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Old 2006-09-04, 10:50   Link #61
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
yes that seems true it seems like Strike Freedom and ∞ Justice have no power issues while Destiny runs out of power if Wings of Light are often used I think Strike Freedom and ∞ Justice reactor's are based on their former suits while Destiny and Legend are based on a completely different thing
Well, if you think about it, all the SF and IJ weapons were based on improvements of existing proven technology. They are not so much prototypes (as they weren't testbeds for anything; Lacus wasn't planning to build an army of them.) as really expensive deluxe weapons for VIP Aces.

Destiny's WOL, however, appear to be cutting edge. So cutting edge, that it is apparently barely supported by the Destiny Gundam's hardware.

It's generally considered that, if there was any difference in power-plant design in Destiny, it was to accommodate the energy demands of WOL. One has to point out the Legend never once had energy supply issues, which may be attributed to Dragoons been perfected and no where near as experimental as it once was.

One might wonder how it is possible to have WOL being so draining as to make Destiny needing a backup battery like the modern-day Hybrid vehicles. But we need to remember that a nuclear power-plant is not a nuclear bomb; it might be able to operate for long periods without refueling, but there is actually a maximum limit in how much power it can produce at a time. Things like the maximum operational temperature of the reactor components means you can't overclock the output.

WOL is probably still too far ahead of the technological advancement curve.
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Old 2006-09-04, 11:12   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
WOL is probably still too far ahead of the technological advancement curve.
Kinda off-topic, but...about WoL:
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-09-04, 11:16   Link #63
zgmf-x19a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Well, if you think about it, all the SF and IJ weapons were based on improvements of existing proven technology. They are not so much prototypes (as they weren't testbeds for anything; Lacus wasn't planning to build an army of them.) as really expensive deluxe weapons for VIP Aces.

Destiny's WOL, however, appear to be cutting edge. So cutting edge, that it is apparently barely supported by the Destiny Gundam's hardware.

It's generally considered that, if there was any difference in power-plant design in Destiny, it was to accommodate the energy demands of WOL. One has to point out the Legend never once had energy supply issues, which may be attributed to Dragoons been perfected and no where near as experimental as it once was.

One might wonder how it is possible to have WOL being so draining as to make Destiny needing a backup battery like the modern-day Hybrid vehicles. But we need to remember that a nuclear power-plant is not a nuclear bomb; it might be able to operate for long periods without refueling, but there is actually a maximum limit in how much power it can produce at a time. Things like the maximum operational temperature of the reactor components means you can't overclock the output.

WOL is probably still too far ahead of the technological advancement curve.

If the WOL were so demanding energy wise then why keep it?
It only makes the Destiny look cooler and does it leave a sort of afterimage?
Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice couldn't be mass produced because I don't think they could be easily piloted even by FAITH members and it would cost too much.Mass produced mobile suits are designed for the "average pilot".
It reminds me of a question that I've always had : who was supposed to pilot Freedom if it wasn't stolen by Kira Yamato?
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Old 2006-09-04, 11:33   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipze
Kinda off-topic, but...about WoL:
Spoiler:
By that time, UC mobile suits used nuclear fusion engines. Fusion produces more energy than fission.
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Old 2006-09-04, 11:45   Link #65
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Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
If the WOL were so demanding energy wise then why keep it?
Because it's always nice to have a trump card or some superiority guarantee when going on the battlefield. Maybe they thought they could use it without problem or they could fix it in the long term through trial and error. That's why military prototypes sometimes take a few years in real life to be tested before being fielded and issued to regular forces.

Quote:
It only makes the Destiny look cooler and does it leave a sort of afterimage?
It is likely that this is due to the Mirage Colloid spread inside the WoL - no one is sure the WoLs (without MC) can achieve the same effect.
...And I guess they wanted to implement F91's afterimage thingy into the show, with V2's 'wings of light' to have even cooler effects.

Quote:
Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice couldn't be mass produced because I don't think they could be easily piloted even by FAITH members and it would cost too much.Mass produced mobile suits are designed for the "average pilot".
Not to mention that they require top-notch technology, which is hard and lengthy to produce. When the third Reich fielded its sophisticated Tiger II tank it was already too late and the state was running out of materials, making the huge progress and effectiveness improvement the German engineers had made go through the window. The U.S. belched I don't know how many M4 Shermans with great ease from their factories, not only because they had the means to do so but because they were easier to build than a Tiger II.

Quote:
It reminds me of a question that I've always had : who was supposed to pilot Freedom if it wasn't stolen by Kira Yamato?
Another mystery that won't be officially answered...and it's not like some Bandai/Sunrise higher-up like Morita would bother to issue an answer now that Freedom is trashed and definitely shadowed by SF.

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Originally Posted by Archer
By that time, UC mobile suits used nuclear fusion engines. Fusion produces more energy than fission.
The only mention of fusion that, to the best of my knowledge, was ever made in CE for MSes, is about SF's 'laser-ignited fusion reactor'...note that 'reactor' here is most likely referring to the word 'thruster'...since Archangel had thrusters bearing the same name.
And as you can see, it's got nothing to do with nuclear fusion. -_-;;
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Old 2006-09-04, 11:47   Link #66
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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If the WOL were so demanding energy wise then why keep it?
Well, supposedly it offered unparalleled acceleration for Destiny Gundam.
ZAFT engineers probably don't intent Shinn to use WoL for any longer than short bursts at a time.

Remember, the standard equipment for the original Freedom and Justice were also too power intensive for battery-powered suits, and the original early prototype had to be hooked up to a powercable when it was forced to be used in combat.

Quote:
Kinda off-topic, but...about WoL:
The WoL-using mobilesuit in the UC universe was nearly 70 years more advanced than the original RX-78-2. Further, it is similar to Destiny's equipment only in name; the UC version is a powerful particle generator that has massive offensive and defensive functions, beside offering great acceleration to the MS.

Comparisons of nuclear generator output between UC and CE is futile; CE uses nuclear fission, but all mobile suits in UC (even the lowly Zaku II) runs on fusion.
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Old 2006-09-04, 12:08   Link #67
zgmf-x19a
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Well, supposedly it offered unparalleled acceleration for Destiny Gundam.
ZAFT engineers probably don't intent Shinn to use WoL for any longer than short bursts at a time.

Remember, the standard equipment for the original Freedom and Justice were also too power intensive for battery-powered suits, and the original early prototype had to be hooked up to a powercable when it was forced to be used in combat.

hence them equipping it with Neutron Jammer Cancelers
It would be understandable for Freedom since it relies mainly on its long range weaponry but Justice doesn't seem that powerful though
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Old 2006-09-04, 12:10   Link #68
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Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
hence them equipping it with Neutron Jammer Cancelers
It would be understandable for Freedom since it relies mainly on its long range weaponry but Justice doesn't seem that powerful though
Freedom and Justice were meant to fight in tandem (one long-range interceptor/superiority fighter and a close range dogfighter), so it's normal to outfit Justice with Freedom's reactor (so that the two can last as long as each other) - not to mention that a nuclear-powered MS is needed to power up the second METEOR.

I guess that it might also be one reason why SF and IJ's reactors were maybe superior or had a higher output than Destiny and Legend - they were meant to use those artillery monsters for hours. Destiny and Legend couldn't dock with them (due to their backpacks) so it was unnecessary to boost those reactors.
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Old 2006-09-04, 12:19   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Renegade334
Freedom and Justice were meant to fight in tandem (one long-range interceptor/superiority fighter and a close range dogfighter), so it's normal to outfit Justice with Freedom's reactor (so that the two can last as long as each other) - not to mention that a nuclear-powered MS is needed to power up the second METEOR.

Oh yea you are right I thought that METEOR had its own energy supply but I guess I was wrong thanks for telling me.
Isn't it strange to find that Freedom is much more famous than Justice though they have participated in more or less the same things (ORB battle , Jaquin Due ) ?
Isn't it strange that no one knows about Freedom's pilot identity?
ZAFT military only refers to Freedom's pilot as "Freedom" but Dullindal , Rey know about the pilot.
About Legend I think it is kind of normal for it not to run out of energy it mainly uses beam attacks either from the DRAGOON system or the beam saber and Legend being an upgraded version of Providence would have no power issues since it has no experimental equipment such as Destiny's Wings of Light.
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Old 2006-09-04, 12:28   Link #70
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Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
Oh yea you are right I thought that METEOR had its own energy supply but I guess I was wrong thanks for telling me.
Isn't it strange to find that Freedom is much more famous than Justice though they have participated in more or less the same things (ORB battle , Jaquin Due ) ?
Freedom became infamous for being stolen (under ZAFT's big nose) and stalling Operation Spitbreak.
Then came Orb and Jachin Due. It's just that it has a longer service life than Justice and holds less bitter memories for ZAFT. If you recall, Athrun was given Justice and went on a high-priority, low-profile mission to retrieve and/or destroy Freedom...and news of it being used for something other than Patrick Zala's plans came too late...and only a few persons like the Chairman himself learned that. With Boaz being whacked by EA and the appearance of Natural-piloted MSes, ZAFT had other issues to worry about.
Also, Justice has a lower record against ZAFT than Freedom has. Kira not only bashed ZAFT MSes during Spitbreak, but it also gave a spanking to the troops trying to capture Lacus and Raww Le Creuset, a ZAFT ace. Athrun did less than that, so he's got less hatred on his back.

Quote:
Isn't it strange that no one knows about Freedom's pilot identity?
ZAFT military only refers to Freedom's pilot as "Freedom" but Dullindal , Rey know about the pilot.
Raww might have had a chat with Durandal before he went to Jachin Due, who knows. There could always have been an exchange of information by then. And even so, Durandal was already aware of who Kira was - since it appears he was the one who instilled Canard Pars with the desire to kill the Ultimate Coordinator and he worked on Hibiki/Da Fllaga's genetics programs.
There's also the possibility that Yzak mentioned Kira in a top-secret report to the High Council. Freedom and Justice were old and bad news. No need to reopen wounds and advertise your past failures. Shush them.

Quote:
About Legend I think it is kind of normal for it not to run out of energy it mainly uses beam attacks either from the DRAGOON system or the beam saber and Legend being an upgraded version of Providence would have no power issues since it has no experimental equipment such as Destiny's Wings of Light.
Not to mention that the backpack has enough volume to contain additional batteries to charge up the DRAGOONs and still have a little energy left for backup. It's also speculated that SF's own Super DRAGOONs have in-built batteries (which is a possible explanation for the 'Super' name), which would explain why they are so voluminous yet only have a single cannon.

Nevertheless it's also interesting to know that Freedom and Justice could power up METEORs with "conventional" reactors and batteries yet Destiny's upgraded power plant and batteries couldn't hold up for its own weaponry...which is technically less impressive or requires less energy than that...unless, of course, the METEORs have their own big-ass batteries on top of the embedded MSes'.
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Old 2006-09-04, 12:40   Link #71
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Giving the context, I'm surprised that Kira isn't seen as a hero in PLANT. he did knock down the nukes that would have obliterated everything, and also stopped the war. In the beginning of destiny you can see that peace has the absolute moral high ground, and being the bringers of peace Kira and co should have a high place. The old military personnels all had if not admiration deep respect for the AA and freedom, and also athrun, since they saved their world after all.

As for SF's dragoon only having one cannon, face it, gundam design, especially for a highlight suit like SF, is influenced by how the thing would look. Since the dragoon units are prism-like, it just looks better for them to have only one cannon.
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Old 2006-09-04, 13:03   Link #72
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I think Jachin Due was more controversial than Lunamaria let on. Sure, they didn't die, but they didn't win either. And the Junius 7 treaty was seen as disadvantageous for Plant (costing Canaver the chairmanship), so Freedom's pilot's (and Athrun's) positions in the heart and minds of coordinators could be... ambiguous.
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Old 2006-09-04, 13:06   Link #73
Renegade334
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Originally Posted by anselfir
Giving the context, I'm surprised that Kira isn't seen as a hero in PLANT. he did knock down the nukes that would have obliterated everything, and also stopped the war.
But
1°) he fought against ZAFT
2°) he stole ZAFT's pride, the Freedom
3°) he was part of another big embarassment for ZAFT - the TSA and Eternal
4°) he killed Raww, ZAFT's top ace
5°) I don't think a lot of people know him and his name. I don't see Kira parading in PLANT's streets or being forced to. Much less walking up to a stage for a speech. He's low-profile (especially for a brooding, angst-sick teenagerso I guess it's normal for him to crave for shelter from unwanted attention. It'd be out of character for him to seek the spotlight and start strutting around boasting about his feats.

If you combine all of those factors, then Kira's role in the previous war can and will only be seen as that of a skilled, exceptional fighter, not a hero's. You just don't go and cherish someone who joined with EA then messed big time with ZAFT. That'd be another nail on ZAFT's coffin - having the population adore a powerful enemy that gave you haemorrhoids for weeks if not months. *gulp* My god. The horror. Don't they have any shame after all they (ZAFT) have endured?

So let's make the tale a little less glitzy and have everyone harbor a mitigiated, neutral opinion.

Especially if Durandal knows that Kira and Co. will most likely oppose him. There is no need portraying his party as heros especially when they're about to be branded as terrorists or Blue Cosmos loyalists or sympathizers, even if it is unthinkable for Coordinators.
Quote:
In the beginning of destiny you can see that peace has the absolute moral high ground, and being the bringers of peace Kira and co should have a high place. The old military personnels all had if not admiration deep respect for the AA and freedom, and also athrun, since they saved their world after all.
Oh, come on...TSA is Lacus. And Lacus is with Durandal...only that her true name is Meer Campbell. If Archangel suddenly doesn't obey Lacus-sama's orders, then the only explanation for that is that they're rogues or rebels that must be silenced ASAP. They only need "Lacus"...sorry, Meer.
And, again, Durandal will not allow potential enemies to gain so much influence from the population. Not if he can help it.

Quote:
As for SF's dragoon only having one cannon, face it, gundam design, especially for a highlight suit like SF, is influenced by how the thing would look. Since the dragoon units are prism-like, it just looks better for them to have only one cannon.
Not necessarily...they could have also made it 'crack' asunder and deploy a couple cannons or behave like Nu-Gundam's funnels...but those DRAGOONs are a mystery for me since they don't feature a visible barrel and such...so I'll pass on them. I don't know what's inside.
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Old 2006-09-04, 13:38   Link #74
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Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
ok thanks for the info
I don't think Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice plans were part of ZAFT they were made by Terminal of course heavily based on Freedom and Justice
So how do you explain that they:

1) Use an OLD ZAFT designation system
2) Uses weaponry with ZAFT designations
3) Uses weaponry with lower ZAFT designation numbers than newer ZAFT releases? Eg the Strike Freedom's Super DRAGOONS is EQFU-X3 or something like that while Chaos is EQFU-X5, which implies that they were designed before Chaos'.
4) SF's beam shield generators and the beam shield generator on IJ's shield have lower model numbers than the ones on the DOM Troopers (which lost out against the ZAKU in mass production trials), which has the same as the ones used on Destiny.

All this points to IJ and SF being designed and several of their weapons being developed before later suits. They were built by "Terminal", but most likely designed by ZAFT, just like the DOM Trooper first was. ZAFT technicians loyal to the Pink Menace probably stole the design and research data for SF and IJ as well as that of newer technology like the beam shields, which for some reason wasn't included in SF and IJ - they may just not have been compatible, or whatever.
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Old 2006-09-04, 13:47   Link #75
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The "nationalistic" concept of ZAFT should have taken quite a hit in SEED, so the us against them mentality should be recognized as erronous. But blame the plot for not showing it that way. Look at post ww2 europe. If the nationalistic side of PLANT was still alive, at least it does not have the usual moral authority.

Kira fought against ZAFT in the sense that he tried to stop the operations of the Zala regime, which is already disgraced anyways.

Say your home village was taken over by a bunch of mobsters who want to turn it into a terrorist training camp, and there are some ammo dumps in your village that will surely be used by terrorists, is it bad to take these ammo dumps out of the current administration's hands? Stealing Freedom so that the war can be stopped is a good thing, for PLANT.

The key here is who the people identify with. Given the moral superiority of TSA, it is quite certain that they were also the good side in the eyes of post-war PLANT.

ZAFT's embarrassment is not its losses to Kira, it is the fact that ZAFT fought against kira in the first place. The actions of their leaders were the real embarassment.

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Oh, come on...TSA is Lacus. And Lacus is with Durandal...only that her true name is Meer Campbell. If Archangel suddenly doesn't obey Lacus-sama's orders, then the only explanation for that is that they're rogues or rebels that must be silenced ASAP. They only need "Lacus"...sorry, Meer.
And, again, Durandal will not allow potential enemies to gain so much influence from the population. Not if he can help it.
Having Lacus with the Dully government certainly helped to throw things into confusion, but that does not mean the AA or Freedom ceases to have the significance of saviors for PLANT. The reaction would be, how could these good people go against us, not "hey it is time to kill these enemies of zaft."

But then again I am anti-nationalistic, and an anarchist by position, so I might have too high an expectation.

Dully gaining power is not explained in detail, so we do not know how he did it. Really he must have out-lacused lacus to win.

Terminal may be outside of ZAFT, but they are still mostly coordinators. It is like a paramilitary organization that serves PLANT without serving ZAFT.

Quote:
I think Jachin Due was more controversial than Lunamaria let on. Sure, they didn't die, but they didn't win either. And the Junius 7 treaty was seen as disadvantageous for Plant (costing Canaver the chairmanship), so Freedom's pilot's (and Athrun's) positions in the heart and minds of coordinators could be... ambiguous.
But the PLANT will not identify with "they," as in the Zala administration that wanted to obliterate every human being on earth. I have no idea why they just signed an arms control treaty after SEED, it seems awefully out of place.

Quote:
Not necessarily...they could have also made it 'crack' asunder and deploy a couple cannons or behave like Nu-Gundam's funnels...but those DRAGOONs are a mystery for me since they don't feature a visible barrel and such...so I'll pass on them. I don't know what's inside.
I just like prism things with one beam coming out of it, the 3 beam things looked weird. Anyways, give the animation team more time, I'm sure they would have made them more fancy, like having beam sabers coming out and stuff.
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Old 2006-09-04, 14:10   Link #76
zgmf-x19a
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Originally Posted by srb
So how do you explain that they:

1) Use an OLD ZAFT designation system
2) Uses weaponry with ZAFT designations
3) Uses weaponry with lower ZAFT designation numbers than newer ZAFT releases? Eg the Strike Freedom's Super DRAGOONS is EQFU-X3 or something like that while Chaos is EQFU-X5, which implies that they were designed before Chaos'.
4) SF's beam shield generators and the beam shield generator on IJ's shield have lower model numbers than the ones on the DOM Troopers (which lost out against the ZAKU in mass production trials), which has the same as the ones used on Destiny.

All this points to IJ and SF being designed and several of their weapons being developed before later suits. They were built by "Terminal", but most likely designed by ZAFT, just like the DOM Trooper first was. ZAFT technicians loyal to the Pink Menace probably stole the design and research data for SF and IJ as well as that of newer technology like the beam shields, which for some reason wasn't included in SF and IJ - they may just not have been compatible, or whatever.

Lacus' loyalists have access to ZAFT technology that can't be denied
1) they aren't part of ZAFT so they can use whatever system they want
2) their technology was from ZAFT since the same loyalists worked or are still working for ZAFT
3) not necessary e.g Destiny having a lower number than Impulse is an example it isn't said that Destiny was built before Impulse IIRC Dullindal said that Destiny was a Gundam made especially for Shin . Newer doesn't mean better
4) I don't know

I don't think that the plans for IJ and SF were stolen they were actually created by the "Terminal" members they were heavily based on the original models Freedom and Justice
about the DOM unit well that is true it was effectively taken from ZAFT but they considered it a failure for mass production well it's understandable having energy shields for a "grunt" type would cost too much
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Old 2006-09-04, 14:21   Link #77
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Having Lacus with the Dully government certainly helped to throw things into confusion, but that does not mean the AA or Freedom ceases to have the significance of saviors for PLANT. The reaction would be, how could these good people go against us, not "hey it is time to kill these enemies of zaft."
It doesn't necessarily need to be a 'former heroes gone bad' idea that goes throughout their heads - what if Durandal, for example, suggested that TSA's assets got scattered after the war and suddenly ended up in the wrong hands? That ZAFT Commander and his vice-commander in ep39 clearly called Eternal and its crew 'terrorists', not 'those guys' (neutral) or 'those who fought for us last war and save PLANT. ZOMG' (admirative). Or at least the once saviors ceased to be and definitely became bad guys.
Between Durandal's good guy attitude (backed by breasty/skimpy-Lacus) and people who unexplainedly start messing with ZAFT, the choice on whom to believe is easily made.
That shows that there is clearly disinformation or propaganda at work - however symbolic the ships may be, the crews behind the instruments might have less consideration to get from ZAFT. And respect, too.
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Old 2006-09-04, 14:24   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Renegade334
It doesn't necessarily need to be a 'former heroes gone bad' idea that goes throughout their heads - what if Durandal, for example, suggested that TSA's assets got scattered after the war and suddenly ended up in the wrong hands? That ZAFT Commander and his vice-commander in ep39 clearly called Eternal and its crew 'terrorists', not 'those guys' (neutral) or 'those who fought for us last war and save PLANT. ZOMG' (admirative). Or at least the once saviors ceased to be and definitely became bad guys.
That shows that there is clearly disinformation or propaganda at work - however symbolic the ships may be, the crews behind the instruments might have less consideration to get from ZAFT. And respect, too.

true Dullindal always manipulates things to make him look good
e.g Destroy originally defeated by Freedom has been turned into a Destroy defeated by a courageous ZAFT member
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Old 2006-09-04, 14:38   Link #79
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Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
3) not necessary e.g Destiny having a lower number than Impulse is an example it isn't said that Destiny was built before Impulse IIRC Dullindal said that Destiny was a Gundam made especially for Shin . Newer doesn't mean better
Cf. one of my earlier posts in here - there are number classifications. Since Destiny still has that 'S' suffix to hide its true nature I guess it still obeys to the number thing...if number = order of appearance/creation, then I guess Gaia would have been the last one on the drawing boards.
You should also tell the U.S. Army to give its (now-cancelled) XM8 rifle a greater number than the M16's...despite nearly forty years of difference between each other, the XM8 was given a smaller number than its (intended) predecessor. Same thing for the XM26 underbarrel shotgun, which is slightly younger than the XM29 SABR/OICW.

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I don't think that the plans for IJ and SF were stolen they were actually created by the "Terminal" members they were heavily based on the original models Freedom and Justice
about the DOM unit well that is true it was effectively taken from ZAFT but they considered it a failure for mass production well it's understandable having energy shields for a "grunt" type would cost too much
As a matter of fact, Terminal engineered the entire failure so that it could steal the frames after they'd been sent to the scrap yard for dismantling. They falsified the results so that ZAFT would drop it in favor of the ZAKU.
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Old 2006-09-04, 14:40   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334
It doesn't necessarily need to be a 'former heroes gone bad' idea that goes throughout their heads - what if Durandal, for example, suggested that TSA's assets got scattered after the war and suddenly ended up in the wrong hands? That ZAFT Commander and his vice-commander in ep39 clearly called Eternal and its crew 'terrorists', not 'those guys' (neutral) or 'those who fought for us last war and save PLANT. ZOMG' (admirative). Or at least the once saviors ceased to be and definitely became bad guys.
Between Durandal's good guy attitude (backed by breasty/skimpy-Lacus) and people who unexplainedly start messing with ZAFT, the choice on whom to believe is easily made.
That shows that there is clearly disinformation or propaganda at work - however symbolic the ships may be, the crews behind the instruments might have less consideration to get from ZAFT. And respect, too.
Well, the original proposition was the status of the AA and Freedom to PLANT. Of course them being operated by terrorists is a good excuse to destroy them, but that does not mean they are not heroic symbols. We are getting quite a bit far away from the beaten path here.
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