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Old 2006-09-17, 22:26   Link #1
Mahou Hoshi
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Communism

Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
com·mu·nism (kmy-nzm) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "communism" [P]
n.

1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
2. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
Under this direct definition of communism as stated by dictionary.com, is America a communist society, economically?

The reason I state such is that we market the theory and concept of "free trade", but is it not true that we do not control the Federal Reserve, which is the backbone of the American economy in that it controls not only the prime rate, but also the value of the dollar itself.

Through personal research into banking I've found out that a long time ago, the money of the United States was fully backed by gold. This was switched to a fractional reserve method where US currency was partially backed by gold ("fractionally"), and then later, in the Nixon era, was completely abolished.

Yes yes, why am I posting this in an anime community well, I am sure that the entire anime community is not composed of ditzy otakus who whack off to hentai, therefore for the anime lovers that do find interest in such topics, I offer my argument up for intelligent debate.

Being that the US currency is no longer backed by gold, the value of the dollar is governed by the choice of the Federal Reserve to buy and sell securities to strengthen or weaken the US economy as needed to provide its stability.

Utilizing the laws of supply and demand, having less money in circulation would increase the dollar's value, and having too much money in circulation would decrease its value. Using this buying and selling technique as the government, the Fed can stabilize the US economy.

However what if the Fed's intentions were not purely motivated to preserve the will of the American populous, but rather to satisfy their own personal conventions as in the market of International trade and whatnot?

I would like to point out that the Federal Reserve, which controls all the economy of America, something so powerful, being that money runs the world whether we like it or not -- we do not elect these guys.

Did you notice? So if the most powerful force in America (being that America's power is determined by its economic strength) is governed by no one, has no regulations, and is purely selected by the powers that be, is it not true that America is a communist society by definition, being that the Fed is not democratically elected?

Americans don't elect the people that run the blood of America - its money. Its economy. Demo sore ga America no honto chikara. Doushite?

Sources:
- A documentary found on thepiratebay (a torrent site)
- A book on banking from the business library

No, I did not steal this from some source on the Internet. I am over the age of 13, under the age of 25, but do research for my own desires.

My current series are Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni, Utawarerumono, Strawberry Panic, Zero no Tsukaima, Blood+, Innocent Venus, and Night Head Genesis (and probably some others I forgot) and I do like anime too.
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Old 2006-09-17, 23:15   Link #2
Aoie_Emesai
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To be correct, America is a Representative Democracy, but we aren't getting technical at the moment so this will do. I also don't specialize in Economics so i'll just watch and learn ^_^.

Here's the Definition. Wikipedia link for it too.

Representative Democracy - A form of government in which power is held by the people and exercised indirectly through elected representatives who make decisions.
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Old 2006-09-17, 23:58   Link #3
mantidor
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Communism would work so well if the authoritarian government that ends up in charge wasnt full of such bad, corrupt and selfish people, but they are humans, and thats why it has never work and it will never work as its supposed to.

Well, the same could be said about democracy to be honest, all these governements work awesome but only on paper.
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Old 2006-09-18, 00:20   Link #4
Kikaifan
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Yep, it's the basic flaw in communism that people usually act in their own interests first, and the basic flaw in capitalism that they usually can't fully evaluate what's in their own interests.

And if you ask me it's a flaw in our in-between system that each spends all their damn time trying to influence the other instead of just doing their thing.

Huge generalizations FTW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
Under this direct definition of communism as stated by dictionary.com, is America a communist society, economically?
I think it'll just turn into a big discussion of degree... any government large enough to run a modern country is going to have its fingers in the economy somewhere and unelected officials involved in that process, so all there is to discuss is how much government oversight makes an economy 'communist.'
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Old 2006-09-18, 00:40   Link #5
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
The reason I state such is that we market the theory and concept of "free trade", but is it not true that we do not control the Federal Reserve, which is the backbone of the American economy in that it controls not only the prime rate, but also the value of the dollar itself.
The people don't directly control the board of governors of the U.S. Federal Reserve, no, but they are nominated by the sitting president and confirmed by the Senate. They also have a limited term of 14 years. The presidents of the district Banks are elected by the Banks' directors and approved by the Board of Governors. The district Banks serve the local banks within their districts, so I see them indirectly serving the people as well.

Source: Federal Reserve site

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
I would like to point out that the Federal Reserve, which controls all the economy of America, something so powerful, being that money runs the world whether we like it or not -- we do not elect these guys.
I actually don't mind that they don't stand for election. There's already enough pork and deals going on in government with politicians trying to and staying elected; having people who control rates (and indirectly the money supply) and whose words can move markets outside of the country pandering to people also... The chaos that might happen if politics get involved and too overboard will not be fun to watch, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
Through personal research into banking I've found out that a long time ago, the money of the United States was fully backed by gold. This was switched to a fractional reserve method where US currency was partially backed by gold ("fractionally"), and then later, in the Nixon era, was completely abolished.
Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but the gold standard meant that there must be a certain amount of gold physically available somewhere for the amount of dollars that is in circulation? If so, then does that mean:

1. the gold held in reserve aren't doing anything for the economy since you can't spend or loan it out,

2. the supply of money allowed to circulate is also limited, and

3. would the value of the U.S. dollar be pegged to the value of gold, which is not, IMHO, something that the U.S. alone can control? Gold isn't just mined in the U.S., but in places like South Africa, Bolivia, and etc. If so and something was to affect production - say a strike or even a revolution - wouldn't the value of money be caused to fluctuate as well? If the U.S. controls the value of gold, it could only be within its territory also, and if its value is different than that outside, arbitrage is possible, no?
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Old 2006-09-18, 01:24   Link #6
Kyuusai
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Is the economy influenced by government policy? Yes, as has been the case in every government and economy.

Is it communist? No. Businesses are not under the direct control of the government, and they are regulated very loosely--and the primary regulations on business are by state and local governments.
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Old 2006-09-18, 01:56   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
Under this direct definition of communism as stated by dictionary.com, is America a communist society, economically?

The reason I state such is that we market the theory and concept of "free trade", but is it not true that we do not control the Federal Reserve, which is the backbone of the American economy in that it controls not only the prime rate, but also the value of the dollar itself.
The definition you give completely fails at the last part, and partially for the earlier parts. The goods are definitely not shared equally, and that is a result of capitalism.

I guess most of the countries, if not all, control the currency using similar measures. Controlling currency has a direct impact on the economy, but it does not alone determine the state of the economy. Especially if the economy of a country is highly dependent on economical relations with other countries (export and import), the economical control you have will not be 100%. It sits on a balance and you cannot shift that the way you like, even if the organizations that have control over it are not directly selected by you (and in such organizations it is usually the case that ordinary people like me usually have no direct impact on the decisions).

There is also an interesting situation here. You are selecting the people who can govern the country. If those people determine the people who can run the economy, it means indirectly you select the people who run the economy. However, if the people controlling the economy are not selected by the people you select for governing the country, then that means the state does not have full control over the economy. So, you either have a say in the economy or, neither you nor the government have full say in the economy. Either ways the definition you give fails to represent the situation.
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Old 2006-09-18, 02:05   Link #8
kj1980
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If you claim America to be Communist, Marx and Engels would be rolling over in their graves.

Get universal health care first, then you'll be one step closer to the revolution. I don't see that happening in the near future, so the U.S. is still stuck in a system where the bourgeoisie parasitically lives off the proletariats.

Last edited by kj1980; 2006-09-18 at 12:42.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:43   Link #9
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We practically elect the lowest of the house and the one right above us vote the class above them and this goes on till one grand person is chosen. If you think about it the government is much like a monarch, while they hold lesser authority than a monarch, the rights they can give and take is like one. While many of us are the working class working for the ruling class, there's always one who work and the other commands. This chain of command has always been like this since the dawn of human civilation, we just gotta accept it. (whether we are the medium/lower class or the upper class)

-Seperation of power is just competition for more dominance of control.
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Old 2006-09-19, 08:16   Link #10
kinniku_man
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I think that US has many cultural marxists.
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Old 2006-09-19, 14:56   Link #11
Sakaki
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I thought we were an autonomous collective.
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Last edited by Sakaki; 2006-09-19 at 19:44.
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Old 2006-09-19, 16:50   Link #12
Gibilterra
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Goverment intervention in market doesn't mean kommunizm.
Many companies often try to monopoly market and this situation is no good for audience and nation itself.
And,Keynes' economics seems to be very effective for recovering of economy.
But,these days by some surveillances show it not so effective and difficult.
You recommends america to be kommunizm?
Do you have any vendetta against america?
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Old 2006-09-19, 19:07   Link #13
i0td
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
Just to be precise, this really is more of a definition of socialism, the transitional form before achieving communism. Communism is actually completely collective government and ownership. Except for those very minor isolated island communities, no state has ever achieved perfect communism, so there is no way the US comes close to even being a communist society in name. Sure the US governmental and financial institutions have great influence, but their purpose is really to make capitalism function all the more efficiently.
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Old 2006-09-21, 07:36   Link #14
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i0td
Just to be precise, this really is more of a definition of socialism, the transitional form before achieving communism.
Exactly. Could not say better

Quote:
Originally Posted by i0td
Communism is actually completely collective government and ownership. Except for those very minor isolated island communities, no state has ever achieved perfect communism, so there is no way the US comes close to even being a communist society in name. Sure the US governmental and financial institutions have great influence, but their purpose is really to make capitalism function all the more efficiently.
And I want to add:

While in socialism money is still needed to control the spreading of goods among the citizens, it will be obsolete in true communism (which basically means you go into a super market and take what you need for free). Communism is heavily based on the stages of moral development regarding the participating citizens. (for more information about stages of moral development according to Kohlberg see the wiki page here). A community relying on communism needs citizens that have at least stage 4 moral or higher regarding the own wealth and labor.
Citizens need to have the will/moral to work for the public good of the society not themselves. And they need to have the will/moral to consume the same amount of products that every one else consumes. In that aspect communism is a very very modern concept for societies. Too modern for human beings on a broader perspective. Maybe societies in a far future will live according to these principles. The science fictional Star Trek Universe i.e. features such an idea of communism. There communism is reached by advanced technology, that allows people to work as a hobby and to do everything else with automated production. Still it demands a high stage of moral to be no grabber.

There is no true communism nor capitalism in larger communities. It is a mixture of both ideas, in some countries more social in other less. There is i.e. the idea of social capitalism... or i.e. two political systems, social democracy (social democrats would settle for a medium between capitalism and socialism) and democratic socialism (democratic socialists advocate absolute socialism and want to abolish capitalism through democratic means) see wiki page here.

The USA has imo one of the closest to ideal capitalism being systems in the first world.

Last edited by Jinto; 2006-09-21 at 08:14.
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Old 2006-09-21, 18:16   Link #15
Kyuusai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
If you claim America to be Communist, Marx and Engels would be rolling over in their graves.

Get universal health care first, then you'll be one step closer to the revolution. I don't see that happening in the near future, so the U.S. is still stuck in a system where the bourgeoisie parasitically lives off the proletariats.
While I'm as mad as any one else about the benefits given to the largest of corporations, doesn't history show us that communism only serves to strengthen the bourgeoisie/proletariat structure and prevent people from rising from the lower level to the higher?

And America does, on a state-by-state basis, have a form of socialized medicine for those who can't afford commercial health care--it just uses the commercial health-care system itself.

There is a reason that many people cross the border to be cared for in the US.
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Old 2006-09-21, 19:02   Link #16
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai
While I'm as mad as any one else about the benefits given to the largest of corporations, doesn't history show us that communism only serves to strengthen the bourgeoisie/proletariat structure and prevent people from rising from the lower level to the higher?
...
Actually no, history does not show this effect, because there has not been real communism in practice yet. I wonder what they teached you in history. Judging from what I observed in the media, the US seemed to never be very exact with the definition of communism, so they applied it for basically every regime based on (pseudo) socialism.
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Old 2006-09-21, 19:36   Link #17
i0td
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin
Judging from what I observed in the media, the US seemed to never be very exact with the definition of communism, so they applied it for basically every regime based on (pseudo) socialism.
Exactly why so many confuse the terms socialism and communism and pretty much use them interchangeably. Especially during the Cold War McCarthyism scare, it seemed as though anything viewed as evil or even hinting at being anti-American just carelessly gets the 'communist' label.

And yes, I agree with your earlier post. No time soon will we find a state with an ideal communist society. The very principles of the ideology simply are not inherent in human nature.
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Old 2006-09-21, 20:13   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou Hoshi
Under this direct definition of communism as stated by dictionary.com, is America a communist society, economically?

The reason I state such is that we market the theory and concept of "free trade", but is it not true that we do not control the Federal Reserve, which is the backbone of the American economy in that it controls not only the prime rate, but also the value of the dollar itself.

Through personal research into banking I've found out that a long time ago, the money of the United States was fully backed by gold. This was switched to a fractional reserve method where US currency was partially backed by gold ("fractionally"), and then later, in the Nixon era, was completely abolished.

Being that the US currency is no longer backed by gold, the value of the dollar is governed by the choice of the Federal Reserve to buy and sell securities to strengthen or weaken the US economy as needed to provide its stability.


I would like to point out that the Federal Reserve, which controls all the economy of America, something so powerful, being that money runs the world whether we like it or not -- we do not elect these guys.
The Fed does not control the value of the dollar, no single entity does, they can influence the value of the dollar but they can't decide one day, "lets double the value of the dollar" It simply doesn't work that way, the main purpose of the Fed is to keep the value of the dollar constant. Many, many other factors effect the value of a currency, as shown by the change in value of one currency vs another, at one point a euro was only worth $.90, the last time I went to Europe it was worth $1.25. Markets control the value of the dollar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
If you think this is what the US government is doing then I have two questions for you: Where did you find a drug to make you so delusioned? and where can I get some? In no way are the goods in the United States shared equally, if they were I probably wouldn't have the computer I'm typing on, or the car I drive, because I'm lucky and my parents work hard and make a good deal of money. I haven't worked for a dime of it, I'm not proud of this but It's true, I benifit from the fact that there is unequal distrabution of wealth.

America isn't anywhere close to being communist, the government does play a role in the economy, a very large role, but it doesn't control it. The government doesn't tell GM what kind of cars to build and how many.

As for communism, it doesn't exist and never has, at least not in the marxist definition. It was a wonderful idea but Marx ignored some key factors, the biggest one: the middle class. Marx believed that gap between the upper class and the lower class would eventually become so large that a revolution was a certainty, however he failed to factor in the middle class, because the middle class would never let this happen, and the lower class can't succeed without the middle class. The upper class wants to stay the upper class; the middle class want to be the upper class; and the lower class wants to be the middle class. The middle class would never go along with a Marxist revolution because it elimintates what they desire: the upper class. So the upper class danges the carrot of wealth in front of the middle class and they follow blindly. Want proof? MTV, VH1, E!, People magazine. All of it. TV shows that follow the rich and famous, all there because thats the American dream, to be rich and famous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sakaki
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You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship!
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Last edited by mit7059; 2006-09-21 at 20:35.
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Old 2006-09-21, 20:57   Link #19
gencbiba
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I say that we all should trash governments, and go back to ancient civilization style. Everything was so much simpler back then. School wasn't required, socializing wasn't so damn hard, and we wouldn't have problems finding a mate!! Heh, I'm just joking of course but it's pretty cool to dream sometimes. As far as communism, I don't know much about the technical part of governments since I never really paid much attention in class during these crucial parts but I can say that Marx sure had a cool idea. However, when put in use, it went to hell. Can't say anything else besides that because there are much more educated people in this forum than me so I don't want to look like a fool. BTW, isn't USA a Democratic Republic, where the ideas of both fields are somewhat fused together, and put to use?
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Old 2006-09-21, 21:31   Link #20
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Well the way how it appears to me though is that things just turn into some sort of oligarchy no matter what the political system might be... well I agree about that there is no one that has implemented Marxist Communism successfully on a national scale.
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