying to convince you of anything in this, actually. I was pointing out that there is nothing to be had in this because it all depends on where a person looks. If the person looks to their right, they will, naturally see what is on their right and not on their left. Which ties into the pointlessness of bringing up the magazines or anything for that matter in relation to the canon because it is all a matter of where one looks and what they are looking for. I was attempting to show you that the magazines are a source of generally pointless information because what generally comes out of it is not canon. Which I still don't see why you even contested, when that was seemingly what you were trying to wittily portray.
I didn't contest anything on the matter, I was making this a point and example against what you yourself have been trying to argue and prove against those that tend to believe that Lelouch is alive, and that in general such a stance becomes rather pointless because in the end you cannot and definitively have not done so and until we have material that can explicitly and reliably say so then the whole matter as the director said, is up to our imagination once again.


Quote:
Sigh. You realize that the epilogue is after Lelouch 'died', do you not? Lelouch died before the epilogue, his death is being contested at that point. So what Taniguchi said amounts to nothing more than ambiguity. He could easily come out, five minutes from now, and say 'Lelouch died before the epilogue'. He doesn't contradict himself.
Uggh, do you even read my statements I wonder? I have agree with the statement that 'Lelouch' did die in the end, in terms of both name along with the actual scene, that does not however dismiss the possibility that he could have come back however after that and perhaps begun a new life possibly as an immortal which would theoretically be the only plausible way in which he could come back, and which is now a question now in the epilogue, one in which I think is encouraged now as something up to our own interpretation about what happened afterward as you have apparently stated The whole point though, is that the statement gives way to ambiguity on the matter, and as such is once again 'left to our imaginations' and once again where technically either view on the matter could work and nothing explicitly says they cannot now. So once again, you have your views, I have mine, as does everyone else and so we will hopefully end this discussion already and you can stop replying because really this is getting us nowhere which was my whole point >_>
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-10-09, 02:35   Link #1699
Lie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
There is no guarantee on anything in the matter because it is our interpretation. If you're talking about the dream of world peace, etc etc. then I have to disagree because of the statements concerning the World of C between Lelouch and Suzaku, about how they saw that everyone longs for tomorrow in that world, they simply need to realize it and that is what ultimately allowed Lelouch to place his faith and inspire people to achieve this wish, essentially that dream is the eternal one in his view anyway so I find your statement on the matter rather lacking now. Once again, I simply do not find anything that really contradicts this interpretation I'm making, does it necessarily have to be the right one? No, but at the same time I don't quite see how you can says its wrong on the matter either.
So, you entirely dodged the fact that the 'idea of him' renders the first stanza irrelevant. Good to know.
You also have an impecable ability to do turns on a dime to change what you are saying. I will applaud you for it. Because now we've gone from his dream being about the peace of the world, to being about people looking forward to tomorrow. And this still isn't a guarantee. What happens if another Schneizel appears? Or a Charles? What happens if someone wipes out the world? There are countless scenarios that turn the dream into a nightmare. All this so that he is alive? When resting peacefully, eternally knowing that he helped the world and never seeing anything bad happen to his dream, sounds like a much better deal.
Not to mention that Lelouch being immortal and alive does not remove him from the world, not in any form. He can easily be brought back into the world with or without his consent. C.C. never left the world when she became immortal, why would Lelouch? He is removed from the present as long as no one finds him, but that is it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I didn't contest anything on the matter, I was making this a point and example against what you yourself have been trying to argue and prove against those that tend to believe that Lelouch is alive, and that in general such a stance becomes rather pointless because in the end you cannot and definitively have not done so and until we have material that can explicitly and reliably say so then the whole matter as the director said, is up to our imagination once again.
What? Bringing up random magazine pictures against what Oukuchi said is not an equivalent argument, if that was your meaning. I've not even tried to use the poem as a means to prove that Lelouch is dead or not, I've been arguing that the poem itself is a metaphor about death. It has nothing to do with the canon and is a discussion purely for enjoyment.
The only thing I've used is Oukuchi's words, which is far more credible than a random magazine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Uggh, do you even read my statements I wonder? I have agree with the statement that 'Lelouch' did die in the end, in terms of both name along with the actual scene, that does not however dismiss the possibility that he could have come back however after that and perhaps begun a new life possibly as an immortal which would theoretically be the only plausible way in which he could come back, and which is now a question now in the epilogue, one in which I think is encouraged now as something up to our own interpretation about what happened afterward as you have apparently stated The whole point though, is that the statement gives way to ambiguity on the matter, and as such is once again 'left to our imaginations' and once again where technically either view on the matter could work and nothing explicitly says they cannot now. So once again, you have your views, I have mine, as does everyone else and so we will hopefully end this discussion already and you can stop replying because really this is getting us nowhere which was my whole point >_>
-_-

I'm going to try this again. Lelouch, the person, is being contested to have died, but his death occurs before the epilogue, which is months later. Taniguchi saying he won't say anything about the epilogue is ambiguous because he could easily say that Lelouch, the person, died before the epilogue. You seem to be jumping for the sake of jumping at this point.
This had nothing to do with you, but with the ambiguity of what Taniguchi said. The statement is so ambiguous that he could easily say Lelouch is dead dead, and not contradict himself.
Short form: His statement is so ambiguous that it doesn't even tell you anything. It does not guarantee anything one way or the other, we are where we were this morning.
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Old 2008-10-09, 02:55   Link #1700
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
So, you entirely dodged the fact that the 'idea of him' renders the first stanza irrelevant. Good to know.
You also have an impecable ability to do turns on a dime to change what you are saying. I will applaud you for it. Because now we've gone from his dream being about the peace of the world, to being about people looking forward to tomorrow. And this still isn't a guarantee. What happens if another Schneizel appears? Or a Charles? What happens if someone wipes out the world? There are countless scenarios that turn the dream into a nightmare. All this so that he is alive? When resting peacefully, eternally knowing that he helped the world and never seeing anything bad happen to his dream, sounds like a much better deal.
Not to mention that Lelouch being immortal and alive does not remove him from the world, not in any form. He can easily be brought back into the world with or without his consent. C.C. never left the world when she became immortal, why would Lelouch? He is removed from the present as long as no one finds him, but that is it.
Well, either that or you just weren't following me on the matter at all in this case. I tend to think the transitions I make are very much related to one another. Is he not, or was he not a part of that world? His dream essentially everyone elses dream in this case, the thing he did though was his ability to enable them to carry it out, hence my allusion to them carrying on his sacrifice by realizing this universal wish that he sacrificed himself for. And why suddenly can that not essentially be the symbolic meaning that I am getting at, a removal from himself, from time and the present conditions of the world? He can rest, for now at least, but I feel that on the whole it would be better for him to remain alive in this case, as he can now observe and monitor against such an occurrence essentially forever in this case and help carry on this dream that he and the world shares in the bottom of their hearts.
Quote:
What? Bringing up random magazine pictures against what Oukuchi said is not an equivalent argument, if that was your meaning. I've not even tried to use the poem as a means to prove that Lelouch is dead or not, I've been arguing that the poem itself is a metaphor about death. It has nothing to do with the canon and is a discussion purely for enjoyment.
The only thing I've used is Oukuchi's words, which is far more credible than a random magazine.
And I've been arguing that it doesn't necessarily have to be literal death as well at the same time, more symbolic of a symbolic rest and 'death in this case, and that goes back to the core of our entire argument concerning opinions in this case. As for Okouchi, well I have an opinion on that as well but since I need sleep already I'll skip that and end this in the last statement once again.

Quote:
-_-

I'm going to try this again. Lelouch, the person, is being contested to have died, but his death occurs before the epilogue, which is months later. Taniguchi saying he won't say anything about the epilogue is ambiguous because he could easily say that Lelouch, the person, died before the epilogue. You seem to be jumping for the sake of jumping at this point.
This had nothing to do with you, but with the ambiguity of what Taniguchi said. The statement is so ambiguous that he could easily say Lelouch is dead dead, and not contradict himself.
Short form: His statement is so ambiguous that it doesn't even tell you anything. It does not guarantee anything one way or the other, we are where we were this morning.
Arrggh, you think you have something to complain about in terms of repetition and people not listening to their arguments? Rarely have I run across someone as thick-headed as you are demonstrating with an inability to actually comprehend what a person is saying or getting at essentially. I merely offered my opinion and take on the whole matte,r as has been the case throughout the entirety of this argument which I once again point out is getting us nowhere, and stated that my interpretation on the matter, with a position that his 'death' scene does not suddenly contradict the point raised in the epilogue on whether or not he essentially stayed dead. That's my perspective on the matter, and as you say the whole thing is still as ambiguous, everything is still once again leaning to favor neither one side or the other, and once again this whole argument is simply going around in circles. You have your views on the matter, I have mine, so let us end it on that note already dammit >_>
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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