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Old 2006-09-16, 00:28   Link #21
Zek
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Join Date: May 2004
Age: 28
I think people get too caught up with the power levels in this series. It's not as DBZ-ish as it seems. All the Akatsuki members are extremely strong, but they can be defeated by inferior opponents given appropriate ability matchups(like Chiyo and Sakura vs. Sasori), and even more than that, the element of surprise(Deidara against pretty much everybody). We've been told from the beginning that ninjas are all about deception, but this sort of fell to the wayside when all the Genins were so much vastly weaker than the real villains. Now that they've all matured into full-fledged ninjas, Kishimoto is able to plausibly write them into Akatsuki fights and have them win with some "good guy luck" sprinkled here and there.
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Old 2006-09-16, 03:39   Link #22
cheese4u
da big boss
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
What people are forgetting is that every fight with Akatsuki has been 2 or more on one. And so far the only member of Akatsuki that has been defeated is Sasori, and according to Chiyo he had the opportunity to kill them but chose not to.

so consider this when you talk about the power of Akatsuki:


Chiyo(kage level) and Sakura(Chuunin) vs. Sasori (loss for Ak.)

Itachi and Kisame vs. Kikashi(Jonin), Kurenai(Jonin), Asuma(Jonin), Gai(Jonin) (Owned)

Tobi and Deidara vs. Sanbi(Biju) (owned)

Hidan and Kakuzu vs. Nibi and temple monks (owned)



I don't know about you, but I'd say Akatsuki is doing pretty good.
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Old 2006-09-16, 12:10   Link #23
Yamatofruit
Sixth Hokage
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: US
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u
What people are forgetting is that every fight with Akatsuki has been 2 or more on one. And so far the only member of Akatsuki that has been defeated is Sasori, and according to Chiyo he had the opportunity to kill them but chose not to.

so consider this when you talk about the power of Akatsuki:


Chiyo(kage level) and Sakura(Chuunin) vs. Sasori (loss for Ak.)

Itachi and Kisame vs. Kikashi(Jonin), Kurenai(Jonin), Asuma(Jonin), Gai(Jonin) (Owned)

Tobi and Deidara vs. Sanbi(Biju) (owned)

Hidan and Kakuzu vs. Nibi and temple monks (owned)



I don't know about you, but I'd say Akatsuki is doing pretty good.
Yeah but Chiyo would've OWNED if she was just younger.
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Old 2006-09-16, 12:11   Link #24
Mr. Johnny 5
Konoha's ANBU
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u
What people are forgetting is that every fight with Akatsuki has been 2 or more on one. And so far the only member of Akatsuki that has been defeated is Sasori, and according to Chiyo he had the opportunity to kill them but chose not to.

so consider this when you talk about the power of Akatsuki:


Chiyo(kage level) and Sakura(Chuunin) vs. Sasori (loss for Ak.)

Itachi and Kisame vs. Kikashi(Jonin), Kurenai(Jonin), Asuma(Jonin), Gai(Jonin) (Owned)

Tobi and Deidara vs. Sanbi(Biju) (owned)

Hidan and Kakuzu vs. Nibi and temple monks (owned)



I don't know about you, but I'd say Akatsuki is doing pretty good.
Itachi & Kisame ran 2 times away...for the so called (by some here) godlike persons i cant see any reason to run...

People so mighty should just enter the front door of Konoha openly and just walk to their target...(atleast Sasori & Deidara approached Suna like that leaving corpses behind)

Thinking back to the ninja wars i'd say the Sannin were a trio and feared perhaps even more then Akatsuki now...they have some serious rep+ in the whole world...
While Akatsuki seems more like a myth for some villagers..and shinobi...(till they meet them ofcourse)
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Old 2006-09-16, 22:28   Link #25
astayanax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5
Itachi & Kisame ran 2 times away...for the so called (by some here) godlike persons i cant see any reason to run...

People so mighty should just enter the front door of Konoha openly and just walk to their target...(atleast Sasori & Deidara approached Suna like that leaving corpses behind)

Thinking back to the ninja wars i'd say the Sannin were a trio and feared perhaps even more then Akatsuki now...they have some serious rep+ in the whole world...
While Akatsuki seems more like a myth for some villagers..and shinobi...(till they meet them ofcourse)
Kisame didn't want to run. He was well prepared to take on the Konoha jounins and even Jiraiya by himself if it falls down to that. He was ordered to run by Itachi.

Itachi had let his intentions be known that he didn't want to harm Konoha ninjas and purposively went out of his way to avoid a confrontation. Even when caught, he still gave them the opportunity to leave.

Offtopic, it isn't surprising that the Sannin should be more feared than Akatsuki simply because Akatsuki was keeping a very low profile all of this time; except for Orochimaru. Personally for most cases, it may be easier to fight a Sannin than a ninja like Deidara or Itachi.
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Old 2006-09-17, 06:50   Link #26
Mr. Johnny 5
Konoha's ANBU
 
 
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True astayanax, but i am starting to doubt whether Itachi really killed the clan...i mean ever since the massacre he never killed anyone else anymore..(from what we've seen)

If you are able to kill relatives and clan members but not everyone else i'd say there is something really messed up with your head (i know killing is already sick but this is worse)

For example...the Jackson family is pretty big...let's say Sam L starts killing all of the jacksons including the most famous others...but cant kill...non-jacksons..

Sasuke seems a good boy...but Itachi aswell...regardless of his words or implented genjutsu in Sasuke's head..

I'd say the 3rd Mangekyou Sharingan user is all behind this...

Itachi's personal goal for the 9 tails may be HIS objective just to beat the shit out of the 3rd MS user...because otherwise he is no match...(which is what i would rather believe...)
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Old 2006-09-17, 13:57   Link #27
astayanax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5
True astayanax, but i am starting to doubt whether Itachi really killed the clan...i mean ever since the massacre he never killed anyone else anymore..(from what we've seen)

If you are able to kill relatives and clan members but not everyone else i'd say there is something really messed up with your head (i know killing is already sick but this is worse)

For example...the Jackson family is pretty big...let's say Sam L starts killing all of the jacksons including the most famous others...but cant kill...non-jacksons..

Sasuke seems a good boy...but Itachi aswell...regardless of his words or implented genjutsu in Sasuke's head..

I'd say the 3rd Mangekyou Sharingan user is all behind this...

Itachi's personal goal for the 9 tails may be HIS objective just to beat the shit out of the 3rd MS user...because otherwise he is no match...(which is what i would rather believe...)
Yeah although there is no proof, I am leaning this way myself. I think there is alot more to the Uchiha clan than is being let known; especially considering it ties to Kyuubi, demonic powers, and the restrictions placed onto it by the hokage... plus the rivalry with ANBU.
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Old 2006-09-17, 14:43   Link #28
yamato_D
Nazo no Tenshi
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
well regardless of their intentions, i hope the bijuu start to put up a good fight against akatsuki. i mean, the ichibi was defeated by naruto; nibi easily defeated by hidan and kakuzu; and sanbi defeated effortlessly by deidara and tobi. if the whole more tails = more power theory is correct, it'd better be an exponential growth. i mean, 4 tail naruto gave orochimaru a run for his money, so the gobi (if they haven't already caught it) should be more interesting.
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Old 2006-09-17, 15:53   Link #29
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
Kisame didn't want to run. He was well prepared to take on the Konoha jounins and even Jiraiya by himself if it falls down to that. He was ordered to run by Itachi.

Itachi had let his intentions be known that he didn't want to harm Konoha ninjas and purposively went out of his way to avoid a confrontation. Even when caught, he still gave them the opportunity to leave.
Itachi used, his most powerful weapon, MS, on all the Konoha ninjas there, and if Kakashi wouldn't have noticed that they would have all died. So much for not intending to harm Konoha ninjas, I guess killing does not count as giving harm for you.

Kisame with his realistic clone took on Gai and the others assuming that he would have still won. But, he lost. What does that mean? When he is in the warfield (maybe even in general), he is "incapable" of judging his opponents' strength and rush forward like a mentally-incapable animal without considering the consequences based on a sole assumption that his opponents cannot beat him. What does that imply? He will soon be defeated by people he would consider to be weaker than him.
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Old 2006-09-17, 18:52   Link #30
DAmer
Hokage
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: USA, NewJersey
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u
What people are forgetting is that every fight with Akatsuki has been 2 or more on one. And so far the only member of Akatsuki that has been defeated is Sasori, and according to Chiyo he had the opportunity to kill them but chose not to.

so consider this when you talk about the power of Akatsuki:


Chiyo(kage level) and Sakura(Chuunin) vs. Sasori (loss for Ak.)

Itachi and Kisame vs. Kikashi(Jonin), Kurenai(Jonin), Asuma(Jonin), Gai(Jonin) (Owned)

Tobi and Deidara vs. Sanbi(Biju) (owned)

Hidan and Kakuzu vs. Nibi and temple monks (owned)



I don't know about you, but I'd say Akatsuki is doing pretty good.
You missed the part where Diedara gets owned by kakashi. True he didnt die but he still got owned.
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Old 2006-09-17, 19:39   Link #31
Yamatofruit
Sixth Hokage
 
 
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Location: US
I can't wait till Naruto fights an Akatsuki member. That'll be awesome. He'll go 9 tails on all their...butts.
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Old 2006-09-17, 20:53   Link #32
Zek
Eyebrows...
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamatofruit
I can't wait till Naruto fights an Akatsuki member. That'll be awesome. He'll go 9 tails on all their...butts.
I don't think Naruto will be growing any number of tails anymore. That's the whole purpose behind his current training.

Besides, most Akatsuki members wouldn't be able to handle him at maybe 5 tails. I suspect that if he ever grew 9, Kyuubi's seal would break.
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Old 2006-09-17, 21:08   Link #33
gibits
Endless
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I
Kisame with his realistic clone took on Gai and the others assuming that he would have still won. But, he lost. What does that mean? When he is in the warfield (maybe even in general), he is "incapable" of judging his opponents' strength and rush forward like a mentally-incapable animal without considering the consequences based on a sole assumption that his opponents cannot beat him. What does that imply? He will soon be defeated by people he would consider to be weaker than him.
That's not a fair assessment of the fight. Kisame was only at 33% and was manhandling the whole team. Gai had use 6 gates just to beat Kisame at 1/3 of his strength. If that was really Kisame at 100% then I think its safe to assume that Kisame would've not only won, but in dominating fashion.

It's not an assumpstion that he can't beat Gai, the facts show that he clearly can beat him, and his whole team if he really showed up. And it really baffles me why Kisame and Itachi didn't just march in and take Naruto, they were perfectly able to do that as they were owning Leaf's finest. Jiraya might have proved a bit of a challage (no Tsunade) but really....
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Old 2006-09-17, 21:12   Link #34
Yamatofruit
Sixth Hokage
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: US
So basically, everyone in Akatsuki are either almost Kage level or already at Kage level?
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Old 2006-09-17, 21:22   Link #35
Sazelyt
F i n
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
That's not a fair assessment of the fight. Kisame was only at 33% and was manhandling the whole team. Gai had use 6 gates just to beat Kisame at 1/3 of his strength. If that was really Kisame at 100% then I think its safe to assume that Kisame would've not only won, but in dominating fashion.

It's not an assumpstion that he can't beat Gai, the facts show that he clearly can beat him, and his whole team if he really showed up. And it really baffles me why Kisame and Itachi didn't just march in and take Naruto, they were perfectly able to do that as they were owning Leaf's finest. Jiraya might have proved a bit of a challage (no Tsunade) but really....
I wasn't talking about what I think about who is stronger. I was talking about Kisame's inability of making accurate decisions in terms of the opponent's strength. That also means his judgments (of, I can beat him, let me fight, I will crush him, etc...) cannot be highly reliable.

Also, regarding Kisame-Gai fight, I think Kisame would have died together with Gai, meaning that he couldn't beat Gai and stay alive. Regardless of how Kisame could have fought against Gai, as long as Gai is capable of achieving Hokage level strength, he wouldn't go down without taking the opponent down with him.

Lastly, regarding Itachi's judgment, he didn't assume a clear win (and on the contrary, he might have assumed a big loss) against Konoha forces, and that is why he didn't jump into the middle of the ring, shouting I am here, come fight me.
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Old 2006-09-17, 21:34   Link #36
gibits
Endless
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I wasn't talking about what I think about who is stronger. I was talking about Kisame's inability of making accurate decisions in terms of the opponent's strength. That also means his judgments (of, I can beat him, let me fight, I will crush him, etc...) cannot be highly reliable.
I guess I would disargee with you on this because I think its very resonable for Kisame to think he could beat Gai. I think he made a reasonable judgement when he felt that he could take Team Gai. His clone was certainly doing a good job against them, and that was only at 33%.

Quote:
Also, regarding Kisame-Gai fight, I think Kisame would have died together with Gai, meaning that he couldn't beat Gai and stay alive. Regardless of how Kisame could have fought against Gai, as long as Gai is capable of achieving Hokage level strength, he wouldn't go down without taking the opponent down with him.
I think it's safe to assume that all Akasuki are at, if not exceed kage level. For Christ sake Sasori had the 3rd Kazekage ("by far the strongest") as his puppet!
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Old 2006-09-17, 21:48   Link #37
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
I guess I would disargee with you on this because I think its very resonable for Kisame to think he could beat Gai. I think he made a reasonable judgement when he felt that he could take Team Gai. His clone was certainly doing a good job against them, and that was only at 33%.


I think it's safe to assume that all Akasuki are at, if not exceed kage level. For Christ sake Sasori had the 3rd Kazekage ("by far the strongest") as his puppet!
The assumption of beating Gai at full power and at 1/3 power are totally different. Also, Kisame's clone was like a paper doll against Gai at 6th Gate.

Like Itachi said, every strong opponent has a weakness. And you don't have to be an Hokage to exploit that. That Sasori, who is assumed to be stronger than 3rd Kazekage, and who used the most powerful technique of the 3rd in his fight, lost to two lower level opponents.
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Old 2006-09-17, 22:02   Link #38
Zek
Eyebrows...
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I wasn't talking about what I think about who is stronger. I was talking about Kisame's inability of making accurate decisions in terms of the opponent's strength. That also means his judgments (of, I can beat him, let me fight, I will crush him, etc...) cannot be highly reliable.
But Kisame's judgement was right, based on the level of power shown by Team Gai when he first arrived. He couldn't have known that Gai had the ability to open 6 gates, and before that he was dominating all 4 of them.
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Old 2006-09-17, 22:16   Link #39
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zek
But Kisame's judgement was right, based on the level of power shown by Team Gai when he first arrived. He couldn't have known that Gai had the ability to open 6 gates, and before that he was dominating all 4 of them.
The judgment you were talking about was wrong at the end, and I think that is what matters, not the initial inaccurate judgment.

Kisame's way of judgment is no different than us saying the initial Kisame we met at the first part was no big deal at all. Do you consider such a decision making process a good one or a bad one? For me it is a bad one.
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Old 2006-09-17, 22:20   Link #40
astayanax
Conspiracy Theorist
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Itachi used, his most powerful weapon, MS, on all the Konoha ninjas there, and if Kakashi wouldn't have noticed that they would have all died. So much for not intending to harm Konoha ninjas, I guess killing does not count as giving harm for you.
A few things:

- Itachi didn't use MS on Kurenai and Asuma; he only used it on Kakashi and only because he wanted to show Kakashi the true power of the Sharingan. Kakashi made an err in judgement thinking that he wanted to use it on the others.

- Itachi could had killed Kakashi anytime he wished; but he didn't. Even Kakashi was surprised before he lost consciousness.

- If left alone, Itachi was simply going to walk away with Kisame. However, they got forced into a fight... by multiple people.


Kisame is not the sort of ninja to make rational judgements; but lets be realistic here. Gai is not going to beat Kisame without using all 8 gates and sacrificing his life... and even then he may only leave Kisame crippled instead of dead. I personally think Kisame did well in his confrontation against team Gai considering his orders and the fact he was in a clone.
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