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Old 2006-09-17, 22:36   Link #41
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
A few things:

- Itachi didn't use MS on Kurenai and Asuma; he only used it on Kakashi and only because he wanted to show Kakashi the true power of the Sharingan. Kakashi made an err in judgement thinking that he wanted to use it on the others.

- Itachi could had killed Kakashi anytime he wished; but he didn't. Even Kakashi was surprised before he lost consciousness.

- If left alone, Itachi was simply going to walk away with Kisame. However, they got forced into a fight... by multiple people.
- Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes closed. If they had kept their eyes opened, anything could have happened.

- Itachi maybe couldn't have killed Kakashi, even if he wanted, and maybe that is why Kakashi survived.

- At the end, they were also forced into the fight by Gai, but they fleed. They could have done that earlier, if Itachi had really intended to not give harm to the Konoha forces.
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Old 2006-09-17, 22:56   Link #42
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
A few things:

- Itachi didn't use MS on Kurenai and Asuma; he only used it on Kakashi and only because he wanted to show Kakashi the true power of the Sharingan. Kakashi made an err in judgement thinking that he wanted to use it on the others.

- Itachi could had killed Kakashi anytime he wished; but he didn't. Even Kakashi was surprised before he lost consciousness.

- If left alone, Itachi was simply going to walk away with Kisame. However, they got forced into a fight... by multiple people.
Adding to Sazelyt's argument:

- MS didn't affect Kurenai and Asuma only because Kakashi told them to close their eyes, otherwise they would've been trapped as well

- Before MS, he attempted to stab Kakashi in the back, but it was a mizu bunshin. And he wasn't sparing Kakashi out of kindness. He was trying to humilate and mentally break Kakashi to demonstrate his superior Sharingan. But then he still ordered Kisame to kill them all once Kakashi revealed his knowledge of Akatsuki

- Itachi didn't want to fight Kurenai and Asuma because he was on a mission which he quickly wanted to accomplish. He knew that he was vastly stronger than both of them so he simply wanted them out the way as quickly as possible. It's like dealing with flies outside, you don't bother to kill them if can just shoo them away.
Once he did engage them, his intention to kill was clear. He almost slit Kurenai's throat and he was about to kill her when Kakashi arrived, and almost killed her again with an exploding KB but Kakashi saved her once more.

I don't think there's anything moral or sympathetic about Itachi's aversion to killing. He's just a cold, calculating villain who avoids wasting time on opponents who he considers too far beneath him
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Old 2006-09-17, 23:04   Link #43
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
The judgment you were talking about was wrong at the end, and I think that is what matters, not the initial inaccurate judgment.

Kisame's way of judgment is no different than us saying the initial Kisame we met at the first part was no big deal at all. Do you consider such a decision making process a good one or a bad one? For me it is a bad one.
It wasn't inaccurate, Gai had to open 6 gates just to beat Kisame at 1/3 of his power. If Gai had to open 6 gates just (ie go well beyond 100%) just to beat Kisame at 33% then no it wasn't a "bad decision".

How many times do I have to say that fact? GAI HAD TO OPEN 6 FREAKING GATES JUST TO BEAT KISAME AT 33%! It's safe to say that if Kisame was 3 times more powerful Gai would be dead, no if and or buts. So no its not a bad judgement call. Kisame knew what he was up against and handled Team Gai (yes there was 4 of them if you don't remember) with overwhlelming force. The only way to break Kisame's dominance was to open 6 gates. Geez did I just repeat that again? Maybe you'll understand it this time.
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Old 2006-09-17, 23:15   Link #44
Sabaku Kyu
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I definitely understand your argument, but I don't think that Gai had to open the 6th gate to defeat the Kisame clone. He might've done so because it was the quickest way to defeat his enemy at the time. Don't forget, Gai was trying to protect his pupils and also was rushing to aid Naruto's group. Once he opened the 6th gate, the Kisame clone wasn't even a match, the defeat was almost instaneous. And even after the opening the 6th gate Gai didn't seem worn or fatigued in the slightest, suggesting that opening the 6th gate isn't even a trump-card attack for him. He'd probably open the 7th gate in a real fight and we don't know how much more powerful that would make him. For all we know, It could be two or three times more powerful than the sixth gate form. I'm not claiming that Gai would win in a fight with Kisame. I'm just saying there is evidence to suggest that Kisame wouldn't have a clear-cut victory.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-09-17 at 23:30.
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Old 2006-09-17, 23:23   Link #45
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Maybe I should also repeat what I said.

Kisame's 1/3 clone became nothing more than a paper doll against Gai at 6th gate. And I do not look at the situation like Gai had to open 6 gates just to kill that clone - especially if there is a huge power gap between the opponents at the end.

Just consider the following case, and make your judgment: If Itachi had killed Kakashi with MS, would you look at the situation as Itachi had to use MS just to kill Kakashi, or would you prefer to say Itachi used MS to finish the fight as quickly as possible?

Also, opening gates is not much different than using MS, especially for someone who has mastered that - extracting high concentration of chakra in a short period. He is not borrowing power from a demon, he is using his "own power".
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Old 2006-09-17, 23:48   Link #46
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You're talking in circles, what you say when Kisame wins? Would you still say that he didn't have a good grasp on his oppenents' strengths? Plenty of people fight others with confidence, why does Kisame get beef for it? He was confident in his abilities and he has good reason to. You have yet to show me how he erred in judgement.

Why did Gai have to open the gates? Because he was about to get killed by Kisame's water shark trap, and was forced to use it. He specificly said "I guess I have no choice" which means he was forced to open his gates.

Opening gates already is going over capacity, I'm not saying its cheap (don't know where you got that idea from) but it does show that Gai had to go all out (ie was forced to use it).

I don't really see your point about Itachi. You're saying he's a careful guy? Then why did his clone lose to Team Kakashi is 3 moves? Yeah that's a real good judge of abilities...... Itachi should've snatched Naruto when he had a chance, if anything he's TOO careful (or just lazy). But I understand that the good guys were spared for plot purposes....
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Old 2006-09-18, 00:16   Link #47
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If Kisame always make the assumption about his opponents whom he know nothing about, his decision will amount to nothing more than a modified-dice throw. You are asking about the error in his judgment, and you have the best example in his fight and loss against Gai. He was very confident that he could win, but he lost.

Regarding the gate part, I am merely saying Gai using that move doesn't mean Gai at that level is almost equal to Kisame 1/3 power clone. You are making it seem like Gai at 6th gate is almost equal to 1/3 clone of Kisame. I don't think that is the case, and that is why I gave MS example.

Sometimes using a very good move to finish your opponent as quickly as possible does not mean that move brings you only close to your opponent, or that move only works on opponents at the level. On the contrary, you might have exceeded the required power to beat your opponent with that technique, hence you might have achieved similar result even against more power opponents.
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Old 2006-09-18, 03:59   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
If Itachi had killed Kakashi with MS, would you look at the situation as Itachi had to use MS just to kill Kakashi, or would you prefer to say Itachi used MS to finish the fight as quickly as possible?
Neither. Itachi noticed Kakashi was proud of his Sharingan, so he used MS to him in his place.

Last edited by Yellow Flash; 2006-09-18 at 04:21.
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Old 2006-09-18, 10:42   Link #49
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
If Kisame always make the assumption about his opponents whom he know nothing about, his decision will amount to nothing more than a modified-dice throw. You are asking about the error in his judgment, and you have the best example in his fight and loss against Gai. He was very confident that he could win, but he lost.

Regarding the gate part, I am merely saying Gai using that move doesn't mean Gai at that level is almost equal to Kisame 1/3 power clone. You are making it seem like Gai at 6th gate is almost equal to 1/3 clone of Kisame. I don't think that is the case, and that is why I gave MS example.

Sometimes using a very good move to finish your opponent as quickly as possible does not mean that move brings you only close to your opponent, or that move only works on opponents at the level. On the contrary, you might have exceeded the required power to beat your opponent with that technique, hence you might have achieved similar result even against more power opponents.
Itchi lost also. By your logic then Itachi was also lacking in judgement.....

Gai with 6 gates open might blow away Kisame at 1/3, but can you still say that if Kisame was 3 times more powerful? Keep in mind Gai was about to be killed by Kisame at 33%. No i don't think you can say that.
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Old 2006-09-18, 11:28   Link #50
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
Neither. Itachi noticed Kakashi was proud of his Sharingan, so he used MS to him in his place.
What you replied is correct for a big part but at the same time Itachi DID want to settle things as quickly as possible...

His words were enough to assume such a thing...he didnt want Kisame to fight because whole Konoha would notice their pressence..

The longer we fight the more Konoha Shinobi will appear...

Gai: until the ANBU reinforcements that i arranged for arrival we will fight them...
Itachi: Kisame...we're leaving...(they were aware that Jiraiya was somewhere in Konoha)
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Old 2006-09-18, 11:39   Link #51
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
Itchi lost also. By your logic then Itachi was also lacking in judgement.....

Gai with 6 gates open might blow away Kisame at 1/3, but can you still say that if Kisame was 3 times more powerful? Keep in mind Gai was about to be killed by Kisame at 33%. No i don't think you can say that.
Itachi is usually cautious, and avoid making such comments.

For your question, no I cannot say, and that is why such comparison will not be healthy. In a battle between very strong opponents, usually your strongest techniques determine the winner/loser. And Gai at 6th gate is definitely not at his strongest level, such as Kisame at 1/3 strength (also, Kisame's clone was using his basic chakra-sucking weapon in the way it was supposed to be used, so he might be using more strength than he was supposed to be at 1/3 level).

Also, you are right, Gai before opening the gates was in a bad situation, just like Deidera against Gaara before using his most powerful weapon.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:15   Link #52
astayanax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
- Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes closed. If they had kept their eyes opened, anything could have happened.
Not really. Itachi stated what he wanted to do and he did it. As a matter of fact, the only reason Asuma and Kurenai had their eye closed was because Kakashi incorrectly thought that Itachi was going to attack them all; just like how he incorrectly thought that his sharingan would give him protection against the MS.

Quote:
- Itachi maybe couldn't have killed Kakashi, even if he wanted, and maybe that is why Kakashi survived.
You really believe that after seeing all MS jutsus?

Quote:
- At the end, they were also forced into the fight by Gai, but they fleed. They could have done that earlier, if Itachi had really intended to not give harm to the Konoha forces.
They managed to flee because the people there were pre-occupied (primarily with the safety of Kakashi) unlike before when there was nothing stopping Kurenai, Asuma and Kakashi from chasing Itachi and Kisame half way across the Naruto World.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:16   Link #53
Yellow Flash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5
What you replied is correct for a big part but at the same time Itachi DID want to settle things as quickly as possible...

His words were enough to assume such a thing...he didnt want Kisame to fight because whole Konoha would notice their pressence..

The longer we fight the more Konoha Shinobi will appear...

Gai: until the ANBU reinforcements that i arranged for arrival we will fight them...
Itachi: Kisame...we're leaving...(they were aware that Jiraiya was somewhere in Konoha)
I believe Itachi could have end it quickly either way. I mean, he killed the Uchiha clan in one night and didn't use the Mangekyou Sharingan, just his sword, kunai, shuriken and maybe a few jutsu. I don't think it was needed to defeat Kakashi, it was to prove something to Kakashi because he has the Sharingan but lack the Uchiha blood.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:25   Link #54
astayanax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
Adding to Sazelyt's argument:

- MS didn't affect Kurenai and Asuma only because Kakashi told them to close their eyes, otherwise they would've been trapped as well
We don't know if the MS genjutsu of Itachi affects multiple people especially the way it had been done every single time is against one person. The mere fact the the MS user has to gaze into the eyes of his victims heavily implies it can only work on one person. Like I was saying above, Kakashi had monitored the situation; sensed that Itachi was going to do something, and made a judgement in error.

Quote:
- Before MS, he attempted to stab Kakashi in the back, but it was a mizu bunshin. And he wasn't sparing Kakashi out of kindness. He was trying to humilate and mentally break Kakashi to demonstrate his superior Sharingan. But then he still ordered Kisame to kill them all once Kakashi revealed his knowledge of Akatsuki
Kakashi knowing about Akatsuki was detrimental to the organization's goals. I could understand why Itachi wanted to kill them then; but what I don't understand was why they ran when Gai showed up. If he really wanted them dead, reinforcements would had never made it in time. Perhaps a plot device.

Quote:
Once he did engage them, his intention to kill was clear. He almost slit Kurenai's throat and he was about to kill her when Kakashi arrived, and almost killed her again with an exploding KB but Kakashi saved her once more.
We don't know if his intention to kill was clear. Personally, I think he was just playing around with them. The speed Itachi was using to charge to Kurenai was nowhere close to his true speed; and the kick he gave her afterwards was done without a second thought (aka no effort) had sent her flying.

On the other hand, I am sure Kisame wanted to kill them from the start; but he was on a leash so to speak.

Quote:
I don't think there's anything moral or sympathetic about Itachi's aversion to killing. He's just a cold, calculating villain who avoids wasting time on opponents who he considers too far beneath him
If that is true, then he would consider Jiraiya the same way since he did the same thing.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:31   Link #55
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
We don't know if the MS genjutsu of Itachi affects multiple people especially the way it had been done every single time is against one person. The mere fact the the MS user has to gaze into the eyes of his victims heavily implies it can only work on one person. Like I was saying above, Kakashi had monitored the situation; sensed that Itachi was going to do something, and made a judgement in error.
I think is has to do with the fact on what Kakashi mentioned when He was explaining to Chiyo about MS. Given that Tsukoumy works so fast, he can do it to 3 people and it could look as if he did it to this 3 person at the same time.

I still donít think Kakashi had a very clear idea what was going to Happen when He ordered Asuma and Kurenai to close theyr eyes..
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:35   Link #56
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
Not really. Itachi stated what he wanted to do and he did it. As a matter of fact, the only reason Asuma and Kurenai had their eye closed was because Kakashi incorrectly thought that Itachi was going to attack them all; just like how he incorrectly thought that his sharingan would give him protection against the MS.

You really believe that after seeing all MS jutsus?

They managed to flee because the people there were pre-occupied (primarily with the safety of Kakashi) unlike before when there was nothing stopping Kurenai, Asuma and Kakashi from chasing Itachi and Kisame half way across the Naruto World.
- Itachi didn't specifically state that he will do it, and neither Asuma nor Kurenai was informed on that previously. As it was mentioned previously, if they hadn't closed their eyes, anything could have happened. Tsukiyomi is not a joke. And Kakashi thought correctly, if he hadn't had the Sharingan he would have definitely died, but he survived because he had Sharingan.

- Yes, I really do believe that after seeing how much Kakashi's body is capable of using a transplanted-Sharingan.

- If those Hokage level Akatsuki members cannot flee from two merely jounins, then they and their rankings should be nothing more than a joke. And at the beginning there was no Kakashi.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:44   Link #57
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
- If those Hokage level Akatsuki members cannot flee from two merely jounins, then they and their rankings should be nothing more than a joke. And at the beginning there was no Kakashi.
Didnt Itachi flee because he was already tired after using MS????
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Old 2006-09-18, 14:43   Link #58
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Itachi is usually cautious, and avoid making such comments.

For your question, no I cannot say, and that is why such comparison will not be healthy. In a battle between very strong opponents, usually your strongest techniques determine the winner/loser. And Gai at 6th gate is definitely not at his strongest level, such as Kisame at 1/3 strength (also, Kisame's clone was using his basic chakra-sucking weapon in the way it was supposed to be used, so he might be using more strength than he was supposed to be at 1/3 level).

Also, you are right, Gai before opening the gates was in a bad situation, just like Deidera against Gaara before using his most powerful weapon.
If you're gonna base your arguement on Kisame losing to establish that he is cocky or hotheaded then you can't really say that Itachi is a catious person.... I mean can you see how silly the permise of your statements are?

Kisame lost to Team Gai, not because he underestimated them but because at 33%, Team Gai was just plain better. Itachi also said very clearly: "Naruto, you're coming with me" yet it didn't turn that way. Guess by your logic, Itachi is just as cocky as Kisame. Just what comments did Kisame say that are out of thin air? He said he could beat Gai, and all signs say that he can not only beat Gai but his whole team as well.

You can say that Gai had not shown his full power, I would believe that. But Gai is certainly using more than 33% to defeat Kisame at 33%. No doubt about it. So again Kisame has good reason to think that he could beat Team Gai.

I don't know what you mean by "using more strength than he was supposed to be at 1/3 level". The leader used 1/3 of Kisame's chakra and put it in a clone. How would he somehow have more chakra than that? Please enlighten me in that regard.

Kimase 33% > Gai 33%
Kisame 33% < Gai 66%-80%
Kisame 100% > Gai 100%

See the math? Gai has about 20%-33.3% of hidden potential left while Kisame
has a healthy 66% potential, that's more than twice of Gai. Why you hating on Kisame? He's just doing his job and kicking ass, because he knows he can (and he does oh so well).
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Old 2006-09-18, 15:42   Link #59
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
I believe Itachi could have end it quickly either way. I mean, he killed the Uchiha clan in one night and didn't use the Mangekyou Sharingan, just his sword, kunai, shuriken and maybe a few jutsu. I don't think it was needed to defeat Kakashi, it was to prove something to Kakashi because he has the Sharingan but lack the Uchiha blood.
I am not so sure about (bold part) that..

I know that that's what it looked like but i doubt that the Uchiha Clan would just die from shurikens and kunai's...(besides Itachi cant carry that much tools and his chakra is very limited) The Uchiha Clan had many (not all) who could use the Sharingan...and to avoid a shuriken wouldnt be very difficult with a Sharingan..

If you are correct (its possible) then the Uchiha Clan isnt worth so much (these days..Naruto's words)

But everytime this subject "Massacre of Uchiha Clan" is discussed i doubt that Itachi has done it...afterall Itachi never said that he did kill the clan...people (including Kisame) HEARD it...as in a rumor...

He was definetly there...but there is no proof that he actually did it...Tsukyomi is a genjutsu afterall...
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Old 2006-09-18, 16:20   Link #60
gibits
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D00d Itachi DID kill his his clan. He admitted to it when Sasuke questioned him, what else do you need to tell you that he did? Maybe he had some help (doubtfu) but he certainly did do the killing.

You doubt that the Uchiha clan could be offed in that fashion, but maybe Itachi is just that strong. Not all Uchiha are super ninjas, just look at Orbito.

In sum Itachi, without a doubt did kill his clan. I'm sure there is more to the story (like why he did it) but the blood is definatly on his hands (literally and figurativily). It's not a rumor its a fact that was confirmed by others and Itachi himself, how have you been deluding yourself this whole time?
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