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Old 2006-09-01, 11:56   Link #21
Eclipze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
It is only logical for the Captains to select their vice captains (either forcefully or by being the final decision maker). I think the only position that the higher-ups would want to interfere is the captain position due to specific requirements for that position (such as winning against a captain and/or obtaining bankai).
So, the better question would be:

Is there any form of standard that the captains must follow when deciding on VC or other ranks? (like the ones you mentioned about defeating a captain/having bankai for deciding on Captain).

What I am asking for is any actual mention about this issue in the manga (or anime if I've missed out on that).
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Old 2006-09-01, 12:13   Link #22
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipze
So, the better question would be:

Is there any form of standard that the captains must follow when deciding on VC or other ranks? (like the ones you mentioned about defeating a captain/having bankai for deciding on Captain).

What I am asking for is any actual mention about this issue in the manga (or anime if I've missed out on that).
I don't think there is any and I don't remember any mention of that. Maybe I missed it.

As I have implied before, captains position is special, but that is not the case for vice-captains position. So, I don't think it is a position that is worth the additional effort of interfering from the higher-ups. What we have seen till now is some vice-captains having some kind of (for instance, emotional) attachment to the captains in a mutual way, such as the cases of Kenpachi (fatherly), Shunsui (love), Mayuri (godly/research). Maybe these are just exceptions, but they give an idea of how the selection process can work.
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Old 2006-09-01, 12:20   Link #23
hdx514
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VC = second seat. and it is general concensus that they're the second strongest members of their division - that's why they, along with their captains are the only ones with the spiritual limit when they enter the human world. Captains do have strong influences, but they still pick the powerful ones, which is why top talents like renji and kira gets transferred around

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I don't think there is any and I don't remember any mention of that. Maybe I missed it.

As I have implied before, captains position is special, but that is not the case for vice-captains position. So, I don't think it is a position that is worth the additional effort of interfering from the higher-ups. What we have seen till now is some vice-captains having some kind of (for instance, emotional) attachment to the captains in a mutual way, such as the cases of Kenpachi (fatherly), Shunsui (love), Mayuri (godly/research). Maybe these are just exceptions, but they give an idea of how the selection process can work.
the limiting seal on the lieutenants would seem pretty stupid if that's the general practice now wouldn't it? do you want databook proof?
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Old 2006-09-01, 12:37   Link #24
Sazelyt
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If Ikkaku, Rukia, the other one from Kenpachi's division do not have any limiting seal, then that rule is a bit stupid as you said so - just a formality.

So, vice captain is expected to be strong (and it is usually the case the strong befriend the strong not the weak, since they might need to rely on each other), but they don't have to be the strongest among the rest. And I don't think Ikkaku or the others cases represent a special case. In other words, if the vice-captain does not represent the second strongest one among all the remaining people on that division, then it becomes a division based decision rather than a higher-up related decision. That also refers to a more personal kind of decision, compared to the selection process used for the captain seat.
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Old 2006-09-01, 12:56   Link #25
hdx514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
If Ikkaku, Rukia, the other one from Kenpachi's division do not have any limiting seal, then that rule is a bit stupid as you said so - just a formality.

So, vice captain is expected to be strong (and it is usually the case the strong befriend the strong not the weak, since they might need to rely on each other), but they don't have to be the strongest among the rest. And I don't think Ikkaku or the others cases represent a special case. In other words, if the vice-captain does not represent the second strongest one among all the remaining people on that division, then it becomes a division based decision rather than a higher-up related decision. That also refers to a more personal kind of decision, compared to the selection process used for the captain seat.
both ikkaku and yumichika deliberately hid their powers for personal reasons, and you say that's a common practice? (and btw, rukia is WEAK, remember the time she nearly pissed herself at the mere sight of a gillian?). it has already been explained that the seal is there for a practical purpose: not to cause unecessary disturbance in the human world, and you call it just a formality?

there's proof of this common practice in S.S., and you just call what's clear the manga a stupid act because you don't like the fact that VCs are IN GENERAL the second strongest in their divisions? are you also gonna overthrow the whole seat ranking, cause you know, VC is actually second seat? what's the point of arguing if you're gonna call the manga itself stupid/wrong? let's see, okay, since urahara and ichigo mastered bankai in a very short time, bankai can, in general, be mastered in a very short time. but byakuya said otherwise! -well, he's wrong. but people with bankai are regarded highly in S.S. - well, S.S. is stupid...
is there an end to this?

here you go, this ought to solve your problems:
尸魂界の護衛及び現世における魂魄の保護、虚の退治等の任務をこなす実動部隊。十三の部隊で構成され、一隊 二百人強、総勢三千人程度がその任に就いている。全権を握るのは一番隊隊長・山本元柳斎重國。任務内容ゆえ、部隊内階級は完全に戦闘能力のみで決められており、上位席官ほど単純に強い。特に副官及び隊 長はその中でも飛び抜けた強さの者が選ばれる。隊長職は、加えて何らかの職務を兼任することが多い。二番隊隊長砕蜂は隠密機動総括軍団長、十二番隊隊長涅 マユリは二代目技術開発局局長を兼任。元十二番隊隊長浦原喜助も技術開発局初代局長を勤めていた。各隊とも 主義、気風が多分に異なっており、それらは全て各隊隊長の考え方による。各隊の特色があり、四番隊=医療・ 補給・雑用等専門、十一番隊=戦闘部隊、などがある。

rank is proportional to combat power, that's a fact, with a few exceptions of course

Last edited by hdx514; 2006-09-01 at 13:12.
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Old 2006-09-01, 13:29   Link #26
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
both ikkaku and yumichika deliberately hid their powers for personal reasons, and you say that's a common practice? (and btw, rukia is WEAK, remember the time she nearly pissed herself at the mere sight of a gillian?). it has already been explained that the seal is there for a practical purpose: not to cause unecessary disturbance in the human world, and you call it just a formality?
Why not? And if that rule does not include all the strong ones, then it becomes a formality, no matter how you try to change the wording.

Quote:
there's proof of this common practice in S.S., and you just call what's clear the manga a stupid act because you don't like the fact that VCs are IN GENERAL the second strongest in their divisions? are you also gonna overthrow the whole seat ranking, cause you know, VC is actually second seat? what's the point of arguing if you're gonna call the manga itself stupid/wrong? let's see, okay, since urahara and ichigo mastered bankai in a very short time, bankai can, in general, be mastered in a very short time. but byakuya said otherwise! -well, he's wrong. but people with bankai are regarded highly in S.S. - well, S.S. is stupid...
is there an end to this?

here you go, this ought to solve your problems:
尸魂界の護衛及び現世における魂魄の保護、虚の退治等の任務をこなす実動部隊。十三の部隊で構成され、一隊 二百人強、総勢三千人程度がその任に就いている。全権を握るのは一番隊隊長・山本元柳斎重國。任務内容ゆえ、部隊内階級は完全に戦闘能力のみで決められており、上位席官ほど単純に強い。特に副官及び隊 長はその中でも飛び抜けた強さの者が選ばれる。隊長職は、加えて何らかの職務を兼任することが多い。二番隊隊長砕蜂は隠密機動総括軍団長、十二番隊隊長涅 マユリは二代目技術開発局局長を兼任。元十二番隊隊長浦原喜助も技術開発局初代局長を勤めていた。各隊とも 主義、気風が多分に異なっており、それらは全て各隊隊長の考え方による。各隊の特色があり、四番隊=医療・ 補給・雑用等専門、十一番隊=戦闘部隊、などがある。

rank is proportional to combat power, that's a fact, with a few exceptions of course
I just quoted the word you used. If you do not wish others to use it, then please refrain to do so. You also missed that I also said captains seat is a special seat. Comparing vice-captain to a captain is comparing the power of a person that can achieve bankai to another person that cannot.

Also, this is an English forum, if you wish others to understand what you are meaning to say, then it is better to include a translation to what you are quoting in other language.

And lastly, if there are more than a few exceptions to the ranking system, then that means it is not a clear-cut system as you see or want others to see.
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Old 2006-09-01, 13:48   Link #27
hdx514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Also, this is an English forum, if you wish others to understand what you are meaning to say, then it is better to include a translation to what you are quoting in other language.
i've already provided you with the translation, that rank within a division is purely based on combat powers alone. i can even point you to the relevant page in the databook, but then again you'll probably say it's japanese (bleach IS japanese manga you know, what meaning does zanpakutou or a billion other things in bleach hold in English anyway?) while i provide proof, you simply go "i think" and "why not". if you're so bigoted to dismiss official statement, there's obviously no point of me continuing any further. sorry for "wanting you to see" the official opinion~

Quote:
And lastly, if there are more than a few exceptions to the ranking system, then that means it is not a clear-cut system as you see or want others to see.
and tell me, WHERE ARE THE FEW EXCEPTIONS THAT you speak of? I mean, a lieutenant who is known to be weaker than a 3rd seat or below within the same division? cause this is the key here - if yachiru is stronger than ikkaku, the third seat in the same division 11
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Old 2006-09-01, 14:04   Link #28
Sazelyt
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If you are writing what you are meaning to say, then what does that mean "rank is proportional to combat power, that's a fact, with a few exceptions of course ". If you are admitting exceptions, do you need any verifications from others? Exceptions might easily refer to captains decisions regarding whom to select as the vice captain. If you do not wish to accept that observation, then it is better to not do what you do not like to do "not involve in discussion in a forum where most of the views involve opinions".

Also, after what happened in the recent chapters, I "think" Ikkaku is stronger than Yashiru. And I "think" that is the case even before his power up. You want proof of that, and I can ensure you, you will never get, unless you see those two fighting.
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Old 2006-09-01, 14:17   Link #29
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
(and btw, rukia is WEAK, remember the time she nearly pissed herself at the mere sight of a gillian?).
I'm not sure that is good evedence that she is weak. What we know for sure is that she was on her first solo mission to earth when she met Ichigo and then lost all her powers and was kept from rechargeing for over a month, durring that time she ran in to the Gillian, which they normaly send whole squads after, with a untrained human and a quincy as the attack force.We also know that she is likely near VC level since she was able to fight and kill her own hollow controled VC after her captian colapsed durring the fight some time before being sent to Earth. Since the SS arc she has regained her powers and has shown that she is likely a seated member of the squad, if not the VC.
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Old 2006-09-01, 14:23   Link #30
hdx514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
If you are writing what you are meaning to say, then what does that mean "rank is proportional to combat power, that's a fact, with a few exceptions of course ". If you are admitting exceptions, do you need any verifications from others? Exceptions might easily refer to captains decisions regarding whom to select as the vice captain. If you do not wish to accept that observation, then it is better to not do what you do not like to do "not involve in discussion in a forum where most of the views involve opinions".

Also, after what happened in the recent chapters, I "think" Ikkaku is stronger than Yashiru. And I "think" that is the case even before his power up. You want proof of that, and I can ensure you, you will never get, unless you see those two fighting.
1. VC is generally the second strongest shinigami in the division - the databook says it, which means kubo says it, so it's is NOT an opinion. the "based on decision/does not represent power etc. etc." stuff is all BS.

2. the exception i'm talking about was the narcissist yumichika, he took 5th seat because he thinks the number 4 does not match his "beauty". it is a. bloody rare and b. got nothing to do with any VCs being weaker than seated officers. since we're talking about yachiru's powers as a VC here and since i am in support of “ranking proportional to power“rule while you are against it believing a VC is weaker than a her 3rd seat, i should be asking you to provide me evidence of this kind of exception, but you clearly cannot.

3. With what happened in the recent chapters there's evidence that ikkaku is not as strong as yachiru, the evidence being yumichika calling him "the second strongest MAN" in division 11 and not simply "second strongest". your on the other hand probably thinks ikkaku is stronger because a. he is damn strong and b. yachiru is damn young. and While i can provide you many examples of a "damn young" character in bleach being more powerful than the "damn strong" ikkaku, you can't provide example of a seated officer being stronger than his/her VC.

4. we don't have to see yachiru fight ikkaku to tell who's stronger. this is not an opinion either.
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Old 2006-09-01, 14:35   Link #31
Sazelyt
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Ikkaku is "at Captain level" and, imo, "stronger" than Yachiru (if you go by the wording, the second strongest MAN does mean directly neither the third strongest in the division nor the second strongest in the division - it means use your observation to decide on one). For me this is BS meeting with reality (again if you do not like the wording, choose a better one next time yourself)...
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Old 2006-09-01, 14:50   Link #32
hdx514
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it's not BS, it IS possible that yachiru is weak, i have no problem with that, as i said before we really need to see her in action once before any definite conclusions can be made. that said, i do have a problem with people saying that her powers are irrelevant cause kenpachi MUST have made her VC or VCs are in general selected by captains according to personal preference not power - because these are simply WRONG.
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Old 2006-09-02, 01:17   Link #33
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamato_D
umm... i was just wondering, hitsugaya is considered a genius right (because of his young age and rank of captain). but yachiru (pink haired 11th division vice-captain) seems even younger looking than him, and she has a pretty significant rank. so would she be considered a genius too, or is her age just exagerated?
While Yachiru seems to be pretty strong I'm not quite sure we can call her a genius, as she seems to have pretty low levels of skill. Of course this may be because she never went to the acadamy so like Kenpachi is self schooled.
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Old 2006-09-02, 02:19   Link #34
fremeer
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the problem is that we dont know how ages works in soul society. Look at rukia, she is older than ichigo by alot of years. That means yachiru could be like 50 in human years.
Vice captains are chosen by the captains and the captains are chosen by the upper tier. What would happen if u had 13 captains and a vice captain reached bankai? would u make an extra division?
Anyways vice captains are generally chosen out of ppl that have achieved shikai. If u got shikai u are a candidate. Most captains would choose the strongest but vice captain is more of a functionary then anything. They are there to do the stuff too lowly for the captains. 11th division is slightly different because as we can see most of 11th are very weak cept for the captain to 4th seat, maybe 5th. ikkaku is most likely stronger than yachiru but because he doesnt really care for the title he just stays as third. Vice captains arent even that important as fighters anyway. In a ranking system a captain is 100, VC is 10 and all the others go down from there.. And thats being kind. Rukia is also weak compared to captain level but probably strong compared to other seated officers. Im guessing vice captain level at least.
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Old 2006-09-02, 04:05   Link #35
hdx514
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Quote:
the problem is that we dont know how ages works in soul society. Look at rukia, she is older than ichigo by alot of years. That means yachiru could be like 50 in human years.
Vice captains are chosen by the captains and the captains are chosen by the upper tier. What would happen if u had 13 captains and a vice captain reached bankai? would u make an extra division?
Anyways vice captains are generally chosen out of ppl that have achieved shikai. If u got shikai u are a candidate. Most captains would choose the strongest but vice captain is more of a functionary then anything. They are there to do the stuff too lowly for the captains. 11th division is slightly different because as we can see most of 11th are very weak cept for the captain to 4th seat, maybe 5th. ikkaku is most likely stronger than yachiru but because he doesnt really care for the title he just stays as third. Vice captains arent even that important as fighters anyway. In a ranking system a captain is 100, VC is 10 and all the others go down from there.. And thats being kind. Rukia is also weak compared to captain level but probably strong compared to other seated officers. Im guessing vice captain level at least.
one thing is for sure: yachiru is definitely grandma by human standard. therefore, genius or not by shinigami standard she is definitely a retard compared to ichigo&co.

and rukia, well, being part of the main cast, she is more like a BUG. her abilities have not been consistent in the manga, and there's no way someone like her could recover and improve in such a short time, she wasn't even top talent back at the academy. and in reality, if you're not at least near captain level or have cheats enabled like orihime, then you have no significance in the hollow arc, not like rukia or yachiru or lots of other VCs have ever been of any use. only the powerful ones matter in bleach. yamamoto could probably easily take on ALL shinigamis below a 3rd seat at once and finish them all.
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Old 2006-09-02, 04:50   Link #36
kagato3
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I belive all seated officers have achieved shikai, even Hanatarou who is the 7th seat has one


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
one thing is for sure: yachiru is definitely grandma by human standard. therefore, genius or not by shinigami standard she is definitely a retard compared to ichigo&co.

and rukia, well, being part of the main cast, she is more like a BUG. her abilities have not been consistent in the manga, and there's no way someone like her could recover and improve in such a short time, she wasn't even top talent back at the academy. and in reality, if you're not at least near captain level or have cheats enabled like orihime, then you have no significance in the hollow arc, not like rukia or yachiru or lots of other VCs have ever been of any use. only the powerful ones matter in bleach. yamamoto could probably easily take on ALL shinigamis below a 3rd seat at once and finish them all.
I think you are not giveing enuff credit to Rukia's abilities. Sure she didn't get into the gifted classes like Renji but it's not like she was out of his league, in fact I would say she was likely just as skilled going in to the acadamy as he was, and perhaps was even more skilled then he was. Once she joins the 13th we find out that she did not come in at a seated officer and feels she has desapointed her brother, even though we later find out this is in part caused by byakuya's medeling. Given her pesonality I would find it hard to belive she did not train to the point that it was imposable not to make her a seated officer. We know her Capt and VC see her as being skilled enuff to be taken as back up when going after a hollow that wiped out group of shinigami and is even able to hold her own and kill her VC once he was overcome by the hollow after her Capt was out of the fight. I would not be suprized if the reason the 13th does not have a VC is the the place is being held for Rukia

Her poor performce at the start of the manga and anime can be chalked up to the following things: It was her first solo mission to Earth, before she had always been fighting as part of a team. She was haveing a hard time scenceing the hollow because of Ichigo's uncontrolled sprit energy. She was being distracted by Ichigo himself durring the fight.

Last edited by kagato3; 2006-09-02 at 05:27.
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Old 2006-09-02, 07:50   Link #37
hdx514
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Quote:
Her poor performce at the start of the manga and anime can be chalked up to the following things: It was her first solo mission to Earth, before she had always been fighting as part of a team. She was haveing a hard time scenceing the hollow because of Ichigo's uncontrolled sprit energy. She was being distracted by Ichigo himself durring the fight.
it's all off-topic so i'll hide.
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-09-02, 15:40   Link #38
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
it's all off-topic so i'll hide.
let's just look at the facts okay?
FACT 1: rukia's excues applied to ichigo: it was his first MINUTE as a shinigami, he hasn't learned ANYTHING, his whole family was littered around to distract him, yet, he finished that hollow in no time. so much for rukia trying to pass off as a rookie.
It's not quite the same thing as Rukia had Ichigo yelling at her durring the fight to distract her, where as all of Ichigo's family was knocked out and as not so much a distraction but as something for him to use to focus on defeating the hollow.

Quote:
FACT 2: 20% renji > FACT 1 ichigo
FACT 3: rukia was in second division at the academy
FACT 4: rukia deserves a seat, momo kira and renji are all VCs
FACT 5: No. 1,2,4 VCs together got pawned by no-kai ichigo. needless to say, third seats are USUALLY useless. any group of regular shinigami IS useless.
And these facts prove Rukia is weak, how? And if I remember correctly Renji was starting to lose when Byakuya steped in to break Ichigo's sword. As for your fact five other then haveing no relevence may I also point out that at the time Ichigo had been shown to be at capt level and had ubtained his Bankai at this point and even if he was not useing it, it is said that you gain a small boost in your powers.

Quote:
FACT 6: she ranked bottom 10% in the school exams, despite living 10x times longer than any student
So she doesn't test well, that still shows no information on her current power level, also it was never stated that she is 10x older then any of the other students in the acadamy, and in fact it look like she and renji are ageing at the same rate, only that she is 10x older then Ichigo
Quote:
FACT 7: she cried at the sight of a gillian saying it's beyond shinigami and only royal guards could handle them
First she did not cry at the sight of the menos, what she said was that they were under the justion of the royal guards and that there was no way a lone shinigami could defeat one. She also had never seen one in person and was no where near full power at the time.

Quote:
FACT 8: the hollow which destroyed kaien couple was an early aizen experiment, and as he admitted, they were weak. kaien and her wife were crap.
Aizen only said the experiments did not work not that they were weak. And Kaien and his wife were crap is a fact? I'm pretty sure we would need to see more then 1 fight from only one of them to say if that was true.

Quote:
FACT 9: rukia did not defeat her VC. kaien's mind took over briefly and killed himself.
Even if it wasn't Kaien's mind it was still a hollow that was able to beat a VC and go toe to toe with a captian still implies she is strong, add to that if Rukia was holding back because she didn't want to kill him
Quote:
Spoiler:
Again how is this proveing that she is weak?
Quote:

-EVEN IF chapter 1 rukia was 2x as strong as initial ichigo, she was still much weaker than no bankai enji. any one much weaker than no bankai renji is, well, weak.
-FACT 10 contradicts the power she demonstrated previously - it's theoretically impossible for someone who could finish a powered up gillian with one blow to be disabled by a no name hollow however careless, just as it's impossible for a regular hollow to finish a careless adjuchas, let alone saying those BS stuff.
Lets look at the first fight:
Fact 1: This was Rukia's first solo mission (manga 0a)
Fact 2: She was haveing a hard time finding the hollow because of the Spirtitual force pouring out of Ichigo had confused her senses (manga chp1)
Fact 3: She had no problem cutting halfway through it's arm to free Yuzu (manga chp1)
Fact 4: Rukia was winning untill Ichigo started bugging her durring the fight drawing her atention away from the hollow. (manga chp1)
Fact 5: she wouldn't have even have been wounded if she hadn't thrown herself in front of Ichigo to save him when he was going to give him self to the hollow in the mistaken belief that it would then go away. (manga chp1)
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Old 2006-09-02, 17:06   Link #39
hdx514
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renji, kira and momo were all top division members, rukia was second, direct comparison right there, she's weaker than them all. if you aint at least near captain level you ain't worth shit in the coming war, that's it, period, no more OT stuff from me.
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Old 2006-09-02, 20:28   Link #40
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is Yachiru a genius? well, she could fingerpaint with blood before she could walk

her seat in her division doesn't say much to as since it was granted to her by Kenpachi, as he was granted the Capitan seat on other terms than anyone else too
the fact that how strong she is wouldn't change her possition, but this won't change her strenght neighter :P
the fact that she has to be Kenpachi's VC was mention when Ikkaku was about to fight Iba, Iba left 11th division to become VC cause no matter how strong he would become he would never be Zaraki's VC

Capitan level recently become something more irrelevant since we have enemies boyond that and can't just make insane powerups for everybody or change good guy's crew, so like before (since story is well build) what matters is the skill not the strenght itself
Zaraki lost to Ichigo but won against Tousen
Yumichaka told that Ikkaku is the strongest men under Zaraki so he probably mean that Yachiru is stronger, and if Ikkaku is on Capitan level that won't make Yachiru above Capitan level, but just faster or with better special skill in shikai
but in Bleach we don't know who is exactly stronger untill they fight against each other with 100% cause for example Kira that doubles weight of everything his Wabisuke cuts can outmatch many enemies (if he would trully didn't tell anybody about his zanpakotu's ability, but since we're in "filler" and it's japanese story everytime he uses his ability on somebody new he has to say what does it do, or else the enemy wouldn't be able to think of contratact plan )

Kira even mention that if he would graduate from academy at first try he would be bigger genius than Shuhei, and fact him being coward wouldn't change a thing

between Rukia and Renji grew up over 60 past, and there is less than 100 years for both Yachiru and Hitsugaya to grow after them entering academy, but neighter of those two grew up to be a teenage, even when they posses bigger strenght

many arque that Ikkaku isn't strong enough (like Rukia) to be called capitan level, even with recent news, so why shouldn't they say that Yachiru isn't stronger than Hitsugaya or bigger genius?

and Ichigo manage to get bankai in 2,5 day of training at it after 1 month of being shinigami, when even Hitsugaya probably took years, and Ichigo has 23rd place in grades in school, but still he's rather to be consider blockhead strong hero type so why someone should consider Yachiru a genius when all she do is having fun

and Kaien weren't crap, he would rip bere handed that hollow if it didn't come inside him, and I would like to mention that it was the strongest thing that Aizen probably made before deciding to swith to making Arrancars with Hyoukou(sp),
and we've seen huuuuge hollows before this one
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