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Old 2006-09-09, 23:53   Link #41
AlphaDragoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Actually, its pretty much proven that Kira, Athrun and Shinn are all able to go seed on their will. While Lacus and Cagali may require 'situations'.
Erm, Kira I agree with...but Athrun and Shinn can SEED at will? I don't recall seeing anything that would support that.

The two times Athrun goes SEED in GSD are both key moments of a battle, in ep. 43 when he slices Destiny's arm off, and in ep. 50 (again, right as Shinn is launching a key attack). That to me suggested that it happened without him willing it do so, as sort of a "reflex" or a response to Athrun's heightened emotions at that point. Likewise with Shinn, it seems that whenever he gets upset or angry enough, he goes SEED.

Out of the five people we see SEED in the CE, Kira seems to be the only person who can access the state of his own volition. In GSD, all the the times Kira goes SEED seem to be right as he was about to enter a battle, or at the beginnings of a battle. The way they suggest him going SEED seems completely different from the others; it's not a dire situation or a key moment, emotions aren't running high or anything...he just well, does it.

Not taking away from Athrun or Shinn as pilots, but I really think that Kira's the only guy who has absolute control over when he can SEED. As for Lacus, by my saying "of the five people", I think you know where I stand.

BTW, I do believe that Kira's Newtype-esque powers could definitely be connected to the SEED. If Kira is in fact the only guy who can do it at will, then maybe as a result something more (that "something" being the NT-like power) has awakened within him.
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Old 2006-09-10, 00:23   Link #42
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I think that all the "SEED capability" is nothing other than a visual cue that those characters are operating at their limits. It doesn't mean that they know what to do per se, but that they know what they have to do to achieve their goals. The difference may be subtle, but it's quite important nonetheless.
SEED is special, and its uniqueness = only 5 people with SEED ability in the show. It's not just a "visual cue" that the person who has it is operating beyond their known limits.

They all become even more aware of what's going on around them, and therefore, they react to the stimulus more than the norm set time for reacting to one. They know what is happening to them beforehand, and after they SEED, they just become even more aware of it.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that Lacus was necessarily unfocused before we saw her SEED eye-effect, but that when we saw her eyes, we can be certain that she was completely focused.
Lacus is and was completely focused throughout the entire SEED Jachin Due War. When she "SEEDed", it didn't really mean that she has become even more focused or what have you. She really meant to bring the war to an end, and the "SEED" was there just to show that she really meant it, or what have you.

Quote:
In terms of physiology, it's actually extremely rare for someone to be completely focused on anything. No matter how one concentrates on a particular subject, there's usually some sort of distracting thoughts (like an itch somewhere, or an uncomfortable sitting position, or what to do after the big test, or something like that) – it's just the way the human mind works.
What do you call those people completely dedicated to their craft - champions of sports events, and what have you? It takes more than just sheer determination to get through with a very exhausting regimen. One has also to be completely focused on it.

Quote:
I surmise that being in "SEED mode" means that the character has pushed that kind of distraction aside to concentrate on the task at hand. Whether Lacus was actually doing anything at the time is utterly irrelevant; what's important was her state of mind was at the time.
They just normally react twice or thrice as fast, and yes, they are pushed way beyond their limits. Lacus wasn't really pushed beyond her limits at that time, if any, she might as well be upset because things weren't going the way that it should be, and that is, the war getting out of hand and because certain people are just to stubborn to admit defeat or whatever in terms of their ideals or beliefs.

Quote:
I think that it's sort of silly to equate what happens in a game to what's canon in the actual show.
Yeah, well, EVA 01 using a katana in a SRW game just well did it for me. And all those SP spells. Like they're going to happen in the real show. So yes, it's silly equating an anime show to its game counterpart. So if the games say Lacus has SEED, and Lacus show has SEED, hell she has SEED. And Fllay piloting an Ex S is just as so.

Some games just tend to exaggerate what was shown on the actual anime show. Lacus SEED is just as "SEED" as it could get, and if Fukuda says she's one of those people with SEED, then we just all have to agree to it whether all the other evidences say otherwise.
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Old 2006-09-10, 00:43   Link #43
tritoch
 
 
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I always thought that Seed is the next step in humanity's path.

I think the bulk of the explanation of what I mean is found in CCA. Hathaway and Quess had this conversation about newtypes and oldtypes. Because of the lack of communication methods in space, some people developed the ability to communicate to other people by sheer thoughts.

All people either Natural or Coordinators to me are considered oldtypes just that Coordinators are just genetically strengthened (think of Four, Mashumar, Gyunei)

Seed people are newtypes but it doesn't mean that they get heightened reflexes and such.

To furthur explain it:

Natural = learns the normal way.. mediocre at best but there are runaways sometimes.
Coordinator = cause of genetic alterations, they basically learn faster. They may have good physical qualities. Its like giving someone muscles but he/she might not like doing physical labor and stuff.
Seed = they learn fastest. or in terms of physical attribute, Very impressive physical qualities. Give a born painter some brush and watch them do their work.

I think of it like that. Just my opinion.
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Old 2006-09-10, 00:50   Link #44
4Tran
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Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that calling it "SEED mode" is appropriate at all. The characters themselves aren't really aware that they're acting or reacting any differently, nor does it seem as if there's necessarily any physiological change involved. SEED, as stated before stands for the "Superior Evolutionary Element Destined" factor (which we know basically nothing about), and the eye-effect may or may not be related to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
SEED is special, and its uniqueness = only 5 people with SEED ability in the show. It's not just a "visual cue" that the person who has it is operating beyond their known limits.
How does uniqueness make any difference? Whether it's shown for only one character, or a hundred characters, it can still be a visual cue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Lacus is and was completely focused throughout the entire SEED Jachin Due War. When she "SEEDed", it didn't really mean that she has become even more focused or what have you. She really meant to bring the war to an end, and the "SEED" was there just to show that she really meant it, or what have you.
How is that any different from "In the case of Lacus, it doesn't increase her combat capability, it just means that all of her attention and focus is completely on the battle at hand. And that she knows exactly what she has to do (and perhaps what sacrifices she has to make) in order to achieve her goals."?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
What do you call those people completely dedicated to their craft - champions of sports events, and what have you? It takes more than just sheer determination to get through with a very exhausting regimen. One has also to be completely focused on it.
I would call the SEED eye-effect a nifty visual representation of what they're already doing.
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Old 2006-09-10, 00:58   Link #45
anselfir
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You are asking for hard rigorous proof here, which is impossible to provide unless you get it from the creator of the show, those who define the subject in the first place. As it is now there are voids of information that restrict the strength of meaningful statements one can make. The clues suggest however that SEED is something, rather than some circumstantial condition. Really, if it is just max out concentration mode you'd think they wont go all out and give it a name, let alone name the show after it.
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Old 2006-09-10, 06:24   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
b) dilated eyes (or whatever you call it)
Um...yes there is


Quote:
c) instead of becoming emotional accompanied by breathtaking 9,999 points up in agility and what have you, she still remains...um...calm
Emotional....neither Athrun nor Kira are too emotional, if anything they are less emotional in SEED
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Old 2006-09-10, 09:20   Link #47
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Emotional....neither Athrun nor Kira are too emotional, if anything they are less emotional in SEED
Kira and Athrun's SEED were affected too much by emotion (like, Kira having to defend the Archangel from Andrew Waltfeld's attacks and his friends [and most especially Fllay's] lives are in great danger), and Athrun going SEED when he had to fight his best friend after he killed another close friend of his, during Gundam SEED. Cagalli's SEED was brought out by the death of the Astray girls, who, aside from being comrades, are people who she really felt attached to. SEED at this point is brought out by being quite emotional about it. This was further strengthened by the fact that Shinn usually gets very RAWR RAWR CHOP CHOP angry and getting his SEED explosion all of a sudden. This points out to the definition itself that SEED could be brought about by stress (as stated by the 20 questions thingy with one of the production people).

But, we have Lacus, who just SEEDs without undergoing severe emotional stress at that time, backed up by her "overall complete focus on the battle at hand" when she did so. This goes against the restrictions set by the other 4 people who do SEED.

As SEED is the guiding hand that guides the evolution of the species (namely, turning them into "Newtypes"), it may be speculated that once you get to use SEED mode more often, you get to evolve into somebody higher (as in the case of Kira, and maybe even Lacus). So, meaning to say, when you SEED often, you get to "control it at will", for more efficiency on the battlefield, or in Lacus' case, control the outcome of battles involving outer space armadas. But, those times in which Lacus SEEDs didn't actually affect the outcome of the battle in any way or the story itself; she just popped her unseen walnut and goes on about making a speech about war (which, of course, we already knew that at that time she is totally against the eradication of the entire human race because of one madman's whim) and felt her koi when he was in "grave" danger (which leads to the speculation that the "Newtype emphatic" ability she gains in the final episode could mean that she is, indeed, destined for greater things). How did that affect the story in any way? Granted that Kira used SEED more than anybody else on the CE cast, it's not like he suddenly becomes a "Newtype" after a 2 year hiatus wherein he battled with the ghosts of his painful past, including the death of his first love. Same goes for Lacus, who was only shown to "SEED" at one time in the entire course of the 1st series, then she suddenly exhibited "Newtype empathy" in the final episode...which goes against Kira's own way to achieving his "Newtype" status after going through many SEEDs. Moreover, Kira as the Ultimate Coordinator also goes against the special status of Lacus SEED; as he is the Ultimate, why would somebody evolve faster than him? The case of Raziel in Soul Reaver comes to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
]How is that any different from "In the case of Lacus, it doesn't increase her combat capability, it just means that all of her attention and focus is completely on the battle at hand. And that she knows exactly what she has to do (and perhaps what sacrifices she has to make) in order to achieve her goals."?
Well, you seem to imply that Lacus just gains unber concentration of the battle at hand FTW when she only SEEDs. As much as I am not a Lacus fan, I still believe that this is just totally out of Lacus' character not to be that focused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch
To furthur explain it:

Natural = learns the normal way.. mediocre at best but there are runaways sometimes.
Coordinator = cause of genetic alterations, they basically learn faster. They may have good physical qualities. Its like giving someone muscles but he/she might not like doing physical labor and stuff.
Seed = they learn fastest. or in terms of physical attribute, Very impressive physical qualities. Give a born painter some brush and watch them do their work.
It doesn't necessarily mean that they learn fastest when they SEED. It just means that they react to the situation twice/thrice faster than ordinary Naturals. As for the genes...yes, they have the genes to be brilliant, but they still need nurturing and proper training to be like that. Their ability to learn faster than their normal Natural counterparts come into play here. Coordinators aren't created to be "supermen": they are Naturals that in the sense that they still have to learn what to do with the gifts given to them; it's their being Coordinator that makes them apt to learn things twice/thrice as fast and have better coordination (pun intended) and agility, plus immunity to all diseases and the like.

Naturals aren't really mediocre at best. It was just portrayed to be that way because Coordinators are created to be better than them. Examples of good Naturals would be Lowe Guele (who is a kickass pilot) and Mwu La Flaga (not counting his Newtype powers, he kicked ass in his Moebius ZERO at the Battle of the Endymion Crater). Then we have Murrue Ramius, Natarle Badriguel, the 1st generation Extendeds (or druggies, if you prefer to call them that way; Kira and Athrun really had a hard time bringing them down), Tolle Koenig (who learned to pilot a Skygrasper just by doing simulation games about it), and maybe, those Naturals who were supposed to have been the original pilots of the Gs back in Heliopolis (I mean, they couldn't be just picked by being mediocre at best, right?).
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Old 2006-09-10, 13:08   Link #48
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Your post reminds me of a certain guy that likes to bold and color his phrases red.

RAWR RAWR CHOP CHOP $hinn

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Old 2006-09-10, 15:01   Link #49
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
But, we have Lacus, who just SEEDs without undergoing severe emotional stress at that time, backed up by her "overall complete focus on the battle at hand" when she did so. This goes against the restrictions set by the other 4 people who do SEED.
She was in the middle of a battlefield. With the Fate of the World(tm) in the balance. If that's not a stressful situation, what is?

Quote:
As SEED is the guiding hand that guides the evolution of the species (namely, turning them into "Newtypes"), it may be speculated that once you get to use SEED mode more often, you get to evolve into somebody higher (as in the case of Kira, and maybe even Lacus). So, meaning to say, when you SEED often, you get to "control it at will", for more efficiency on the battlefield, or in Lacus' case, control the outcome of battles involving outer space armadas.
I don't think Lacus' seed does much (except tell us that yes, she's a very important character, rather than merely the main character's love interest). I mean, once the battle has started, her role is just moral booster and negociator with the enemy. She doesn't even have any orders to give. So even if she thinks faster, better.... how is anyone to tell the difference?

Quote:
But, those times in which Lacus SEEDs didn't actually affect the outcome of the battle in any way or the story itself; she just popped her unseen walnut and goes on about making a speech about war (which, of course, we already knew that at that time she is totally against the eradication of the entire human race because of one madman's whim) and felt her koi when he was in "grave" danger (which leads to the speculation that the "Newtype emphatic" ability she gains in the final episode could mean that she is, indeed, destined for greater things).
Or it's just an indication of the bond between her and Kira. Maybe she does need to be Newtype at all to receive Kira's "waves". It's not like we even know how that works anyway.

Quote:
How did that affect the story in any way? Granted that Kira used SEED more than anybody else on the CE cast, it's not like he suddenly becomes a "Newtype" after a 2 year hiatus wherein he battled with the ghosts of his painful past, including the death of his first love.
He was already kinda newtypish in Seed's final fight. He felt something when Raw was close.

Quote:
Same goes for Lacus, who was only shown to "SEED" at one time in the entire course of the 1st series, then she suddenly exhibited "Newtype empathy" in the final episode...which goes against Kira's own way to achieving his "Newtype" status after going through many SEEDs. Moreover, Kira as the Ultimate Coordinator also goes against the special status of Lacus SEED; as he is the Ultimate, why would somebody evolve faster than him? The case of Raziel in Soul Reaver comes to mind.
Ultimate Coordinatorness has nothing to do with Seed. It could be possible for someone to have a better Seed than Kira, making him or her evolve faster, if with a lower starting point. Or better genes, even, if he's astronomically lucky. (Al da Flaga comes to mind.)



Quote:
Well, you seem to imply that Lacus just gains unber concentration of the battle at hand FTW when she only SEEDs. As much as I am not a Lacus fan, I still believe that this is just totally out of Lacus' character not to be that focused.
I think it's physiologically impossible to be completely focused on anyone thing for more than a few minutes. But maybe Lacus comes closer to complete, long lasting concentration with Seed than without (for all the good it does her).


Quote:
It doesn't necessarily mean that they learn fastest when they SEED. It just means that they react to the situation twice/thrice faster than ordinary Naturals. As for the genes...yes, they have the genes to be brilliant, but they still need nurturing and proper training to be like that. Their ability to learn faster than their normal Natural counterparts come into play here. Coordinators aren't created to be "supermen": they are Naturals that in the sense that they still have to learn what to do with the gifts given to them; it's their being Coordinator that makes them apt to learn things twice/thrice as fast and have better coordination (pun intended) and agility, plus immunity to all diseases and the like.

Naturals aren't really mediocre at best.
Naturals are like us, I guess. Some are good, some are bad, most are average.

Quote:
It was just portrayed to be that way because Coordinators are created to be better than them.
Yeah, well, actually, I'm not too impressed with grunt coordinators. Or with the general populace. (Did they really swallow that Destiny Plan shit?)

Quote:
Examples of good Naturals would be Lowe Guele (who is a kickass pilot) and Mwu La Flaga (not counting his Newtype powers, he kicked ass in his Moebius ZERO at the Battle of the Endymion Crater). Then we have Murrue Ramius,
She's shown more charismatic than brilliant.

Quote:
Natarle Badriguel, the 1st generation Extendeds (or druggies, if you prefer to call them that way; Kira and Athrun really had a hard time bringing them down), Tolle Koenig (who learned to pilot a Skygrasper just by doing simulation games about it),
So did everyone else, even if Tolle was better than them. (Someone had to be first after Cagalli, after all.) I think it's more a case of "in the future, fighter planes will be more user friendly" than anything else.

Quote:
and maybe, those Naturals who were supposed to have been the original pilots of the Gs back in Heliopolis (I mean, they couldn't be just picked by being mediocre at best, right?).
The cream of the crop! Who, after months of training, were still unable to use the MS well. Compare with Kira's performance after five minutes...
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Old 2006-09-10, 18:26   Link #50
zgmf-x19a
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The OS is essential for GUNDAMS to work perfectly in Gundam Seed Kira already had experience in programming so that helped a lot while the other pilots didn't customize their OS they let the technical department take care of it.
Well Lacus is different from the average coordinator she is very calm (episode 13 and 47) in the middle of gunshots she shows no signs of panic and her background is different from the average joe : already an idol and participating in her father's political duties and being more or less involved in politics at the beginning of GS she said she was part of some committee maybe that's why she can go SEED
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Old 2006-09-10, 18:38   Link #51
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
already an idol and participating in her father's political duties and being more or less involved in politics at the beginning of GS she said she was part of some committee maybe that's why she can go SEED
I really don't think that has anything to do with Lacus going SEED.

- Tak
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Old 2006-09-10, 18:54   Link #52
Nightengale
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SEED/GSD Conspiracy Theory #357469 (( If anyone actually bothered to remember lol )) : Lacus had SEED all along even back when she first met Kira and the very reason they don't show us her SEED-Break is because it is Strike-Kira's Berserker SEED.

Frankly, as shallow as it is, that would answer a few questions.
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Old 2006-09-10, 19:04   Link #53
anselfir
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How are seed modes differentiated? Maybe some call SEED mode berserker because usually SEED is triggered through stress/emotion, but that is not to say SEED mode brings out emotion and causes the user to go berserk. It may be a hidden ability that is called upon in critical situations, that the situation is stressful is a circumstantial event with no necessary relation to the SEED itself.

Kira might have the same SEED mode throughout, but did away with the berserker part.

As for when Lacus had SEED, since it is a genetic trait, she had it all along. Perhaps there are "passive" effects of having the SEED, effects that are active even without the dilated pupil goodness.
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Old 2006-09-10, 19:09   Link #54
Tak
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As far as I am concerned, SEED grants an individual heightened abilities, be that reflexes or thought process. It simply make things go 'faster faster faster'!

Great, now I want to see her actually piloting a Gundam in the anime.

Seeing her do that only in the game just wasn't enough for me.

- Tak (and in Generation of CE, I had her in the FREEDOM while Kira in his S. FREEDOM... ahh, that was golden)
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Old 2006-09-10, 19:19   Link #55
Nightengale
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I can't crop out GIF files since I'm now in my final exams with my DVD sets back home, but there is a clear substantial difference between Kira's SEED mode back when he was piloting Strike and when he pilots Freedom.

The size of the Berserker SEED was bigger than the regular SEED, not to mention it floats from one corner of the screen to the middle before it burst, unlike the regular SEED that burst right away.
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:00   Link #56
zgmf-x19a
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
I really don't think that has anything to do with Lacus going SEED.

- Tak
like I said before ordinary people don't have SEED their background is also kind of special too and I was trying to say that maybe her background could help her in having the possibility of going SEED even coordinators don't have the "SEED" choice either having it at their disposal or not
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:21   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
like I said before ordinary people don't have SEED their background is also kind of special too and I was trying to say that maybe her background could help her in having the possibility of going SEED even coordinators don't have the "SEED" choice either having it at their disposal or not

Shinn is a perfect example of how Seed can exist in non-special backstory. I mean come on, getting your family killed isn't special considering that alot of people lost their family at that war too.
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:21   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
I can't crop out GIF files since I'm now in my final exams with my DVD sets back home, but there is a clear substantial difference between Kira's SEED mode back when he was piloting Strike and when he pilots Freedom.

The size of the Berserker SEED was bigger than the regular SEED, not to mention it floats from one corner of the screen to the middle before it burst, unlike the regular SEED that burst right away.
I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean. Are you talking about when the Seed drops and then he looks up? You know.....when you can see his helmet or what ever then the seed pops then he loks up....
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:23   Link #59
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgmf-x19a
like I said before ordinary people don't have SEED their background is also kind of special too and I was trying to say that maybe her background could help her in having the possibility of going SEED even coordinators don't have the "SEED" choice either having it at their disposal or not
And just how many of 'normal people' we get to observe during the 100 episodes ?
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:24   Link #60
tritoch
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean. Are you talking about when the Seed drops and then he looks up? You know.....when you can see his helmet or what ever then the seed pops then he loks up....
Oh yeah. I got around and look at some of the episodes where Kira went zerker seed and then watched Shinn do it. Then watched the seed Kira did in GSD.

verdict: the animation sequence was cut. its the same or atleast to me it is.
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