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Old 2006-08-29, 19:21   Link #41
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch
ZOMG Kira is a newtype coordinator? what's the oldtype coordinator?
That would be Mwu, methinks. Before they were able to manufacture full-on Coordinators

"Mwu, last of the New Types" according to FATkuda.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-29, 19:51   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Now that I think about it, the reason why Kira performed less-than-satisfactory in the Strike Rouge might be due to the fact that he had not the time to set it up to his personal configurations.
Except, you know, the whole part about him telling Murdoch to reload it with his personal settings (which is why it reverts to blue and red PS armor instead of the pink and red).
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Old 2006-08-29, 20:03   Link #43
Tak
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan
Except, you know, the whole part about him telling Murdoch to reload it with his personal settings (which is why it reverts to blue and red PS armor instead of the pink and red).
And except, you know, Murdoch is a hardware technician, not a software engineer (notice how he never touched the software portion of Gundams since SEED?). He only gave it the Aile Strike configuration because Kira demanded it. It didn't even turn to the blue / red PS armor until Kira hopped into the cockpit, for all we know, he might have done it himself.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-29 at 20:13.
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Old 2006-08-29, 20:07   Link #44
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
So the extendeds suck more than the grunts Kira was fighting in Strike Rouge ?
IMO suit doesnt make THAT much of a difference - look at Athrun and Yzak - kicks extended ass(badly) in mass produced grunt suits. Ofc the suit makes some difference, but not that much - it has been shown that there can be a case where man makes the machine

Quote:
^ Yeah, thats the point I think. If Athrun can pilot a Zaku out of the blue, I don't see why Kira couldn't pilot the Freedom after two years, considering the fact that he knows the Freedom as much as he knows himself.
Well Kira, being a specially talented student, was able to pilot the Strike effectively enough after watching Murrue pilot it for a bit.
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Old 2006-08-29, 20:28   Link #45
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I think that Kira's skills not decaying in two years is more believable than the speed with whichKira acquired those skills in the first place in GS. But then, can't the same be said of Amuro and a boatload of other pilots?
I don't recall Amuro taking out upwards of 30 mobile suits with a single attack. Ever.

Kira was well deserving of praise for his victories in the Strike, but praising him for pressing the "Spam Attack #2" button in Strike Freedom's cockpit does not warrant praise.

Where's Norris Packard when you need a well choreographed and interesting battle sequence...
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Old 2006-08-29, 20:57   Link #46
Anh_Minh
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Yeah, well, that:
- just means that Freedom, rather than Kira, is overpowered (but no more than, say, Impulse.) Also, grunts definitely need to learn how to use shields.
- doesn't address my point at all, which is that the skills of many pilots, not just Kira or even just in the CE, practically fall from the sky. "Magically remains despite being out of practice" is less unbelievable than "magically appears despite no practice whatsoever", which is a stapple of gundam and, indeed, many mecha shows.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2006-08-29 at 22:06.
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Old 2006-08-29, 22:26   Link #47
4Tran
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I'm going to go against the flow a little here, and say that, yes, Kira is overpowered. However, he's not anymore so than Athrun, Shinn, Rey, Amuro, Heero, Garrod, and so forth. The shows share the conceit that a single pilot can be capable of massively altering the flow of an entire war. To me, this is the very essence of "overpowered". It's also pretty much part and parcel of the "Super Gundam" phenomenon that I dislike so much.
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Old 2006-08-30, 02:13   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
"Mwu, last of the New Types" according to FATkuda.
That was before he even got the green light for Destiny or had the idea to create it. Old news.
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Old 2006-08-30, 04:49   Link #49
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Hey, it takes skills to shoot at 30 objects accurately, even if they do not show the details of that operation, it is assumed that the greater task the greater skill needed. I guess that question really complains about the presentation, or lack thereof, of kira's skills.
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Old 2006-08-30, 08:35   Link #50
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire
Kira overpowered? No way. Besides what have already been written... :

1) Kira isn't just a Coordinator. He's Ultimate Coordinator, never forget that. And we can't be sure just how much his abilities were tweaked up.
Except that the main point of the ultimate part was supposed to mean that he wasn't effected like others who stay in their mother's womb. But hey, that can always be ignored.
Quote:
2) Newtype flash he experiences while piloting the Strike Freedom for the first time is undeniable. Moreover, he can detect Rau and Rey in the way Mwu does. He IS a newtype, albeit probably a weak one.
Yet being a newtype doesn't mean you can defeat multiple gundams and multiple new mass produced MS without receiving a single scratch.
Quote:
3) Logic in argument about two years between GS and GSD is flawed. He got his time to warm up in the battle with the assasins sent to kill Lacus. And probably even more in the time he isn't shown in the show before he appears to stop Minerva from firing it's positron cannon. We don't know what he did during this time and it's at least probable that he fought for at least one time.
Yet again there's still a clear difference between taking out a few mass produced MS piloted by basically faceless characters and the huge number of Windams and Gundam type MS that are around. Doing it also without having to directly kill any of these MS in ep 23 while not receiving a single scratch is just still absurd. And it should be obvious that we don't have Kira doing much fighting at all between the assassination attempt and ep 23.
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4) Freedom in GS is far much powerfull than standard grunt MS. It is not only because of firepower which is impressive, it's also because of nuclear reactor AND HiMAT which give him agility and speed far beyond Dagger's, Astray's or GuAIZ's. Heck, even beyond Forbidden, Raider and Calamity's.
Except that Gundams aren't suppose to be simply grunt suits that get taken without being able to at least actually retaliate. Even more so when the MS in GSD are suppose to be more advance on some level with the Phantom Pain consisting of druggies that should have gone through hell in terms of training and combat.
Quote:
6) For anyone surprised that Shinn and Rey got their *** kicked in not very long time - rewatch first ten episodes of GSD. See again the surprised Shinn's face when he says "so this is the power of those who survived Yakin Due". By the time main GSD cast was still green, all the old GS cast, not only Asuran and Kira but Yzak and Deakka too, were black-belt masters and piloting legends. And as Shinn, Luna and Rey skills grew through GSD, so did the rest's.
In other words: if Shinn or Rey had fought Kira or Asuran at the beggining of GSD, they would probably got defeated in the same way.
With you completely ignoring that not only Shinn was able to fight and defeat Kira between the beginning and end, we at least have it that Shinn and Rey were willing to prepare themselves ahead of time to gain victory. Yet this seems as if it never happened when faced with the same enemy and Athrun's MS as an extra problem. Your argument can also just simply not make sense when there should be a difference between how they are at the beginning and at the end of a series unless you can prove that there has been no occurence or development between these points.
Quote:
7) Kira as a pilot has a serious flaw. He relies on his sense of rightness and justice and his emotions way too much for a pilot. He was downed by Shinn because of that. Overpowered Emo pilot? XD
Mmk. Nice to know that someone losing can only be attributed to them simply being a friendly emo.
Quote:
I'm going to go against the flow a little here, and say that, yes, Kira is overpowered. However, he's not anymore so than Athrun, Shinn, Rey, Amuro, Heero, Garrod, and so forth. The shows share the conceit that a single pilot can be capable of massively altering the flow of an entire war. To me, this is the very essence of "overpowered". It's also pretty much part and parcel of the "Super Gundam" phenomenon that I dislike so much.
Point out when these other characters defeat multiple gundams and mass produced MS in basically the same short time with complete ease without getting any damage whatsoever after not piloting an MS in battle for quite some time. Much less that at least with Amuro and rest is still showed in a more logical reasoning on how they actually have an impact.
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Old 2006-08-30, 08:46   Link #51
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Point out when these other characters defeat multiple gundams and mass produced MS in basically the same short time with complete ease without getting any damage whatsoever after not piloting an MS in battle for quite some time. Much less that at least with Amuro and rest is still showed in a more logical reasoning on how they actually have an impact.
This is irrelevant to my point. A single pilot simply cannot play more than a minor role in a major war. Assigning them any more influence than that is automatically making them overpowered.
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Old 2006-08-30, 09:32   Link #52
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334
That was before he even got the green light for Destiny or had the idea to create it. Old news.
And that being old news is relevant in what way?

Anyway, technical speaking, Mwu would be the last New Type, because the others, that being Ray and Rau, are dead.

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-30, 09:42   Link #53
neodrag38
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
This is irrelevant to my point. A single pilot simply cannot play more than a minor role in a major war. Assigning them any more influence than that is automatically making them overpowered.
Your point still not covering what others would actually criticize Kira for when it comes to being overpowered. Where the use of "overpowered" isn't only simply for that of someone having more than a minor role in a major war.
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Old 2006-08-30, 09:51   Link #54
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Yet being a newtype doesn't mean you can defeat multiple gundams and multiple new mass produced MS without receiving a single scratch.

And yet, nobody said anything about Shinn? The boy stopped an entire ORB fleet virtually all by himself in the Sword Impulse, and let me remind you all, he did not get a 'single scratch' in the process.

- Tak (And this is Gundam, a show accustomed to casting overpowered super pilots, I don't even know why this issue is even brought up!)
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Old 2006-08-30, 09:55   Link #55
neodrag38
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Though he at least received some damage in ep 13 with the later battle where he destroys the Orb fleet he had to give up on one of his packs to take out Auel. And this all still doesn't compare to what Kira does without even having to directly kill someone much less give a sense that he's actualy in danger. But I will admit that him taking out so many Windams was quite odd.

So really, it remains that in the past plenty enough people bring up that Shinn taking out so many Windams isn't exactly logical nor always entertaining.
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:04   Link #56
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38

So really, it remains that in the past plenty enough people bring up that Shinn taking out so many Windams isn't exactly logical nor always entertaining.
Once again, this is Gundam. There are many pilots before CE who took out squadrons after squadrons of mobile suits without flinching.

Kira had a lot of scratches during SEED, but once he had the Freedom, the trend stopped, as far as grunt MS are concerned. Likewise, after Shinn received a few scratches, he had enough practice to simply wade through grunt MS afterwards. Its simply a trend to most named pilots in the show, including the lesser well-known ones, Yzak included (if there is anyone in GSD who did not get a single scratch, it would be Yzak).

- Tak
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:17   Link #57
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Once again, this is Gundam. There are many pilots before CE who took out squadrons after squadrons of mobile suits without flinching.
So Amuro never flinches? Remains that you can't really list out most of the pilots taking out multiple MS as if it were as easy as taking a stroll on a nice cool day.
Quote:
Kira had a lot of scratches during SEED, but once he had the Freedom, the trend stopped, as far as grunt MS are concerned. Likewise, after Shinn received a few scratches, he had enough practice to simply wade through grunt MS afterwards. Its simply a trend to most named pilots in the show, including the lesser well-known ones, Yzak included (if there is anyone in GSD who did not get a single scratch, it would be Yzak).

- Tak
Not really. The trend of Kira pwning anything that comes his way didn't really seem to exist when facing only three gundams piloted by druggies. Shinn still at least has to make some effort to take out another Gundam, also for that of a certain MA. So I find it more believable and interesting for him to do what he did for killing Auel rather than Kira swooping in to take out multiple Gundams as if they simply are flying around without a care in the world. And last I checked we don't to see much of Yzak in GSD anyway where he's either fighting together with other Jachin Due pilots rather than on his own. But I still got mad respect for Yzak. I can only imagine how fun things would be if he was Shinn's commanding officer instead of Athrun.
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:27   Link #58
Tak
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Originally Posted by neodrag38
So Amuro never flinches? Remains that you can't really list out most of the pilots taking out multiple MS as if it were as easy as taking a stroll on a nice cool day.
As I said already, in the beginning, everybody gets scratches (emotional or otherwise), after a while, no longer the case. You see Amuro flinching in CCA? No way, the man was calm all the way through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Not really. The trend of Kira pwning anything that comes his way didn't really seem to exist when facing only three gundams piloted by druggies.
Thats what I said. As far as grunts are concerned, Kira needed not to spend a lot of effort dealing with them, untile named pilots showed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Shinn still at least has to make some effort to take out another Gundam, also for that of a certain MA. So I find it more believable and interesting for him to do what he did for killing Auel rather than Kira swooping in to take out multiple Gundams as if they simply are flying around without a care in the world.
Blame plot holes for this one. To Kira's credit, it took him a very long time to handle the druggines in GS. Kira being overpowered in GSD is ultimately the writer's decision. We can argue our brains out, but it won't change the fact that he was made as he was in the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
And last I checked we don't to see much of Yzak in GSD anyway where he's either fighting together with other Jachin Due pilots rather than on his own. But I still got mad respect for Yzak. I can only imagine how fun things would be if he was Shinn's commanding officer instead of Athrun.
Personally, I believe Yzak is one of the reasons why the second war turned to Lacus' favor. Its too bad we didn't see much of him around. He might not be the best pilot, but he is definately fourth best, and while he might not be able to win a duel against the top 3, he can royally screw things up for everyone if he chooses to. Yes, so in agreement, I have mad respect for him.

And your dream may just come true, now with Athrun back in ORB again, the only individual with a higher rank than Shinn is Yzak

- Tak (Where is Shiho when you need her...)
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:33   Link #59
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Your point still not covering what others would actually criticize Kira for when it comes to being overpowered. Where the use of "overpowered" isn't only simply for that of someone having more than a minor role in a major war.
How is this important? To me, a jumped-up Second Lieutenant able to alter a world-wide conflict is a far better example of being “overpowered” than one capable of defeating large numbers of foes. While the latter may bug me in an aesthetic sense, it’s the former that’s far more relevant to the topic. You can argue over the trivia of how much one pilot is overpowered than another, all you want, but I'm not really interested in that subject.
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:33   Link #60
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Neodrag: Yes, because Shinn and co destroying Destroys (supposedly gundams. No, really!) is so interesting...
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