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Old 2006-09-10, 20:37   Link #21
s-class uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
I don't see Yamato's wood similar than the Kyubi's chakra at all, if I had to compare it to something it would be Gaara's sand (ie a moving chakra-imbued stuff) which we did see Sasuke avoiding precisely when he charged the Sand Egg against Gaara. The power of the Chidori Nagashi was enough to shred Yamato's wood during the chapter 308 so it should still be the same anyway.

I don't really scale Sasuke's level right now, I do think he could beat Yamato but how much power should he use for that I'm not sure. Base mode? CS mode? CS2 full power?
I dunno.
The few we saw and heard about him was just enough to say that he's mean to be very strong, strong enough for his growth supposed to be unnatural thanks to special drugs and/or Kinjutsu but not strong enough to take on Itachi.
That place him above Neji who's however a jounin, possibly somewhere near Yamato, Kakashi, etc. possibly even above them at full power and below someone like Itachi.

The truth is Sasuke's level is entirely dependant of Naruto's. The stronger Naruto will get the better Sasuke will be. Simple as that.
Yamato is also very good with earth and water related jutsus. We know how much he is capable of based on what we saw especially in the recent chapters. If Sasuke decides to attack Yamato rather than flee like his master, then he is bound to suffer some pain.
[/QUOTE]

Yes I echo your sentiments exactly. I would be very surpurised if when Naruto and sasuke meet, that one would p0Wn the other, they will be similar.

Just right now, it's hard to tell how much cheese Kishi is gonna put into Sasuke...

1) CS2 (more?)
2) A powerful "that Jutsu"
3) Kusangi
4) Chidori Nagasaki or whatever
5) Genjutsu like crazy - going into Naruto's mind and suppressing Kyuubi
6) Kinjutsu
7) And dang it my goodness Drugs. Really, think about that. Sasuke is on Drugs, that's pretty sorry
8) Oh yea the Sharingan

--> Its hard to tell how crazy Kishi is making Sasuke.

Seriously... Itachi must be so crazy...
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Old 2006-09-10, 20:52   Link #22
Yamatofruit
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Old 2006-09-10, 21:05   Link #23
Sabaku Kyu
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Hunter & S-class bring up a lot of good points. Sasuke just has too many uber jutsus and power-ups. In addition to the techniques S-class listed, if Sasuke's been training under Oro it's a good chance he knows jutsu like Hidden Snake Hands and summoning the Rashoumon gates. All we've seen from Yamato is Mokuton. Mokuton is a very versatile jutsu but we've seen that Yamato tires when he uses it extensively. However, the cursed seal also gives Sasuke chakra reserves comparable to that of the Kyuubi's (at least lvl 1 anyway) meaning he'll be able to outlast Yamato stamina-wise in an extended battle.
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Old 2006-09-10, 21:55   Link #24
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
I don't see Yamato's wood similar than the Kyubi's chakra at all, if I had to compare it to something it would be Gaara's sand (ie a moving chakra-imbued stuff) which we did see Sasuke avoiding precisely when he charged the Sand Egg against Gaara. The power of the Chidori Nagashi was enough to shred Yamato's wood during the chapter 308 so it should still be the same anyway.
I think it is still different than Gaara's sand defense. In the mokuton jutsu, the trees and branches that will be form will show a lot more variation that the sand defense, which is limited to a small region around Gaara. The range and the variation in the location will be closer to Kyuubi's attack pattern than Gaara's sand spikes. And, if the anime team showed what happened in the manga for that part, then Sasuke wasn't able to avoid precisely since in the anime he was shown to be bleeding after he charged forward.

And I checked the chapter of Chidori Nagashi. If the given range of the jutsu is correct, it wasn't able to fully shred the main body of the wooden stick. It is possible, at least for some part, that Yamato tried to create small branches from that main branch, and the shreding that you were talking about might correspond to the fall of that pieces created by Yamato (I am not sure about that). However, if it was able to shred something that thick, and wouldn't even cause a small scratch or tearing on the clothing, then it is hard to know what the mangaka thinks. Still, if Yamato's serious mode would create trees similar to what Shodai created during Sandaime's fight, I don't think Sasuke's new Chidori will be able to give a lot damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
All we've seen from Yamato is Mokuton. Mokuton is a very versatile jutsu but we've seen that Yamato tires when he uses it extensively.
I guess you have missed the latest chapters where Yamato created a waterfall that is around a thousand clones long (I guess around 1km, in that case), and a hill that is as long and tens of meters of height. And, unless I haven't missed another part, I remember Yamato showing tired signals after his hours long struggle of controlling Kyuubi power.

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2006-09-10 at 22:07.
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Old 2006-09-10, 22:41   Link #25
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I guess you have missed the latest chapters where Yamato created a waterfall that is around a thousand clones long (I guess around 1km, in that case), and a hill that is as long and tens of meters of height. And, unless I haven't missed another part, I remember Yamato showing tired signals after his hours long struggle of controlling Kyuubi power.
Nope. In fact it was that chapter that I was referring to. After performing the jutsu, he nearly collapses from the effort, but he had been surpressing the kyuubi up until that point. Still, the fact remains that his chakra is limited while Sasuke can call on the cursed seal for more chakra.
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Old 2006-09-10, 22:56   Link #26
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
Still, the fact remains that his chakra is limited while Sasuke can call on the cursed seal for more chakra.
I couldn't find the chapter that describes how cursed seal works (so I might be wrong in the later comments), but I think its chakra usage is similar to the gate-opening technique. Meaning, you can be able to extract and access more chakra, but it still uses the user's own resources - and that is why we observe negative effects on the user. So, it doesn't give you extra chakra, it just allows you to use more of your chakra. In other words, the chakra amount Sasuke can use stays the same (in other words, limited applies also for Sasuke).
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Old 2006-09-10, 23:28   Link #27
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I couldn't find the chapter that describes how cursed seal works (so I might be wrong in the later comments), but I think its chakra usage is similar to the gate-opening technique. Meaning, you can be able to extract and access more chakra, but it still uses the user's own resources - and that is why we observe negative effects on the user. So, it doesn't give you extra chakra, it just allows you to use more of your chakra. In other words, the chakra amount Sasuke can use stays the same (in other words, limited applies also for Sasuke).
I think is not the same, because normal bodies without the assistance of this CS or Gates can't take full use of this Chakra (as using the body reserves), this is the reason of the gates to begin with, they control the amount of Chakra flowing, and if Im not mistaking also the amount been used.

So, in essence, no, Yamato without opening gates does not have similar use of Chakra as someone that uses up forcefully their reserves, in this case Opening gates or using the CS.

I don't agree with the whole "the ones who have more durability in terms of chakra is the one who wins", given that NInja battle have been implied to last short period of time, so one of the opponents should be defeated before either of the Ninjas is out of chakra/stamina. not to mention we don't even know who has a larger chakra pool of Sasuke or Yamato.
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Old 2006-09-11, 00:45   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I think it is still different than Gaara's sand defense. In the mokuton jutsu, the trees and branches that will be form will show a lot more variation that the sand defense, which is limited to a small region around Gaara.
Unlike the Shodai Hokage, Yamato used only polished wood in combat. No trees or branches.

Quote:
The range and the variation in the location will be closer to Kyuubi's attack pattern than Gaara's sand spikes.
What is Kyuubi's attack pattern?

Quote:
And, if the anime team showed what happened in the manga for that part, then Sasuke wasn't able to avoid precisely since in the anime he was shown to be bleeding after he charged forward.
Yes, Sasuke was bleeding when he tried to attack the thick defense.

Quote:
And I checked the chapter of Chidori Nagashi. If the given range of the jutsu is correct, it wasn't able to fully shred the main body of the wooden stick.
It did shred the part close to him, which is what Nagashi is all about.

Quote:
It is possible, at least for some part, that Yamato tried to create small branches from that main branch, and the shreding that you were talking about might correspond to the fall of that pieces created by Yamato (I am not sure about that).
Um, I don't think so.

Quote:
However, if it was able to shred something that thick, and wouldn't even cause a small scratch or tearing on the clothing, then it is hard to know what the mangaka thinks.
Clothes are invincible in this manga. ^^

Naruto could fully transform into a fox monster, his skin torn off,
and bleeding, yet his clothes were still intact when it was over.

Quote:
Still, if Yamato's serious mode would create trees similar to what Shodai created during Sandaime's fight, I don't think Sasuke's new Chidori will be able to give a lot damage.
Why? It's just a tree.
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Old 2006-09-11, 02:44   Link #29
Rachy
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Don't compare Yamato to Shodai >.>

Yamato was chosen for the mission because he could supress kyuubi-brat.

Sasuke would kill Yamato.

Being able to do it without CS2 would be questionable but once in CS2 he probably wouldn't have any trouble.
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:26   Link #30
Ichimaru
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hey can yamato contain sasuke CS? that is preventin him from goin cs, just like preventin naruto from going KM
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Old 2006-09-11, 03:36   Link #31
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Ichimaru
hey can yamato contain sasuke CS? that is preventin him from goin cs, just like preventin naruto from going KM
No. CS isn't anything to do with bijuu. Mokuton supression abilities that Yamato and Shodai use only effect bijuu.
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Old 2006-09-11, 05:24   Link #32
Yellow Flash
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The only one who could supress CS is Orochimaru.
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Old 2006-09-11, 05:30   Link #33
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss rave
Don't compare Yamato to Shodai >.>

Yamato was chosen for the mission because he could supress kyuubi-brat.

Sasuke would kill Yamato.

Being able to do it without CS2 would be questionable but once in CS2 he probably wouldn't have any trouble.
Dont you remember what the Sound 4 said about the Cursed Seal....

I think its safe to "assume" that Sasuke Cursed Seal is history...Sasuke was turning into a demon real fast...there is no way he trained 3 years even with his cursed seal..

Both Naruto & Sasuke had to sacrifice their special abilities...Kyuubi & Cursed Seal..

Now they will reveal their true power...their own power...so far Sasuke looks to be in lead (pretty clear) compared to Naruto
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Old 2006-09-11, 05:33   Link #34
Rachy
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Dont you remember what the Sound 4 said about the Cursed Seal....

I think its safe to "assume" that Sasuke Cursed Seal is history...Sasuke was turning into a demon real fast...there is no way he trained 3 years even with his cursed seal..

Both Naruto & Sasuke had to sacrifice their special abilities...Kyuubi & Cursed Seal..

Now they will reveal their true power...their own power...so far Sasuke looks to be in lead (pretty clear) compared to Naruto
It's kinda different. Sasuke could care less what he has to use to get enough power to kill Itachi losing himself forever to it he wouldn't mind as long as it was enough to kill Itachi.

Where as he doesn't have to trains since Orochimaru was around probably learned enough to go without, when he did need to use it for a short time it just boosts the level he is currently at dramatically.

I'm still worried what Kakashi said about it though.

Last edited by Rachy; 2006-09-11 at 05:50.
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Old 2006-09-11, 06:33   Link #35
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I think it is still different than Gaara's sand defense. In the mokuton jutsu, the trees and branches that will be form will show a lot more variation that the sand defense, which is limited to a small region around Gaara. The range and the variation in the location will be closer to Kyuubi's attack pattern than Gaara's sand spikes. And, if the anime team showed what happened in the manga for that part, then Sasuke wasn't able to avoid precisely since in the anime he was shown to be bleeding after he charged forward.
What? Gaara can make his sand take any form and use it on large range and location but that wasn't really the point I was making.
What I meant is that the wood isn't pure chakra but something controled by chakra hence the sharingan should be able understand what's going on.
Yamato can probably strengthen his wood just as Sasuke should be able to strenghten the destructive power of his attack.
Also Sasuke was shown bleeding after he charged the Sand Egg without Sharingan, when he activated it the Sand Spike didn't even scratch him.

The part of Yamato's wood which entered into the range of the Chidori Nagashi was destroyed and there is absolutely nothing suggesting the creation of small branches and Sasuke was also able to pass through Yamato's wood thanks to eitheir sheer strength or his sword (I should take a look at the sfx maybe they confirm what he did) so I don't see any problem for this particular point.
As for the cloths I don't know why you're surprised, it usually take stuff like fully charged Chidori or Rasengan to put a scratch on them.

All in all my sole point here is that Sasuke has showed the right tools to avoid and/or destroy wood attack (Sharingan, Katon, Raiton, speed, sword, the unknown aoe jutsu he used to destroy a large part of the ground in his room).
After that anything can happen and it's only up to Kishimoto to decide the outcome of course.
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Old 2006-09-11, 10:21   Link #36
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss rave
It's kinda different. Sasuke could care less what he has to use to get enough power to kill Itachi losing himself forever to it he wouldn't mind as long as it was enough to kill Itachi.

Where as he doesn't have to trains since Orochimaru was around probably learned enough to go without, when he did need to use it for a short time it just boosts the level he is currently at dramatically.

I'm still worried what Kakashi said about it though.
Well you said it yourself...CS is no option unless he fights Itachi...i think even you would agree that Sasuke didnt train with his cursed seal.. since the risk is probably higher then Naruto's use of Kyuubi...for the individual person..
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Old 2006-09-11, 11:51   Link #37
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
What? Gaara can make his sand take any form and use it on large range and location but that wasn't really the point I was making.
What I meant is that the wood isn't pure chakra but something controled by chakra hence the sharingan should be able understand what's going on.
Yamato can probably strengthen his wood just as Sasuke should be able to strenghten the destructive power of his attack.
Also Sasuke was shown bleeding after he charged the Sand Egg without Sharingan, when he activated it the Sand Spike didn't even scratch him.
What I meant is the sand that Gaara has used to attack Sasuke, and his other opponents. He can control any sand he likes but the one that has the biggest power and I guess fastest attack is the sand he carries, which is limited.

Anyway, that is just a matter of opinion, but for your chakra example, I don't really see the difference between pure chakra, and something that carries chakra. In humans Sharingan was able to predict movements because they can capture muscle movements etc. But, in the case of wooden spikes, if they are formed in a random manner, just like the chakra extensions, I don't see how Sharingan was able to predict its movement (a better choice of word will be generation). If something comes directly at the person, even someone without Sharingan can easily dodge that.

Also, for Sasuke avoiding sand spikes, I don't have the anime version with me, so I cannot be sure of, but in the manga, Sasuke is only shown to have Sharingan after he finished charging with Chidori. Logically, he has to have Sharingan activated at least while he was using Chidori, but we aren't shown that and given a closer look to his eyes. His eyes were shown all black all those times. So, I am not sure whether you can for sure say that Sasuke didn't activate his Sharingan when he charged at the sand spikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
The part of Yamato's wood which entered into the range of the Chidori Nagashi was destroyed and there is absolutely nothing suggesting the creation of small branches and Sasuke was also able to pass through Yamato's wood thanks to eitheir sheer strength or his sword (I should take a look at the sfx maybe they confirm what he did) so I don't see any problem for this particular point.
As for the cloths I don't know why you're surprised, it usually take stuff like fully charged Chidori or Rasengan to put a scratch on them.
The closest part that is assumed to be cut seem more like a branch to me than a cut. And if I were Yamato I wouldn't charge with a single piece of wood to a person, rather create branches to tie him and restrict his movements. Anyway, that is the logic I used for that branch theory.

Quote:
All in all my sole point here is that Sasuke has showed the right tools to avoid and/or destroy wood attack (Sharingan, Katon, Raiton, speed, sword, the unknown aoe jutsu he used to destroy a large part of the ground in his room).
After that anything can happen and it's only up to Kishimoto to decide the outcome of course.
You are right, Sasuke has the right tools to avoid wood attack, but Yamato has also the right tools to prevent that defensive moves or attacks (such as powerful water and earth based techniques). At the end it all depends on Kishimoto's decision, but at this point, it all depends on how we look at it, either giving credit to Yamato or Sasuke.
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Old 2006-09-11, 12:20   Link #38
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
I don't agree with the whole "the ones who have more durability in terms of chakra is the one who wins", given that NInja battle have been implied to last short period of time, so one of the opponents should be defeated before either of the Ninjas is out of chakra/stamina. not to mention we don't even know who has a larger chakra pool of Sasuke or Yamato.
You're right. Most ninja battles are short because they are skirmishes where both sides withdraw or one side retreats (ex. Sound Four vs. two Konoha jounin). Either that, or it's an ambush/assasination style attack where the enemy never sees the attack coming. However, a duel type "kill-or-be-killed" scenario between two ninja of similar strength and cunning can be a long, drawn-out affair (ex. Neji vs. Kidomaru). In a battle like that, stamina and chakra levels can make all the difference in the outcome. I assume that people are referring to the latter type of fight when they discuss Sasuke vs. Yamato which is why the whole chakra/stamina issue is bought up.

We don't know Yamato's chakra capacity but we do know that using a very powerful mokuton or doton justu (like the one he used to extend Naruto's training bridge) tires him out. I think Yamato using a mokuton like Shodai's where he's manipulating the branches with his chakra would quickly wear him out. Sasuke can use Katon jutsus all day, and he's probably up to at least 4 chidori (rakiri?) uses a day, since that's Kakashi's limit. This is without calling on the CS. Using CS, he can probably extend those limits.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-09-11 at 12:33.
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Old 2006-09-11, 12:49   Link #39
s-class uchiha
Naruto = Painful
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
You're right. Most ninja battles are short because they are skirmishes where both sides withdraw or one side retreats (ex. Sound Four vs. two Konoha jounin). Either that, or it's an ambush/assasination style attack where the enemy never sees the attack coming. However, a duel type "kill-or-be-killed" scenario between two ninja of similar strength and cunning can be a long, drawn-out affair (ex. Neji vs. Kidomaru). In a battle like that, stamina and chakra levels can make all the difference in the outcome. I assume that people are referring to the latter type of fight when they discuss Sasuke vs. Yamato which is why the whole chakra/stamina issue is bought up.

We don't know Yamato's chakra capacity but we do know that using a very powerful mokuton or doton justu (like the one he used to extend Naruto's training bridge) tires him out. I think Yamato using a mokuton like Shodai's where he's manipulating the branches with his chakra would quickly wear him out. Sasuke can use Katon jutsus all day, and he's probably up to at least 4 chidori (rakiri?) uses a day, since that's Kakashi's limit. This is without calling on the CS. Using CS, he can probably extend those limits.

Good point on stamina/chakara.

But, remember, Yamato was tired out mostly from all suppression and he was doing for Naruto, not b/c of that mokuton jutsu. Before the training started he seemlessly made a waterfall! So Yamato, being able to perform such a jutsu even in that state actually says that he has good stamina and chakara capacity.

As for Sasuke and CS...

1) If he truly doesn't care about losing himself to Orochimaru, then it really doesn't matter if he used in training or not. I suspect though, that for training purposes CS is usually unneccessary.

2) like many here, I suspect Sasuke might have a change of heart and prb didn't use CS thinking "just in case i want to live my life"
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Old 2006-09-11, 12:58   Link #40
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
You're right. Most ninja battles are short because they are skirmishes where both sides withdraw or one side retreats (ex. Sound Four vs. two Konoha jounin). Either that, or it's an ambush/assasination style attack where the enemy never sees the attack coming. However, a duel type "kill-or-be-killed" scenario between two ninja of similar strength and cunning can be a long, drawn-out affair (ex. Neji vs. Kidomaru). In a battle like that, stamina and chakra levels can make all the difference in the outcome. I assume that people are referring to the latter type of fight when they discuss Sasuke vs. Yamato which is why the whole chakra/stamina issue is bought up.
Yeah, And most probably in almost every fight you will see that maybe both of the opponent will be saying they low on Chakra, which does not means that the one who is going to win is always who has the biggest amount of Stamina/Chakra when they begin the fight, as Naruto should had been wining all his fight, and Kakashi would had lost against Zabuza.

And this is reffering to that by the time Yamato end up using all his chakra Sasuke would sitll had the reserves he can use wiht CS, thus SAsuke has an edge over Yamato because of this.
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