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Old 2006-09-18, 16:26   Link #61
Sazelyt
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
If you're gonna base your arguement on Kisame losing to establish that he is cocky or hotheaded then you can't really say that Itachi is a catious person.... I mean can you see how silly the permise of your statements are?
Yes, I am going to base my argument on Kisame at 1/3 strength losing to Gai after assuming that he can win in such a situation. I don't think I have seen similar statements from Itachi. I consider a person cautious if that person does not automatically assume he can beat an opponent on whom he has no information.

Quote:
Kisame lost to Team Gai, not because he underestimated them but because at 33%, Team Gai was just plain better. Itachi also said very clearly: "Naruto, you're coming with me" yet it didn't turn that way. Guess by your logic, Itachi is just as cocky as Kisame. Just what comments did Kisame say that are out of thin air? He said he could beat Gai, and all signs say that he can not only beat Gai but his whole team as well.
If I heard what Kisame said from Itachi, I would have thought the same thing. And I do not consider Itachi's comments having a similar air around them. For me, his comment at that time is no different than his comments when he first met Naruto, meaning putting Naruto in a situation where he can take him with him (such as "Naruto-kun you are coming with me, so be quiet and sit down...").

Quote:
You can say that Gai had not shown his full power, I would believe that. But Gai is certainly using more than 33% to defeat Kisame at 33%. No doubt about it. So again Kisame has good reason to think that he could beat Team Gai.

I don't know what you mean by "using more strength than he was supposed to be at 1/3 level". The leader used 1/3 of Kisame's chakra and put it in a clone. How would he somehow have more chakra than that? Please enlighten me in that regard.

Kimase 33% > Gai 33%
Kisame 33% < Gai 66%-80%
Kisame 100% > Gai 100%

See the math? Gai has about 20%-33.3% of hidden potential left while Kisame
has a healthy 66% potential, that's more than twice of Gai. Why you hating on Kisame? He's just doing his job and kicking ass, because he knows he can (and he does oh so well).
We really don't know the amount of strength Gai gains compared to not opening gates with each opened gate. Maybe opening the 8th Gate will make him 10 times more powerful than his initial level, and maybe 3-4 times more powerful than his level at the 6th gate. Nobody knows that. And even if you can make such a comparison, as long as the weaker one has a technique that overpowers the most powerful technique of the stronger opponent, the strength of the stronger may not help him win or survive.

For the enlightenment part, I was talking about Kisame's weapon. Weapons are a part of ninja's strength. If that weapon corresponds to 1/10 of his strength, and the weapon clone used was an exact copy of his original weapon, then the strength he actually used would be more than 1/3.
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Old 2006-09-18, 16:36   Link #62
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5
If you are correct (its possible) then the Uchiha Clan isnt worth so much (these days..Naruto's words)
Kakshi also said that after Sasuke and NAruto were beaten by Sakura in the tree walking Training.
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Old 2006-09-18, 16:55   Link #63
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Yes, I am going to base my argument on Kisame at 1/3 strength losing to Gai after assuming that he can win in such a situation. I don't think I have seen similar statements from Itachi. I consider a person cautious if that person does not automatically assume he can beat an opponent on whom he has no information.
You contradict yourself here. Itachi has made statements like: "Naruto you're coming with me". Unless you think he didn't mean it (I mean it is only like his reason for living atm) then Itachi was being cocky as well. The fact is Kisame had more reason to be confident in taking on Gai than Itachi had with taking on Kakashi and Naruto (beaten in 3 moves).

Quote:
If I heard what Kisame said from Itachi, I would have thought the same thing. And I do not consider Itachi's comments having a similar air around them. For me, his comment at that time is no different than his comments when he first met Naruto, meaning putting Naruto in a situation where he can take him with him (such as "Naruto-kun you are coming with me, so be quiet and sit down...").
Why do you have a problem with Kisame being confident in his skills? In fact he has shown to fare better with his oppenents than Itachi has.

After retreating from Jiraya, I recall him saying to to Itachi" "Why are we retreating? If it was just me I might not be able to beat him (Jiraya), but you...." It sounds like someone who knows his limits and even defers to Itachi (even though from what I've seen Itachi doesn't really deserve it). I'll try to find that panel but I really think you're being very unfair to Kisame labeling him as a mindless beast. He's confident in his abilities, he has good reason to be. Let him be.
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Old 2006-09-18, 17:09   Link #64
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
You contradict yourself here. Itachi has made statements like: "Naruto you're coming with me". Unless you think he didn't mean it (I mean it is only like his reason for living atm) then Itachi was being cocky as well. The fact is Kisame had more reason to be confident in taking on Gai than Itachi had with taking on Kakashi and Naruto (beaten in 3 moves).

Why do you have a problem with Kisame being confident in his skills? In fact he has shown to fare better with his oppenents than Itachi has.
I am not contradicting myself, the way the plan is expressed is very different in both cases. Also let's not forget no one enters a fight to lose. If you want to compare Itachi and Kisame, I think Itachi has more reasons to be confident, cause he has already beaten Kakashi. But that is nowhere near the case for Kisame and Gai.

Lastly, even the quote you give shows how much mindless Kisame is. After Itachi using MS 3 times, he still assumed they can take on Jiraiya, whereas Itachi decided to flee. I think that simple example shows the difference between very clearly.

Kisame feels the gap of mindless beast strong character the story needs. And, even though I do not personally enjoy his character, I am glad he has such character, which will definitely be the reason for his future death.
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Old 2006-09-18, 17:32   Link #65
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I am not contradicting myself, the way the plan is expressed is very different in both cases. Also let's not forget no one enters a fight to lose. If you want to compare Itachi and Kisame, I think Itachi has more reasons to be confident, cause he has already beaten Kakashi. But that is nowhere near the case for Kisame and Gai.

Lastly, even the quote you give shows how much mindless Kisame is. After Itachi using MS 3 times, he still assumed they can take on Jiraiya, whereas Itachi decided to flee. I think that simple example shows the difference between very clearly.

Kisame feels the gap of mindless beast strong character the story needs. And, even though I do not personally enjoy his character, I am glad he has such character, which will definitely be the reason for his future death.
So you're saying that Itachi is careful because he wasted 2 MSs (when was the 3rd?) on people he was clearly dominating when Jiraiya was standing right in front of him?

So Kakashi and Naruto "surprised" Itachi while Kisame miscalculated? You're just being biased. You could easily say that Kisame was surprised by Gai's gate opening as well.

He thought he could take team Gai, just like Itachi thought he could take Team Kakashi. They are strong, they have every reason to be sure in themselves. Just admit that you are biased against Kiasme, this has nothing to do with Itachi. They both get (more or less) the same results, but you choose to bash Kisame because by your own admission you don't like him.

If you just said it like instead of trying to justify yourself with such nonsense then I would respect your opinion (because that's what it is) more. Instead you're trying to prove something that isn't. You're entitled to your opinions but give credit where its due. Kisame outperformed Itachi please get that in your fanboy head.

I'm not a Kiasame fan either (what an ugly character design a shark head WTF?) but he really was dominating team Gai when compared to Itachi, and I've gots to respect that.
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Old 2006-09-18, 17:39   Link #66
Rurik
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Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
After retreating from Jiraya, I recall him saying to to Itachi" "Why are we retreating? If it was just me I might not be able to beat him (Jiraya), but you...." It sounds like someone who knows his limits and even defers to Itachi (even though from what I've seen Itachi doesn't really deserve it). I'll try to find that panel but I really think you're being very unfair to Kisame labeling him as a mindless beast. He's confident in his abilities, he has good reason to be. Let him be.
To help you out, the panels you are talking about are in Chapter 148 page 07, (the retreat part) In terms of scan if very likeley you wont find a correct translation of it, I will point you out the most accurate translation of this Panels:

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost...04&postcount=4

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJT
何故退く必要が・・・
Why do we need to retreat?

アナタなら・・・
You could (*note it would end in *handle them* or something like that)
今のナルトなら焦る必要は・・・ない
The way naruto is now, there is no need to rush.

それに俺も当分は一所で・・・体を・・・休めなくてはならない
Plus I need to rest for a bit.*2

月読はおろか天照まで使わされてはな
After all, "Tsukuyomi" was bad enough... But now I've been forced to use even "Amaterasu"...
Then another part about defeating JIraiya is mentioned in Chapter 144 page 09:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJT
Chapter 144 Page 9
アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ分かりませんよ・・・
I don't know about me, but I'm pretty sure that you could have handled him.

次元が違う。
He's good. (lit would be he's a higher level than me)

ああ・・・
hmmm
やり合えば二人共殺されるか
We would either both be killed or
よくて相打ちというところ
It would be a draw.

たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう
It wouldn't matter if we went in with more people or not.

ラーメン屋でやっと見つけてはいいが・・・
We're lucky to have finally spotted him at the Ramen shop but

お守り が あの伝説の三忍とは
His guard is one of the "legendary 3 ninja's."
彼が相手では木ノ葉のうちは一族も霧の忍び刀人衆の名もかすんでしまう
Having him as our opponet would make us look like nothing.*1
ああしかし・・・・
hmmm, but....
どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ・・・
No matter how strong the opponet is there is a weak spot.
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Old 2006-09-18, 17:50   Link #67
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
So you're saying that Itachi is careful because he wasted 2 MSs (when was the 3rd?) on people he was clearly dominating when Jiraiya was standing right in front of him?

So Kakashi and Naruto "surprised" Itachi while Kisame miscalculated? You're just being biased. You could easily say that Kisame was surprised by Gai's gate opening as well.

He thought he could take team Gai, just like Itachi thought he could take Team Kakashi. They are strong, they have every reason to be sure in themselves. Just admit that you are biased against Kiasme, this has nothing to do with Itachi. They both get (more or less) the same results, but you choose to bash Kisame because by your own admission you don't like him.

If you just said it like instead of trying to justify yourself with such nonsense then I would respect your opinion (because that's what it is) more. Instead you're trying to prove something that isn't. You're entitled to your opinions but give credit where its due. Kisame outperformed Itachi please get that in your fanboy head.

I'm not a Kiasame fan either (what an ugly character design a shark head WTF?) but he really was dominating team Gai when compared to Itachi, and I've gots to respect that.
Since you insist on hearing cases to see the difference between two, let us continue.

I used your example to show the difference between them - I think that was the clearest example. Their approaches are different. Imagine if Itachi wouldn't have stopped Kisame, how many times he would have brought them to the edge of death (yes, death)?

Itachi is careful because he was the one who gave the decision on fleeing in both cases, whereas Kisame is the one who would have preferred to continue the fight without giving a consideration on the risks (that is what is called as being a mindless beast - acting without thinking). (3MS on the same day = Tsukiyomi on Kakashi + Tsukiyomi on Sasuke + Amaterasu on Jiraiya's jutsu).

I am not going to admit that I am biased against Kisame the way you think. He is a brain-mutated beast-shaped human-masked creature. He will do what his beasty instincts tell him to do.

Regarding fanboy status, I neither like Itachi nor Kisame. Truthfully, I don't like any of the bad characters, I can only respect the strength that is all. They shouldn't expect any love from me, cause they won't receive any.
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Old 2006-09-18, 17:52   Link #68
gibits
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Thanks Rurik i was wondering how much I would have to flip through just for that.
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Old 2006-09-18, 18:01   Link #69
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I am not going to admit that I am biased against Kisame the way you think. He is a brain-mutated beast-shaped human-masked creature. He will do what his beasty instincts tell him to do.
There is another character that shares the same featureas as Kisame, that's Naruto, he would do what his beasty instincts tell him to do, guess we can call him "brain-mutated beast-shaped human-masked creature" Whatever that is.
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Old 2006-09-18, 18:06   Link #70
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
There is another character that shares the same featureas as Kisame, that's Naruto, he would do what his beasty instincts tell him to do, guess we can call him "brain-mutated beast-shaped human-masked creature" Whatever that is.
Not exactly. Naruto shares the same features only when he is Kyuubified. Normally, he just satisfies the first condition, brain-mutated part (which is most probably caused by being exposed to too much Kyuubi chakra for a long time).
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Old 2006-09-18, 18:38   Link #71
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Not exactly. Naruto shares the same features only when he is Kyuubified. Normally, he just satisfies the first condition, brain-mutated part (which is most probably caused by being exposed to too much Kyuubi chakra for a long time).
Well, He still got those features, even if not always, still, Im talking about the Making the wisest decision feature, weather it was Kyuby fault (wchi it is not most probably, just probably) is to late, he grew up with it, SO is already part of him.
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Old 2006-09-18, 19:39   Link #72
gibits
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"I don't know about me, but I'm pretty sure that you could have handled him."
Just that sentence alone shows that Kisame has a realistic view of his own limits, and not some "fight without regard to life and limb" type beast.

He wanted to stay in Leaf village and continue fighting because the Jounins there really a joke to him, as that fight proved. Why should he be afraid? When were Itachi and Kisame really in danger at all during that fight? Jiraiya is another matter but if Itachi didn't mess around with his lil' bro I think they had a good chance against him.
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Old 2006-09-18, 19:50   Link #73
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
"I don't know about me, but I'm pretty sure that you could have handled him."
Just that sentence alone shows that Kisame has a realistic view of his own limits, and not some "fight without regard to life and limb" type beast.
Yes, he is so realistic that he questioned leaving the place where Jiraiya is, even after seeing that Itachi used MS for three times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
He wanted to stay in Leaf village and continue fighting because the Jounins there really a joke to him, as that fight proved. Why should he be afraid? When were Itachi and Kisame really in danger at all during that fight? Jiraiya is another matter but if Itachi didn't mess around with his lil' bro I think they had a good chance against him.
So, Gai was also a joke for him, even though he should be capable of opening that much gates at that time also. I hope Kisame finds another Konoha joke as soon as possible. I would like to see his struggles towards survival against the jokes. Lastly, that fight didn't prove anything about the strength of Kisame or the strength of Konoha jounins against Kisame. It only proved Itachi, who was stronger than Kisame, was also stronger than the Konoha ninjas.

Also, you are saying you are not a Kisame fan, but I feel like discussing with his eternal-advocate.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:08   Link #74
gibits
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You said Kisame thought he could take on the world, that quote showed differently, simple as that. You're not giving credit were it is due, even when confronted with contradicting evidence. Itachi also misjudged his oppenents' power as well yet you say nothing about that. He also made cocky statements as well. but it just "didn't have the same air" (as you put it). You call that an agruement? "Oh I'm sorry just because Sazelyt didn't feel that "air" I guess he's right".

I could care less what you think about Kisame, if you don't like him then just say so insteed of sitting on your high horse and saying stuff that isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
And I do not consider Itachi's comments having a similar "air" around them.

Last edited by gibits; 2006-09-18 at 20:22.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:23   Link #75
Sazelyt
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I am not confronted with contradicting evidence. You should read the quotes more carefully before questioning whether someone is writing the correct things or not:

After tired Itachi, that has already used MS "three" times decides fleeing the scene,

Kisame : Why do we need to retreat? You could (*note it would end in *handle them* or something like that)

That is questioning Itachi's judgment. That is considering Jiraiya as if he is a regular ninja. If you don't want to accept that comment, say so. Forget about everything else, that evidence alone, supports Kisame's inability of judgment.

And, let me repeat my previous comment "I neither like Itachi nor Kisame".

May I suggest you a cloth to clean your eyeglasses? Cause I don't know what else can help in making you not miss any lines during reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
I could care less what you think about Kisame, if you don't like him then just say so insteed of sitting on your high horse and saying stuff that isn't true.
I took my previous comments back. I thought you were acting as an eternal Kisame advocate. Now, I feel like I am discussing with Kisame's online spirit.

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2006-09-18 at 20:35.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:36   Link #76
gibits
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I question Itachi's judgement. Why did he waste a MS on Sasuke when Jiraiya was right in front of him.....

The main point isn't that Kisame wanted to stay, but that he acknowledged that he couldn't beat Jiraiya. That was the point, which was the exact opposite of what you said. Just by saying means that he (duh) feels that Jiraiya is not ordinary ninja.

I read your posts just fine I just don't agree with them you pompous b1tch. What now your words are the word of God? Please. I just pointed out that you not as objective as you make yourself out to be, you might not like both characters but that doesn't mean not liking Itachi is inclusive with being objective.

As if someone who uses his "airs" to make arguements could ever be objective.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:45   Link #77
gibits
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Oh and you're not confronted with contradicting evidence. You're confronted with the same evidence and contradicting them.

Itachi and Kisame both lost (this is true)
Itachi and Kisame both were confident in winning (this is also true)
Itachi and Kisame both said things that showed they were confident in winning.

Kisame acknowledged that Jiraiya was better than him.
Itachi acknowledged that Jiraiya was better than him.

Yet somehow you twist the above mentioned things and assume a two completely different premises on way one is merely confident while the other is mindless.

Guess you didn't feel the "air" that time.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:47   Link #78
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
The main point isn't that Kisame wanted to stay, but that he acknowledged that he couldn't beat Jiraiya. That was the point, which was the exact opposite of what you said. Just by saying means that he (duh) feels that Jiraiya is not ordinary ninja.
A reminder for our careless friend:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sazelyt
Lastly, even the quote you give shows how much mindless Kisame is. After Itachi used MS 3 times, he still assumed they can take on Jiraiya, whereas Itachi decided to flee. I think that simple example shows the difference between very clearly.
Once again, in case you miss the previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sazelyt
Lastly, even the quote you give shows how much mindless Kisame is. After Itachi used MS 3 times, he still assumed they can take on Jiraiya, whereas Itachi decided to flee. I think that simple example shows the difference between very clearly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
I read your posts just fine I just don't agree with them you pompous b1tch. What now your words are the word of God? Please. I just pointed out that you not as objective as you make yourself out to be, you might not like both characters but that doesn't mean not liking Itachi is inclusive with being objective.

As if someone who uses his "airs" to make arguements could ever be objective.
Believe me, using "airs" to make argument is much better than using "nothing" as argument. And thank you for pointing that I am not objective, by repeating what I told many times before.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:57   Link #79
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Believe me, using "airs" to make argument is much better than using "nothing" as argument. And thank you for pointing that I am not objective, by repeating what I told many times before.

Wow first using emotions and subjective feeling don't work now it's quoting yourself? Well i can do the same:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
Itachi and Kisame both lost (this is true)
Itachi and Kisame both were confident in winning (this is also true)
Itachi and Kisame both said things that showed they were confident in winning.

Kisame acknowledged that Jiraiya was better than him.
Itachi acknowledged that Jiraiya was better than him.

Yet somehow you twist the above mentioned things and assume a two completely different premises on way one is merely confident while the other is mindless.
I guess you could call that "nothing". The fact is that there is evidence that you are wrong, you just choose to ignore it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
And thank you for pointing that I am not objective, by repeating what I told many times before.
Well if you admit that your not objective and that you base your statments on how you feel then there is something we agree on.
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Old 2006-09-18, 20:59   Link #80
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
Well if you admit that your not objective and that you base your statments on how you feel then there is something we agree on.
Yes, just like I admit that you are a wandering Kisame spirit.
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