AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-09-27, 17:07   Link #201
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
While I am not neccessairly advocating a case for totalitarianism, at the same time, I am also not advocating a fragmentation of power. You and I both know that if ORB restructured itself after SEED and after the death of Cagali's father, it would have been better prepared to face an upcoming war. Yet, Cagali didn't. She gave that chance up even when the Terminal was available as an external force to assist her. Now, we learned from the side stories that certain ORB families do maintain, in addition to their existing political influences, private armies! This includes Yuna. The way Cagali was handling the situation was obviously not beneficial to ORB in any way.

Its obvious that at a time of war, a country is strongest when united. But for ORB? That simply wasn't the case. When you have internal factions that disagree with each other and on the brink of a civil war, we have a probelm.
It's not that simple. They rebuilt Orb. It must have cost a lot, and Cagalli probably spent quite a lot of her political credit demanding the necessary sacrifices. That's what forced her into an alliance with the Seiran.

As for using Terminal - a decidedly Plant affiliated organisation - to bolster her power... What would you think of a ruler using a foreign army to enforce her authority? There's a recipe for revolt if I ever saw one. Besides, Terminal's built for spying and small actions. Not occupation. And even without going that far, just using Lacus as a political advisor... there would be delicate balances involved.

In hindsight, it's easy to see that following the Seirans was moronic. But think about it. In the first war, Orb refused to pick a side, and got invaded. When another war, that they weren't prepared for at all, came up, wasn't it reasonable to ally with one of the big powers?

Personally, I'd have chosen Plant. Maybe Cagalli would have, too. But she was seemingly outvoted (how much power did the Seirans have anyway?). What was she to do?
Quote:
Well, I did say "She knew about it, but only after Andy reported it to her."

Perhaps I should also add that Andy also 'suggested' to her certain 'projects' we witnessed in GSD. Andy's involvement shouldn't be surprising. I am simply pointing out to the fact that it was not solely Lacus who was behind everything. I'd argue that the actual overseer of the 'Terminal' build up was actually Andy, not Lacus.

Lastly, Andy gave her the keys, but its up to her to hide it. So if Andy didn't know where the keys were, well, he wasn't supposed to.

- Tak
IMO, she knew before they did anything. She approved of it.

Lacus's the leader. She gives the orders, and in exchange gets the responsibility, the credit, and the blame. I really don't see Andy as a pupeteer for Lacus. While he may take care of a lot for her, she's the leader in truth as well as name.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-09-27, 17:23   Link #202
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
As for using Terminal - a decidedly Plant affiliated organisation - to bolster her power... What would you think of a ruler using a foreign army to enforce her authority?
Yet, that could have been excused right after the First War, when she could have used the Terminal as an excuse to form a united political front. That did not happen. What she needed to do was to show ORB that Terminal wasn't an occupant force, that they were there to help defend the soverignty of ORB. She never did that, and kind of shurgged them aside. Then she kept them as a secret, because she lost her chance to expose them publically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
In hindsight, it's easy to see that following the Seirans was moronic. But think about it. In the first war, Orb refused to pick a side, and got invaded. When another war, that they weren't prepared for at all, came up, wasn't it reasonable to ally with one of the big powers?
Or alternatively, using political manipulation to pit the two powers against each other even more so than the level they were in. Cagali had the option to broadcast a simple message to Earth stating that: 'invading us will only force us to seek alliance with the other faction'. They didn't try that, instead, the Feds were chosen immediately and PLANT wasn't even considered.

Surely, both PLANT and EA weren't pushing their options with ORB, but if ORB offered their allegiance without being asked for it, who wouldn't want it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Personally, I'd have chosen Plant. Maybe Cagalli would have, too. But she was seemingly outvoted (how much power did the Seirans have anyway?). What was she to do?
And its not just the Seirans, there were other families too. Why the Feddies, I have no idea, although Yuna was probably a Blue-Cosmos sympathizer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
IMO, she knew before they did anything. She approved of it.
Well, she had to, it was her money. Yet, what I am saying is, most of the projects and build-ups were suggested by Andy, not her. I see her reluctant emotions when Kira demanded the keys as an indcation of that. Besides, she knew very little of military logistics, it would have been primairly Andy who handled everything from the very start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Lacus's the leader. She gives the orders, and in exchange gets the responsibility, the credit, and the blame. I really don't see Andy as a pupeteer for Lacus. While he may take care of a lot for her, she's the leader in truth as well as name.
I understand that, and I do not doubt her status as the 'leader'. However, being a leader does not excuse the fact that Andy was the primary operator behind everything.

- Tak
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-09-27, 18:16   Link #203
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Yet, that could have been excused right after the First War, when she could have used the Terminal as an excuse to form a united political front. That did not happen. What she needed to do was to show ORB that Terminal wasn't an occupant force, that they were there to help defend the soverignty of ORB. She never did that, and kind of shurgged them aside. Then she kept them as a secret, because she lost her chance to expose them publically.
"Expose them publicly"? As in, destroy their single greatest asset? What would be the point of that?

I repeat, since you didn't seem to get it the first time. Terminal, especially in the first war, is totally unsuited to the purpose of occupation. They're small and seriously lacking in hardware. (My guess is, they built themselves up between the two wars. In the first one, they pretty much only had Eternal and their spy network.)

And no matter how much you present them as "allies", if you use them to say "do what I say because they're on my side", it won't be well received.

Or alternatively, using political manipulation to pit the two powers against each other even more so than the level they were in. Cagali had the option to broadcast a simple message to Earth stating that: 'invading us will only force us to seek alliance with the other faction'. They didn't try that, instead, the Feds were chosen immediately and PLANT wasn't even considered. [/quote]
It might just as easily spurred an invasion without getting them an alliance. For example, the EA might have seen it as a challenge, while Plant saw it as a strictly EA-Orb affair, and a danger to their avowed peace seeking approach.

Quote:
Surely, both PLANT and EA weren't pushing their options with ORB, but if ORB offered their allegiance without being asked for it, who wouldn't want it?
Uh. Saying "if one of you annoys me I'll get with the other one" isn't the same as offering an unconditional alliance.

Actually, if you really want to do that, you should just loudly proclaim your neutrality. The threat of allying with the other if things get too hot would be implicit. But she couldn't really do that because of internal politics, because that's what they did it in the first war, with the results we know, as Yuna was quick to point out.

Quote:
And its not just the Seirans, there were other families too.
Yes, that's what I'm wondering - how many of those families were controlled by the Seirans? They must have been the leader of some big faction, which is why Cagalli was in bed with them.

Quote:
Why the Feddies, I have no idea, although Yuna was probably a Blue-Cosmos sympathizer.
Probably. He must also have estimated they had the greater chances of coming out on top, which should have been a dead give away the EA was going to lose badly...

Quote:
Well, she had to, it was her money. Yet, what I am saying is, most of the projects and build-ups were suggested by Andy, not her. I see her reluctant emotions when Kira demanded the keys as an indcation of that. Besides, she knew very little of military logistics, it would have been primairly Andy who handled everything from the very start.



I understand that, and I do not doubt her status as the 'leader'. However, being a leader does not excuse the fact that Andy was the primary operator behind everything.

- Tak
"Final say" far outweighs "suggestion". Maybe Andy suggested it and maybe he didn't. Maybe he took care of the details and maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter one bit. Neither did her "reluctance". She chose. That's what matters.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-09-27, 19:21   Link #204
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I repeat, since you didn't seem to get it the first time. Terminal, especially in the first war, is totally unsuited to the purpose of occupation. They're small and seriously lacking in hardware. (My guess is, they built themselves up between the two wars. In the first one, they pretty much only had Eternal and their spy network.)
You misunderstood me. My intention was to have Cagali use the Terminal to reach a political front in ORB, not occuation. It is a fact that a majority of ORB's armed forces sided with the Terminal/Clyne Faction/Cagali after the first war, and Cagali at the time had the best opportunity to unite the families (or significantly cut their private armies) of ORB in order to reach a political union.

Nonetheless, she missed the chance, and allow everything to disperse over time.

Yes, I do admit I may sound like I am trying to promote a dictator out of her, because what I am offering is a strong-arms tactic. But IMO, its a possible solution. What she did at the end of SEED hardly solved any existing problems of ORB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Uh. Saying "if one of you annoys me I'll get with the other one" isn't the same as offering an unconditional alliance.
Uhh, I was referring to Yuna's alliance with the Feddies. He done it without a second thought. I said:

"Surely, both PLANT and EA weren't pushing their options with ORB, but if ORB offered their allegiance without being asked for it, who wouldn't want it?"

In other words, if ORB offered their allegiance to either side, why would PLANT or the Feddies reject the offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Actually, if you really want to do that, you should just loudly proclaim your neutrality. The threat of allying with the other if things get too hot would be implicit. But she couldn't really do that because of internal politics, because that's what they did it in the first war, with the results we know, as Yuna was quick to point out.
Yes, although as much as I hate to see it or admit it, it was Yuna who oh-so-helpfully point out the obvious. Yet, what ORB forgot to do, besides holding on against overwhelming odds in the last war, was to proclaim to EA the possibilities of an ORB-PLANT alliance. Instead, they chose complete neutrality.

Although I also have to admit, allying with PLANT might not have been in ORB's best interest in the long-run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
"Final say" far outweighs "suggestion". Maybe Andy suggested it and maybe he didn't. Maybe he took care of the details and maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter one bit. Neither did her "reluctance". She chose. That's what matters.
Her leadership nonewithstanding. I was not talking about Lacus' status as a 'leader'. I simply pointed out the possibilities that it was Andy who was better suited to orchestrate everything Terminal had in GSD. Lacus might have given OKs, but I was making a case against Eidolon Sniper, who argued that 'Lacus built everything', because without Andy, Lacus would probably have nothing.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2006-09-27 at 19:37.
Tak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-09-29, 12:20   Link #205
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
Spoiler:
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-05, 08:27   Link #206
Mutou Yuugi
Kazama no Shinken
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A new journey to find the answer for who I am...
Send a message via MSN to Mutou Yuugi
Oh yes, I remember since Gundam SEED Phase 50. I think Lacus-san turned into SEED mode and so does Cagalli. Kinda I watched 3 years ago.
__________________
Mutou Yuugi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.