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Old 2006-09-09, 15:35   Link #21
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
On a second thought, maybe you are right. Although I have yet to see a Natural going SEED...
Cagalli is the one you're searching for - since Ulen just needed a son to genetically meddle around with, she was left in Via Hibiki's womb and was born a Natural, not a Coordinator - and it's confirmed in the Destiny section of GundamOfficial, so end of argument here. We've already got one case under our elbow.

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That may be true. However, even Uzumi knew little of Cagali's anatomy (or the extent of his 'daughter's' abilities). I presume experienments were commenced on both Cagali and Kira while they were in the womb, except Kira was taken for the purpose of advacing into the 'next' stage.
Nope, as I said, Cagalli was left in Via's womb and was born naturally while Kira was born IIRC two months later since he spent his embryonic growth inside an artificial womb. I guess a father like Ulen Hibiki prefers to have his son an UC rather than a daughter.

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And at this moment, all SEED grants is power. We have no proof right now of what other special abilities are associated with SEED. I suppose you can go to an extent and state that there is limited telepathic ability between Lacus and Kira, but that'd be a huge stretch
Since it appears to be part of human evolution instead of a byproduct of genetical modifications, everything can be expected from this point. It doesn't necessarily mean the appearance of full-fledged abilities like telekinesis or telepathy but perhaps higher perceptions or hints of abilities that have yet to be developed by humanity's current members but that will be found fully complete in people, say, living three of five hundred years for now. The so-called precognition might very have been a higher sense of intuition but not necessarily the Newtype-like foresight or mind-reading.


As for the SEED mode...well, Shigeru Morita once said in (November 2005's issue) Animage interview (the article was called 'GSD 20 Questions') that SEED was triggered by stress - here the interview:
Quote:
*Is there a basis for SEED mode?
You can really put this in numbers. Basically, it's kinda like when you're caught in a huge fire and driven to limits, you exert crazy power. Both Naturals and Coordinators can go SEED - it's something all humans have. But older people don't go SEED in the series, so it seems like it's connected to the future of the younger generation.
Moreover, GundamOfficial states this:
Quote:
But in theory, those who possess the SEED factor have the ability to advance to the next stage of human evolution - an ability unrelated to whether the carrier is a Natural or a Coordinator.
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Old 2006-09-09, 15:51   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaZEROCustom
Uzumi says Cagalli is a Natural in SEED. He says "Cagalli is a Natural, while Kira here is a Coordinator." Remember, Cagalli, was born naturally, while Kira was removed from their mother for the Ultimate Coordinator Project.
Being born naturally has aboslutely nothing to do with being a coordinator. All coordianators are borned naturally, they are simply being altered while still inside the mothers vomb. And we have no idea wether Cagali was altered or not
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Old 2006-09-09, 15:54   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334


Nope, as I said, Cagalli was left in Via's womb and was born naturally while Kira was born IIRC two months later since he spent his embryonic growth inside an artificial womb. I guess a father like Ulen Hibiki prefers to have his son an UC rather than a daughter.
Not all coordies are born in artificial wombs, some were experiemented upon before brith. With a dad as crazy as Ulen, you can't tell if Cagali was free of even the slightest alterations before her birth.

- Tak (And I just noticed Skyfall posting the same thing, nevermind)
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Old 2006-09-09, 16:10   Link #24
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Not all coordies are born in artificial wombs, some were experiemented upon before brith. With a dad as crazy as Ulen, you can't tell if Cagali was free of even the slightest alterations before her birth.

- Tak (And I just noticed Skyfall posting the same thing, nevermind)
I never stated that the way you were born made you either a Coordinator or a Natural - it's whether your DNA is modified beyond Natural standards or not that defines your status as either Coordie or Nat. Ulen Hibiki wanted his son to be an UC so he tweaked Kira's genes around. Cagalli was left untouched in her mother's womb since Ulen had no use for her and already had his guinea pig. Moreover, it seems that Via strongly objected to genetical engineering and even wanted her son back - something which Ulen violently opposed since he was hell-bent on creating the Ultimate Coordinator. Cagalli basically had no reason to be made into a Coordinator.

In Cagalli's case, as GundamOfficial states, she is a Natural. She wasn't experimented on or had her genes pilfered with so that means that she isn't eligible for the title of Coordinator.

However, as Shigeru Morita said, SEED mode is available to both races and depends on factors irrelevant to the C/N distinction - like stress bursts, which appear to be the main trigger.
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Old 2006-09-09, 16:13   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334

In Cagalli's case, as GundamOfficial states, she is Natural. She wasn't experimented on or had her genome pilfered with so that means that she isn't eligible for the title of Coordinator.
It said that much? Hmm, I should check the official webby again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334
However, as Shigeru Morita said, SEED mode is available to both races and depends on factors irrelevant to the C/N distinction - like stress bursts, which appear to be the main trigger.
Now now, I never disputed that. I simply stated, SEED mode on her seemed to be a waste, because its completely worthless. Although emotional/stress bursts weren't even required later on. All the top players just went SEED pretty much whenever they wanted to.

- Tak
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Old 2006-09-09, 16:23   Link #26
Renegade334
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Originally Posted by Tak
It said that much? Hmm, I should check the official webby again...
Her profile only states that she is clearly a Natural, nothing else (it's not like they bother stating everything ) - the Ultimate Coordinator entry only covers the basics, that blah blah blah, "Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor."
...Which probably means that Cagalli wasn't subjected to the same treatment as Kira did - that she wasn't put in that infamous AW. Seeing Via's objections, I also doubt she let her husband do any harm to her daughter, although I'd like to know why she still let Kira be taken away and be made into the UC.

Also, it should be interesting to note that GundamOfficial still states, in the Natural entry, that
"In the Cosmic Era, genetic engineering is also used to correct hereditary genetic defects, but people who have merely received this kind of corrective modification are considered to be Naturals rather than true Coordinators."
So it's possible for Cagalli to have received genetical corrections (for hereditary illnesses and whatnot) but she didn't receive body enhancements that'd have made her into a Coordinator.

On a last note, GO defines SEED as "A factor that determines the course of a species' evolution."
Is it possible for people who have become proficient with SEED, to give birth to children that might evolve faster than ordinary humans? Even if it occurs through several (dozen) generations?
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Old 2006-09-09, 17:11   Link #27
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Lacus' seed mode doesn't grant her power really, and that alone should illustrate that SEED mode is much more than +100 to power level sort of thing. The way an action anime is, you'd expect people to go SEED when they want to fight, but that is not to say SEED is there just for the power, since there are a lot of baggage that goes with it that will go to waste if SEED is just for sheer power. Numerous references to "destined evolution" and such should be further hints. These are hints, of course, and I am not here to prove anything, merely presenting an interesting view.

Bene Gesserit only became fearful of their own creation after the reign of Leto II, before that the KH was seen as a messiah not a curse. Regardless of these details, that certain special unions should produce significant genetic mix to alter history is present in both worlds as a major major director of events.

The Shinn thing, I am really convinced that he is a redundant character. We'll see what they use him for in the movies, but I dont think him being there helps the story at all, unless they find him a girl with SEED too, or this will turn out nasty.

come on, SEED for Lacus is there for the breeding program.
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Old 2006-09-09, 18:03   Link #28
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Shin is actually with Lunamaria who has no SEED mode at all
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Old 2006-09-09, 18:09   Link #29
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Originally Posted by anselfir
The Shinn thing, I am really convinced that he is a redundant character. We'll see what they use him for in the movies, but I dont think him being there helps the story at all, unless they find him a girl with SEED too, or this will turn out nasty.
^ as said, Shinn is with Luna who has no SEED mode. But then again if you want Shinn with someone who has SEED he can go for Cagali :P They sure have the tempers to match each other :P
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Old 2006-09-09, 18:14   Link #30
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Ah, Cagalli, wasted. Get back with athrun and forget Orb! >_> Screwing with a large part of the fanbase is not a good thing, I hope they learn that lesson in future installments.

Maybe there can be only one SEED couple, in that case Athrun got really fucked over.
sigh, more kira genetic superiority imba. ^^;
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Old 2006-09-09, 18:18   Link #31
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I bet the characters themselves wouldnt give a flying rats arse wether their partner has SEED mode or not :P
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Old 2006-09-09, 18:34   Link #32
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Well, maybe not, but in say 400 years, when they look back on it all, there will be some comments made.
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Old 2006-09-09, 19:33   Link #33
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Originally Posted by anselfir
Well, maybe not, but in say 400 years, when they look back on it all, there will be some comments made.
That is of course, assuming they are not ALL Kira's descendants to begin with.

According to this: http://kenkoudaa.sakura.ne.jp/page100.html it could be a very likely situation

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Old 2006-09-09, 22:24   Link #34
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Cagalli is a Natural, as was said over and over again...Cagalli didn't receive any special treatments for her to be able to SEED. She wasn't part of the Ultimate Coordinator Project. Kira was.

SEED has nothing to do with being a Coordinator or a Natural, as gundamofficial already stated it in their CE SEED glossary of terms.

Some fans speculate that Lacus SEED isn't even canon, as there is no

a) special walnut explosion
b) dilated eyes (or whatever you call it)
c) instead of becoming emotional accompanied by breathtaking 9,999 points up in agility and what have you, she still remains...um...calm

as accompanied by SEED flareups of the other 4. SEED in the CE Gundam games are just there for the sake of Lacus having SEED. Come on, Lacus SEED grants 10000 HP heal? Of course, that is just in the game itself, but still.
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Old 2006-09-09, 22:36   Link #35
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As far as I can tell, there's never been a full explanation of what SEED mode is, or what it's supposed to do. My interpretation is that it's not some sort of power-up; instead, it's just a visual cue that a character is at her limits in terms of focus, awareness and determination. As such, it doesn't necessarily have to manifest in the middle of combat, but in any situation where a character has to give it her all. Personally, I think that it's a pretty nifty visual trick to let the audience know when a character is giving it her all.

In the case of Lacus, it doesn't increase her combat capability, it just means that all of her attention and focus is completely on the battle at hand. And that she knows exactly what she has to do (and perhaps what sacrifices she has to make) in order to achieve her goals.
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Old 2006-09-09, 22:36   Link #36
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There was no climatic moment to justify the walnut thing.
Her eyes look seedish
Spoiler:

SEED mode doesn't necessarily give user crazy emotions, nor does it make much sense for SEED to give only agility or strength.

But anyways as a general rule details such as this are not introduced for nothing. That Lacus has SEED is quite important to the story, and they had to state it somehow within the allocated time. In future stories I am sure this will be elaborated.
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Old 2006-09-09, 23:07   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
In the case of Lacus, it doesn't increase her combat capability, it just means that all of her attention and focus is completely on the battle at hand. And that she knows exactly what she has to do (and perhaps what sacrifices she has to make) in order to achieve her goals.
What do you make of the other 4 who have the SEED capability? Athrun, Kira, Cagalli and Shinn also become much more aware of the battle going on at that point in time, and know EXACTLY what to do too (in order to survive). So you mean to say that before Lacus SEEDs, she isn't completely focused on what she was doing? Her actions say otherwise... Even her fans would disagree that she isn't doing anything before she SEEDs...>.<;;

SEED is Superior Evolutionary Element Destined factor - it only means that it "determines" the course of a species' evolution. But Erika Simmons even said it, that that is SEED only in general theory. They have no idea what SEED could do. So we have instances wherein SEED people become even more badass in MS fighting against one SEED person who generally becomes even "more focused in battle and knows what to do" just by sitting there. So, if we are to go by majority wins, those people with the badass abilities when they SEED is more of what SEED could actually do than just sitting there looking pretty.

SEED seems to be a power up, as what Athrun, Kira, Cagalli, and Shinn suggests, and as what the video games and arcade also suggest.

And as there is no official explanation yet as what SEED really is (aside from being unleashed whenever people undergo stressful times and what have you), we could only base what we think on what the anime has shown us, and Lacus SEED has no explanation even more than what Kira's "Newtype" abilities that are supposed to be born from that same phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselfir
There was no climatic moment to justify the walnut thing.
Her eyes look seedish
The walnut explosion is what we get when we see Athrun, Kira, Cagalli and Shinn SEED. So we now think that in order to say that Lacus SEED IS SEED, then we also look for the exploding walnut before she SEEDs. Instead, she just "SEEDed" in SEED and we get some sort of "Newtype" flash/empathy before she "SEEDed" in Destiny (which may lead some of her fans to think that Lacus' SEED is special and that uniqueness could mean that she is also becoming a "Newtype" like Kira).
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Old 2006-09-09, 23:29   Link #38
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Personally to me, it's not even what SEED can do, but rather who came up with SEED. Technically, there need to be a particular individual that had came up with some research thesis/name of an increased mental state creating an image of a bursting seed. I'd argue that probably only the most intellectual people knew of SEED, considering it's supposed to be controversial.

The existing variants of SEED as in the Original SEED and post-Strike SEED makes one wonder exactly what defines SEED as a whole. There is the one where Kira became the Berserker, and there is the one where Kira had overall increased mental awareness, but is clearly in control of his full mental state. Athrun and Shinn demonstrates the latter SEED, but Shinn's one feel more like an angry version of Berserker SEED, while Kira's was a heartless Berserker. For all we know, Kira's Newtypish abilities themselves may very well be an extention of SEED, sort of like a 2nd level of SEED.
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Old 2006-09-09, 23:47   Link #39
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

The walnut explosion is what we get when we see Athrun, Kira, Cagalli and Shinn SEED. So we now think that in order to say that Lacus SEED IS SEED, then we also look for the exploding walnut before she SEEDs. Instead, she just "SEEDed" in SEED and we get some sort of "Newtype" flash/empathy before she "SEEDed" in Destiny (which may lead some of her fans to think that Lacus' SEED is special and that uniqueness could mean that she is also becoming a "Newtype" like Kira).
There is a certain dramatic element involved wtih the walnut thing, since it "bursts" under "stress/emotion." The walnut scene does not literally happen, itis just there for dramatic effect. Having that scene is not fundamentally related to being in SEED mode.

But yeah Lacus should be pretty special to be with the ultimate coordinator, me think.
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Old 2006-09-09, 23:52   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
What do you make of the other 4 who have the SEED capability? Athrun, Kira, Cagalli and Shinn also become much more aware of the battle going on at that point in time, and know EXACTLY what to do too (in order to survive). So you mean to say that before Lacus SEEDs, she isn't completely focused on what she was doing? Her actions say otherwise... Even her fans would disagree that she isn't doing anything before she SEEDs...>.<;;
I think that all the "SEED capability" is nothing other than a visual cue that those characters are operating at their limits. It doesn't mean that they know what to do per se, but that they know what they have to do to achieve their goals. The difference may be subtle, but it's quite important nonetheless.

I wouldn't say that Lacus was necessarily unfocused before we saw her SEED eye-effect, but that when we saw her eyes, we can be certain that she was completely focused. In terms of physiology, it's actually extremely rare for someone to be completely focused on anything. No matter how one concentrates on a particular subject, there's usually some sort of distracting thoughts (like an itch somewhere, or an uncomfortable sitting position, or what to do after the big test, or something like that) – it's just the way the human mind works. I surmise that being in "SEED mode" means that the character has pushed that kind of distraction aside to concentrate on the task at hand. Whether Lacus was actually doing anything at the time is utterly irrelevant; what's important was her state of mind was at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
SEED seems to be a power up, as what Athrun, Kira, Cagalli, and Shinn suggests, and as what the video games and arcade also suggest.
I think that it's sort of silly to equate what happens in a game to what's canon in the actual show.
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