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Old 2006-08-30, 10:38   Link #61
Tak
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Neodrag: Yes, because Shinn and co destroying Destroys (supposedly gundams. No, really!) is so interesting...
Oh, how could I forget about that. Shinn pretty much singlehandedly did all that himself...

- Tak (Just what am I going to do without you Anh-Minh...)
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:39   Link #62
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
As I said already, in the beginning, everybody gets scratches (emotional or otherwise), after a while, no longer the case. You see Amuro flinching in CCA? No way, the man was calm all the way through.
Except that CCA is how many years after he started piloting? He's not quite as flinchy when he was just starting to learn how to use the Gundam but at least this happened years ago. You at least still get a sense that his life is in danger while going through battle.
Quote:
Thats what I said. As far as grunts are concerned, Kira needed not to spend a lot of effort dealing with them, untile named pilots showed up.
Yet my point was that this doesn't even seem to be the case in GSD. Where you have pwning multiple named pilots that are in Gundams even though at least three of these pilots should be at the same level or beyond that of the druggies he couldn't defeat.
Quote:
Blame plot holes for this one. To Kira's credit, it took him a very long time to handle the druggines in GS. Kira being overpowered in GSD is ultimately the writer's decision. We can argue our brains out, but it won't change the fact that he was made as he was in the show.
More like he never was able to actually deal with the druggies. Even when he had Athrun giving him support they still couldn't defeat the druggies with the only thing that seemed to go in their favor being that they had to go back for either refueling or more medication.
Quote:
And your dream may just come true, now with Athrun back in ORB again, the only individual with a higher rank than Shinn is Yzak
I remain skeptical on whether or not my wish comes true. But really, I think that things would have been quite interesting with Yzak and Shinn being teamed up early on in GSD instead of sticking Shinn with a nerfed Athrun.
Quote:
Neodrag: Yes, because Shinn and co destroying Destroys (supposedly gundams. No, really!) is so interesting...
I think I remember saying that him destroying so many Windams alone in itself being odd and not always interesting. But I guess I need to detail more of the obvious for you.
Quote:
How is this important? To me, a jumped-up Second Lieutenant able to alter a world-wide conflict is a far better example of being “overpowered” than one capable of defeating large numbers of foes. While the latter may bug me in an aesthetic sense, it’s the former that’s far more relevant to the topic. You can argue over the trivia of how much one pilot is overpowered than another, all you want, but I'm not really interested in that subject.
I consider it important when not only is someone given beyond that of a minor role for war but that in the battlefield they are in, we have them defeating an impractical number of foes, even simply just based on what they did in the past in terms of combat ability. So both would bother me but the latter comes to mind as the best example of how illogically overpowered an individual can be when it comes to Gundam
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Old 2006-08-30, 10:49   Link #63
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Yet my point was that this doesn't even seem to be the case in GSD. Where you have pwning multiple named pilots that are in Gundams even though at least three of these pilots should be at the same level or beyond that of the druggies he couldn't defeat.
Who and when? Remember, the druggies were presented as better than even most of Zaft's pilots. The only ones who posed any problems to them were Kira, Athrun, Yzak, and Dearka. (Well, Dearka, not so much, in fact...)


If you're talking about ep23:
- Athrun was nerfed. He was reluctant to fight at all, full of self-doubt, and didn't even go down without some time and effort.
- Shinn was still developing. He wasn't the "Supah Ace" yet.
- Heine was also busy with Stellar.
- Stellar and Auel... well, ok, they didn't shine. But they never shone in all of GSD, so I'd hardly call their level "same or beyond" that of the GS druggies.
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Old 2006-08-30, 11:00   Link #64
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Who and when? Remember, the druggies were presented as better than even most of Zaft's pilots. The only ones who posed any problems to them were Kira, Athrun, Yzak, and Dearka. (Well, Dearka, not so much, in fact...)
Was refering to Phantom Pain actually. Where not only is presented that they come from the same source of the GS druggies but that having us given that they were trained and put through a game of survival since they were children isn't really reflected at all when all three of them get defeated like a 5 year old trying to fight a professional boxer.
Quote:
If you're talking about ep23:
- Athrun was nerfed. He was reluctant to fight at all, full of self-doubt, and didn't even go down without some time and effort.
True.
Quote:
- Shinn was still developing. He wasn't the "Supah Ace" yet.
- Heine was also busy with Stellar.
- Stellar and Auel... well, ok, they didn't shine. But they never shone in all of GSD, so I'd hardly call their level "same or beyond" that of the GS druggies.
It isn't so much as Kira defeated a named pilot but defeating multiple named pilots. So you have him defeating multiple named characters with most in Gundams without showing any difficulty whatsoever in doing it.

And again like I said above, with what's the source of Phantom Pain's existence and what should have happened to them in the past, they should at least be at the same level as the GS druggies or possibly even more. They just simply were taken from being individuals that slaughter Coordinators not simply in that of MS but up close physical combat with knives, firearms, and explosives where for them it seems like it was just that easy. For three people alone to do what they've it was kind of expected in the past they would get more shine than they sadly did.
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Old 2006-08-30, 11:06   Link #65
Anh_Minh
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Several explanations:
- the first three druggies were the best MS pilots. Which leaves the second set as fourth to sixth best.
- they traded off MS skill for obedience. The second set were much more controllable than the first.
- they traded off MS skill for commando skills. We don't know if the first druggies could have pulled off a gundamjack, for example. (Probably not. Halfway there, their addiction would have caught up with them. If they didn't kill each other the moment they were left unsupervised.)
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Old 2006-08-30, 11:33   Link #66
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Several explanations:
- the first three druggies were the best MS pilots. Which leaves the second set as fourth to sixth best.
As can be speculated. But even then the guys that come in right after them in the ranking would have to put up some type of fight rather than just get taken out like 5 year olds. Since Kira still not only could not defeat the GS druggies but pretty much would have been taken out if he didn't have the help of Athrun. So couple this with Kira not only attacking Phantom Pain but also other MS that should number beyond that of a dozen or so, it still doesn't make sense for them to get pwned so easily.
Quote:
- they traded off MS skill for obedience. The second set were much more controllable than the first.
But not seemingly as less reckless. Stellar definently goes along with your more controllable explanation though. While the other two just seemed more into taking out opponents rather than talking as much, though Auel pretty much seems to be in the same in mindset as the GS druggies.
Quote:
- they traded off MS skill for commando skills. We don't know if the first druggies could have pulled off a gundamjack, for example. (Probably not. Halfway there, their addiction would have caught up with them. If they didn't kill each other the moment they were left unsupervised.)
Why exactly would you need a trade off? Can't exactly see how having commando skills would also have to mean they couldn't pilot an MS just as well. Including when they are trying to create Coordinator killers for MS combat. It's not like improving their physical capabilities should deminish their mental capabilities for combat usage. Including when the bulk of what Phantom Pain does is that of MS combat so weakening them in something they would do a vast majority of the time doesn't really seem plausible.
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Old 2006-08-30, 11:49   Link #67
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
I consider it important when not only is someone given beyond that of a minor role for war but that in the battlefield they are in, we have them defeating an impractical number of foes, even simply just based on what they did in the past in terms of combat ability. So both would bother me but the latter comes to mind as the best example of how illogically overpowered an individual can be when it comes to Gundam
I’m not really interested in your opinion on how overpowered Kira is compared to other Gundam characters. That’s why I decided to post my own take on the topic rather than addressing anyone’s arguments. My saying that “I'm going to go against the flow a little here” should have been a big hint.

As far as the relative takes on what is overpowered goes; if the ability of kill lots of foes with ease is like lifting a 100kg weight, then the ability to alter an entire war through combat skills would be like lifting several tons.
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Old 2006-08-30, 12:30   Link #68
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
But not seemingly as less reckless. Stellar definently goes along with your more controllable explanation though. While the other two just seemed more into taking out opponents rather than talking as much, though Auel pretty much seems to be in the same in mindset as the GS druggies.
They may whine a bit at orders they don't like, but they're not exactly rebellious. And they don't routinely try to kill each other.

Quote:
[/Why exactly would you need a trade off? Can't exactly see how having commando skills would also have to mean they couldn't pilot an MS just as well. Including when they are trying to create Coordinator killers for MS combat. It's not like improving their physical capabilities should deminish their mental capabilities for combat usage. Including when the bulk of what Phantom Pain does is that of MS combat so weakening them in something they would do a vast majority of the time doesn't really seem plausible.
Simple reason: one hour spent practicing hand to hand is an hour spent not practicing MS piloting.

Besides we don't know at all how they were chosen. Maybe the first druggies were chosen purely for piloting skills, while other criterions went into the selection of the second set (discipline and commando abilities come to mind.). I said "fourth to sixth best", but for all we know, it might be "tenth to twelveth".
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Old 2006-08-30, 12:54   Link #69
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I’m not really interested in your opinion on how overpowered Kira is compared to other Gundam characters. That’s why I decided to post my own take on the topic rather than addressing anyone’s arguments. My saying that “I'm going to go against the flow a little here” should have been a big hint.
And where exactly did I say that I was expecting you to do the opposite of your big hint? So just stop responding of you truly aren't interested.
Quote:
As far as the relative takes on what is overpowered goes; if the ability of kill lots of foes with ease is like lifting a 100kg weight, then the ability to alter an entire war through combat skills would be like lifting several tons.
Except that it's not always the case of altering an entire war through simply combat skills.
Quote:
They may whine a bit at orders they don't like, but they're not exactly rebellious. And they don't routinely try to kill each other.
Consider it rebellious when your pilots that are supposed to be controlled are able to run around outside to possibly mingle with the public. And I would think that Auel's usage of a certain word on Stellar wouldn't exactly be solely intended just as a show of friendship. And for guys that tried to kill each other, the GS druggies never really seemed capable of actually doing so.
Quote:
Simple reason: one hour spent practicing hand to hand is an hour spent not practicing MS piloting.
Except that every waking hour is supposed to be spent on both. And like I said, it doesn't really make sense to sacrifice so much of their MS combat skills for other skills when most of the time they are involved in piloting MS rather than hand to hand. With the logic you give, it would simply make more sense for one batch being made solely for hand to hand while the other only does MS piloting.
Quote:
Besides we don't know at all how they were chosen. Maybe the first druggies were chosen purely for piloting skills, while other criterions went into the selection of the second set (discipline and commando abilities come to mind.). I said "fourth to sixth best", but for all we know, it might be "tenth to twelveth".
But still speculation no less. Where you basically have this idea that later batch has to be inferior ignoring their skilled usage of MS that they never piloted, with killing quite alot of Coordinators with ease both in person and in MS early on in the GSD series, and it seems not allowed to indulge in other things like the earlier batch where while Phantom Pain is forced to only remember what is necessary for combat while the GS druggies at least were allowed to seemingly have a hobby.
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Old 2006-08-30, 13:01   Link #70
AlphaDragoon
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As other people in here have said, Kira really isn't any more "overpowered" than other recent Gundam main characters. Heero could blow up entire space colonies with ONE GUN, Domon fired ki blasts from a robot, Loran had UbErH4X0r3D Turn A, Shinn pwning five Destroys damn near by himself, etc.

I think that Kira's level of skill is appropriate, considering the stuff he's been through. He SHOULD be that badass, otherwise he didn't learn anything. Now what IS lacking is skill from the people he's fighting...namely, 50 bijillion untrained grunts and people like Shinn, Rey and Athrun suddenly being nerfed (although Kira himself was nerfed when Shinn beat him).

If they'd just make the grunts actually competant (and stop magi-nerfing characters at key points because fights would take too long if both guys were fighting like they do against grunts...) then I don't think Kira would seem half as cheap as he does. He'd just be a great pilot, which is what I think was the original goal (that fell short) of making him that good.

Case in point: when Kira gets SF and he's fighting those GOUFs. If they had grunts that fought at like, a level above those guys (who were actually able to grab Kira with the heat rods forcing him to use the DRAGOONs) , it'd probably work.
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Old 2006-08-30, 13:10   Link #71
SNT1
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Quote:
As other people in here have said, Kira really isn't any more "overpowered" than other recent Gundam main characters. Heero could blow up entire space colonies with ONE GUN, Domon fired ki blasts from a robot, Loran had UbErH4X0r3D Turn A, Shinn pwning five Destroys damn near by himself, etc.
Domon can't be overpowered, he still busted his butt to get past Schwarz, Asia and the Devil Gundam.

Heero seems overpowered, but not quite when he goes against his equals, aka Epyon/Nataku

Loran seems overpowered, but he had to fight Turn X, which is more/less an equal

Shinn can't be overpowered, he is in the same show as Kira -.-

Kira IS overpowered, because, all of the above pilots were at equal footing when they fought, while Kira's rival in the end of GSD (Rey) been magic-word+spamraped. cant say the same for GS kira though.
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Old 2006-08-30, 13:12   Link #72
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNT1
Domon can't be overpowered, he still busted his butt to get past Schwarz, Asia and the Devil Gundam.

Heero seems overpowered, but not quite when he goes against his equals, aka Epyon/Nataku

Loran seems overpowered, but he had to fight Turn X, which is more/less an equal

Shinn can't be overpowered, he is in the same show as Kira -.-

Kira IS overpowered, because, all of the above pilots were at equal footing when they fought, while Kira's rival in the end of GSD (Rey) been magic-word+spamraped. cant say the same for GS kira though.
True.
True.
True.
True.
And most definently true.
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Old 2006-08-30, 13:22   Link #73
AlphaDragoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNT1
Kira IS overpowered, because, all of the above pilots were at equal footing when they fought, while Kira's rival in the end of GSD (Rey) been magic-word+spamraped. cant say the same for GS kira though.
Yeah, but I don't really consider that Kira's fault...like I said, that was crappy writing/nerfing to fit the battle into one episode, much like a lot of GSD's battles.

Unless you think Kira has the Mangekyou Sharingan or something and he brain-raped Rey so he could GGPO RAINBOW GUN him...seriously, that would've NEVER worked if not for the fact that they wanted to get that battle out of the way.
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Old 2006-08-30, 13:47   Link #74
Skyfall
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He did mindrape Rey, but that wouldnt change the outcame in any way if he didnt. Legend had like 3 DRAGOONs left at that time, and it doesnt present much of a threat.

TBH i think its the oponents that make Kira look as overpowered as he is - there is only one pilot left alive that can beat him, and the said pilot is his best buddy and doesnt want to fight him, and the ones that actually have to fight him are simply not as good as he is.

tho I still think he should have become at least a bit rusty during the 2 years, but damn - he actually seems better than before

That said Shinn+Rey would have trashed kira in ORB battle if Athrun hadnt arrived at the last second (felt like watching first battle of ORB - Kira is getting his arse kicked and Athrun to the rescue )
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Old 2006-08-30, 13:56   Link #75
grandmaster192
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Originally Posted by Skyfall

TBH i think its the oponents that make Kira look as overpowered as he is - there is only one pilot left alive that can beat him, and the said pilot is his best buddy and doesnt want to fight him
If your talking about Shinn(Final plus) then I agree. But if your talking about Athrun then no. I never seen Kira make Shinn look like shit. Shinn was always has been able to match Kira. The only thing is Shinn is a bad guy and must lose at all cost so he gets his ass kicked.
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Old 2006-08-30, 14:04   Link #76
Last_Hope
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My oh my. What did I start.

@ Tak.

I haven´t seen all of UC yet so I don´t know if they do the same stunt as Kira when he saved Cagalli buuut. I´d say that Amuro in the end of CCA vs the big-ass rock is a step further...

And people complain about Kira´s skills in Destiny when it´s gone two years since he piloted his Gundam. Then what about Amuro in Zeta? You know, discovering the world of UC just shows that SEED and Destiny is staying true to the path Gundam always takes. It´s just that Gundam-fans is like soccer-fans. Or sport-fans in general. Change is evil! (And I know cause I´m a supporter of AIK. We´re fighting change over here too... ) Compared to other Gundam shows Destiny really isn´t that bad. I personally don´t think there´s much more room for Gundam to expand on concerning new shows. Unless they want to break new ground and use a woman or an adult as the hero. Someone who isn´t going to be crying and wavering almost constantly.

Discussing Gundam with most people is basically getting the same reply over and over again... "It used to be better." Aaah, nostalgia is a powerful source of grumpiness.

@Skyfall
But you know Kira was kickings Shinn´s ass in the fight until Rey came and saved his cute little ass.
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Last edited by Last_Hope; 2006-08-30 at 14:16.
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Old 2006-08-30, 14:27   Link #77
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last_Hope@[B
Skyfall[/B]
But you know Kira was kickings Shinn´s ass in the fight until Rey came and saved his cute little ass.
OFC i know that - did i ever say that Kira cant win them 1 on 1 ? Quite the opposite
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Old 2006-08-30, 14:33   Link #78
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon
As other people in here have said, Kira really isn't any more "overpowered" than other recent Gundam main characters. Heero could blow up entire space colonies with ONE GUN, Domon fired ki blasts from a robot, Loran had UbErH4X0r3D Turn A, Shinn pwning five Destroys damn near by himself, etc.
Um no actually I believe that was Quattro who blew up the colonies when he lost his sanity.
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Old 2006-08-30, 14:48   Link #79
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
And where exactly did I say that I was expecting you to do the opposite of your big hint? So just stop responding of you truly aren't interested.
If you paid attention, I haven’t broached the subject of how much any individual character is overpowered. You’re the one who seems to be trying to insert that into all of your arguments, whether or not it’s a relevant point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Except that it's not always the case of altering an entire war through simply combat skills
Sure it is. They’re hardly doing it with their sparkling good looks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Hope
Discussing Gundam with most people is basically getting the same reply over and over again... "It used to be better." Aaah, nostalgia is a powerful source of grumpiness.
I think that if we manage to harness the power of nostalgia, we may be able to free ourselves from our dependence of fossil fuels
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Old 2006-08-30, 14:50   Link #80
AlphaDragoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
I never seen Kira make Shinn look like shit. Shinn was always has been able to match Kira..
*cough*ep. 42 blade grasp+railgun that would've killed Shinn had Kira chosen to use the Callidus*cough*

As it stands...there's really nobody who can hang with Kira, at least that we have seen. Call it Kira being "overpowered" if you like, call it nerfing on the other characters' part perhaps, but no matter what the statement stands.

Never read the Astray manga, anyone think Canard could at least give him a run for his money if the Gundams they fought in were even in power? Unless the SEED movie shows some UBER mofo like Char who never got beaten EVER, then Canard's probably the last hope for a villain that can match Kira, since Rau is you know...dead and all. If not...then Kira's just the best guy in CE.
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