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Old 2006-09-19, 15:00   Link #101
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
Please, the one given an order does not means is the one who can make the most logic decisions, he is just the one in charge. (Certain Presidents???)

As I said, and it seems you have hate this reallity, (And mock it also if you like):

“there are a lot of Variable you don’t control, don’t act as if your Opinion can be the only possible reason.”

So my opinions about why Kisame was asking about retreat are good as yours, the only difference is that mines don’t have a sense of hatred towards an specific Character.

That why I said you are giving to much benefit to Itachi, maybe the one who tough wrong was Itachi, and he is just a chicke,n which is was make him re-think doing something risky to a point where he will not do it.
Itachi is a proven genius. Need I say more on that? Do you need every person on the Naruto world say the same thing to see that? I think I have enough reason to give a higher value to Itachi's opinions compared to Kisame's opinions. And Kisame's final response only supports that not invalidates that. I am sorry to say that, but your counter-arguments are not powerful enough to shatter what I think on the subject be it objective or subjective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
Do I need to repeat quotes from me now?: -Kisame talked about Dangers of using the MS, he did not talk about “You know Itachi when you use 3 times MS in a day we have to retreat, even if I’m 100%”-

Not to mention, You avoided the point, You talked about Full powered Itachi, I pointed out your mistake, as you fanatically made emphasis, as it was 3, like this one:
Ok, let me ask you this. Why do you think MS has a danger of using? A hint: it uses too much chakra at a level to cause problems at the body of the person using. Your pointing out that observation gives more support to what I think. Even Itachi who has used one MS feels the need of being cautious, Itachi after 3 MS would be more cautious to flee the scene. What Kisame wants, refers to being more incautious to stay and drink sake with Jiraiya (!)... Can you decide who is more rational or logical at that point? Kisame or Itachi?

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Not only mines, but not even the other person Observations?,Zek was talking about Gai with 6 gates open and Gai + the entire Team Gai, and not Gai alone. I always referred to Gai without Opening Gates, Just as Kakashi did not need to use MS to fight Itachi and he only needed Narutos help to kill his Dummy.
Your quote that Zek used was fully consisting of your Gai is a joke comments. And his first sentence started with "To be fair, 6 gates did not appear to be a big deal for Gai, and he did absolutely decimate Kisame in that form.". Anyway, I am not going to defend for another person, his post is pretty clear.

Quote:
NO, If you are getting that impression read my posts again, I’m carefully separating Gai, and Gai after opening the 6 Gates, that why I have always said He was forced to open 6 Gates.
And why are you separating both cases. Is Itachi using MS a different version of Itachi? Even though the consequences are similar, this is not cursed seal we are talking about. He is using his own power without borrowing any external help. So, it has always been Gai. And your comments of "being forced to open 6 gates" does not change what you think onthe subject as "Rurik: Yes, I see Gai strength as a Joke- when I see a Full powered Gai been forced to almost do a Suicide Jutsu against one single Shinoby that was not even in half of his strength. To me Gai was just a Joke compared to Kisames powers."

Quote:
And no, You don’t know if a full power Kisame would had been defeated by 6 gates Gai, that you assumption based on your bias.
Yes, I don't know for sure whether Kisame can be defeated or not (just like I am not sure who can beat who in the class of Jiraiya, Oro, Tsunade, Itachi), but I know enough from the story that Gai who is "definitely" considered to be able to achieve Hokage level strength has the power to take down Kisame even if it costs his life.

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No, we don’t know enough to say the MS is the reason why Oro feels inferior to Itachi.
For me, it is 99% MS or maybe more, and if you can use such a percentage to represent a case, that means, you are given enough information to reach such a conclusion.

Quote:
About Gai, read the Manga we do know: His words before Opening the Gates: “there is no other way” So no, Gai alone could not defeat Kisame 1/3 without opening the gates.
We are talking about the same Gai, "the fool who thought he killed Kisame".

As I said many times before, in a fight, you can never know the result without actually living through the fight. He might have injured with that move, but that doesn't mean he couldn't beat Kisame afterwards.
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Old 2006-09-19, 15:30   Link #102
Rurik
Golden
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Itachi is a proven genius. Need I say more on that? Do you need every person on the Naruto world say the same thing to see that? I think I have enough reason to give a higher value to Itachi's opinions compared to Kisame's opinions. And Kisame's final response only supports that not invalidates that. I am sorry to say that, but your counter-arguments are not powerful enough to shatter what I think on the subject be it objective or subjective.
Ermmm, My arguments were in no way to shatters you Opinions, I have debated a lot against you, and you are very strong minded whit your Opinions – I don’t think I owould debate against you to try and convince otherwise .

I’m just showing you how your vision on things are not necessarily they only possible explanation, because there are a lot of thing we don’t know about why Kisame tough they could stay there and do whatever they could had done to get Naruto.

Itachi maybe made the most logical decision to save their lives, but maybe it was not the most logical decision to complete the Mission. (But I think it was the most logical decision regarding the mission given Itachi knew Naruto was not needed.) but still I don't think even Itachi wiht all of his genius capacitty can't be wrong sometimes.


Quote:
Ok, let me ask you this. Why do you think MS has a danger of using? A hint: it uses too much chakra at a level to cause problems at the body of the person using. Your pointing out that observation gives more support to what I think. Even Itachi who has used one MS feels the need of being cautious, Itachi after 3 MS would be more cautious to flee the scene. What Kisame wants to refers to being more incautious to stay and drink sake with Jiraiya... Can you decide who is more rational or logical at that point? Kisame or Itachi?
You are not getting my point, I’m not saying Kisame is clueless that Itachi Chakra consumption using MS, I’m talking about The Confidence Kisame had to take Naruto in a unknown matter (it could be fighting, it could be doing a Sexy No Jutsu) even after Itachi has done some Jutsus, That’s why I said that even If Itachi is weary to a point, it seems that Kisame still have fate that they could complete the mission.

Quote:
Your quote that Zek used was fully consisting of your Gai is a joke comments. And his first sentence started with "To be fair, 6 gates did not appear to be a big deal for Gai, and he did absolutely decimate Kisame in that form.". Anyway, I am not going to defend for another person, his post is pretty clear.
And yes, his post is really clear which I replied to be clearer that I’m talking about Gai and not Gai Opening 6 gates. As Zek was specific about that.

Quote:
And why are you separating both cases. Is Itachi using MS a different version of Itachi? Even though the consequences are similar, this is not cursed seal we are talking about. He is using his own power without borrowing any external help. So, it has always been Gai. And your comments of "being forced to open 6 gates" does not change what you think onthe subject as "Rurik: Yes, I see Gai strength as a Joke- when I see a Full powered Gai been forced to almost do a Suicide Jutsu against one single Shinoby that was not even in half of his strength. To me Gai was just a Joke compared to Kisames powers."
I’m not separating both cases, I’m making the comment on How Gai is forced to open Gates or Maximize the usage of His body to defeat a lesser form of Kisame, in my eyes, this means Gai Is just a Joke compared to Kisame, if he need to use such Move to defeat Kisame.

Quote:
Yes, I don't know for sure whether Kisame can be defeated or not (just like I am not sure who can beat who in the class of Jiraiya, Oro, Tsunade, Itachi), but I know enough from the story that Gai who is "definitely" considered to be able to achieve Hokage level strength has the power to take down Kisame even if it costs his life.
I agree with that.

Quote:
For me, it is 99% MS or maybe more, and if you can use such a percentage to represent a case, that means, you are given enough information to reach such a conclusion.
For me is also the MS, but I did not quiet get your sentence


Quote:
We are talking about the same Gai, "the fool who thought he killed Kisame".
That was supposed to be Joke, as I found that quote funny from that movie, I was not expecting people to take that seriously.

Quote:
As I said many times before, in a fight, you can never know the result without actually living through the fight. He might have injured with that move, but that doesn't mean he couldn't beat Kisame afterwards.
You are right about this, but I’m referring on how Gai still needs to relies of Gates to do so, it is his strength nonetheless. It seems from Gai quote that He could not do nothing unless Opening the Gates.

I got the feeling that Gai look lesser to Kisame, I mean what would you feel if The only way Lee could defeat Konohamaru is by opening 5 Gates?

And At the end almost everything we talked here, has nothing to do with Kisame been or not been A mindless beast. I think we Have reached a deadlock, at least These are enough replies for me regarding this topic.
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Old 2006-09-19, 17:36   Link #103
astayanax
Conspiracy Theorist
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Sazelyt and I don't agree on much; but I do share his views about Kisame. Personality wise, Kisame to me isn;t the sort of person who would sit down and make rational decisions. He is the type of individual that talks best with his sword. It is not to say that he is simple minded or slow; just that he destroys first think later. By contrast, Itachi is virtually the complete opposite of him to the extent where he ponders on just about everything and have backup plans to backup plans and also that combat would always be the last thing on his mind; even if his life is at stake. This complements each other.

From what we have seen:

- Kisame wanted to destroy Kurenai and Asuma from the get go. Itachi wanted them to live.
- Kisame wanted to destroy Kakashi at the get go. Itachi put him at his place (even though he still mocked Kakashi himself later)
- Kisame wanted to destroy Gai at the get go. However, Itachi told him to flee at the mention of backup coming (although this is a plothole since Itachi and Kisame could had easily wiped everyone in seconds).
- Kisame wanted to destroy Jiraiya at the get go as soon as he saw him although it wasn't as obvious. He was being revered at first but that was because of the legendary status preceding The sannin. Itachi knew better.

Post timeskip was a bit funny. Kisame (and Itachi's orders) were simply to delay Team Kakashi and Gai which I think they were doing. Of course, they had a little fun along the way. Now there is some who may disagree with that theory but it is a personal belief.
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Old 2006-09-22, 04:06   Link #104
Yellow Flash
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
As you said Kisame "feels" the opponents are a joke.
That is why he is a mindless beast acting on his "instincts", thanks for pointing out that.
False.

In fact Kisame is very good at estimating the opponent's strength.
He admitted that he can't beat Jiraiya, but that Itachi probably could.
Obviously he respect the Sannin, but he also knows what Itachi is capable of.

Quote:
Kisame before meeting with Jiraiya seemed to give importance to Jiraiya based on his status. But, after he met, he changed his opinion, and again tried to act on his instincts.
No, you just didn't get it. Kisame never wanted to fight Jiraiya.
He thought Itachi would take care of him, as they had agreed.
It was Itachi who changed his opinion and decided to retreat.

Quote:
Despite knowing that Itachi has used MS three times, he still questioned why they are retreating.
You are wrong, as Kisame was the one to warn Itachi he shouldn't use MS so many times.

Quote:
Of course, at the end, he acted as a tamed puppy of Itachi, but that is besides the point.
No, he respect Itachi because he is stronger, and one of the greatest genius.
Not to mention the Konoha is Itachi's home and Kyuubi Naruto is his jinchuuriki.

Quote:
Full powered Itachi and Kisame thought of distracting Jiraiya before taking Naruto with them, cause guess why? I got it... They just wanted to make a joke against a joke ninja so that they can laugh afterwards while drinking their sake.
They used this diversion because their mission was to capture Naruto, not to start a war.
But Kisame never believed that Jiraiya would be fooled by this, it was merely some test.
It is the same reason why they retreated when Gai arrived, though they would have won.
Kisame was confident to defeat Asuma, Kurenai and Gai because he can, he is that strong.
Itachi agreed and he said it is regrettable to retreat, but their mission was more important.

Last edited by Yellow Flash; 2006-09-22 at 04:24.
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Old 2006-09-22, 04:47   Link #105
gibits
Endless
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash


You are wrong, as Kisame was the one to warn Itachi he shouldn't use MS so many times.
You know i missed that one. Good find Yellow Flash.

The whole confrontation was a huge plot device that has generated alot of debate. It is believalbe that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi or Kisame. But both of them together? I doubt even Jiraiya is that strong. Regardless, Kisame still wanted to fight (like Saze said), but he also acknowledged that his strength was not enough to beat him.

astayanax: when you were reading/watching the fight b/w the jounin and Kisame and Itachi did you for once ever think that the jounin even had the slightest chance of winning? It's not like K&I were in "grave" danger. If anything you should say that Kisame had a good appraisal of the situation. He saw that he was kicking ass and wanted to continue.

Also about that "delay the enemy" order. Do you really think there is a better way to delay the enemy other than killing them? I'd say that will delay them for quite some time.
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Old 2006-09-22, 07:33   Link #106
Sabaku Kyu
The Ironman
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
It is believalbe that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi or Kisame. But both of them together? I doubt even Jiraiya is that strong. Regardless, Kisame still wanted to fight (like Saze said), but he also acknowledged that his strength was not enough to beat him.
Well of course Jiraiya's not stronger than Itachi since Itachi has already been stated to be above Orochimaru's level. It's just that at the time, Kisame and Itachi were at an disadvantage. Jiraiya had already executed a instaneously fatal and almost unescapable justu. Furthermore, Itachi was unable to execute an instaneous MS due to the strain of using it earlier. Only by running while at the same time concentrating to perform Amatersu were they able to escape. Now, if Itachi had stayed and tried to defeat Jiraiya with the MS, he might of succeded but there's a good chance he and Kisame would've had been crushed by the Frog Stomach as well. Hence his quote "At best, we also would have died" or something to that effect.

Quote:
when you were reading/watching the fight b/w the jounin and Kisame and Itachi did you for once ever think that the jounin even had the slightest chance of winning? It's not like K&I were in "grave" danger. If anything you should say that Kisame had a good appraisal of the situation. He saw that he was kicking ass and wanted to continue.
It's not that Kisame's appraisal of the situation wasn't accurate, it's just that Itachi was thinking like a shinobi. The motto of a shinobi is : "Accomplish the mission first, kick ass later". Would staying to fight the Konoha jounin have brought them any closer to their goal of capturing Naruto? Not really, so why bother? Also don't forget that Jiraiya was still in the village at the time, if he would've been allowed to join with the Konoha jonin and ANBU members there's a chance Kisame and Itachi would've been defeated.
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Old 2006-09-23, 12:04   Link #107
Dauthi
Searching for the Cure
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington
I also think Itatchi tends to be the brains, and is why he was paired with kisame. It seems that Akatsuki do have reasons for pairing people together in some cases, as we see from the newest fight. To think that Itatchi/Kisame could defeat the entire leaf village militia is rediculous. Even Oro states going against an organized military of a village is suicide, when an entire clan of the most elite blood line do it.

In my opinion, Itatchi knew that soon the entire village would be upon them, but kisame just wanted to fight, period.This isnt DBZ, one guy with a higher power level cant defeat an entire army, they will eventually get stabbed in the back while concentrating on another enemy, or something to that extent. They are both very strong, but this anime tends to be REALISTIC in its values in combat, which is why it places such high values on strategy.

Im not sure about how much battle experience Kisame has, but Jiraiya is one of the 3 legendary ninjas of the most powerful village. Now if kisame feels that Itatchi is stronger than himself, and Itatchi is currently weakend, the best decision is to run, because their trump card is currently incompacitated. It wasn't the best move for Itatchi to use MS against Kakashi, but he wanted to prove a point to kakashi, that he was a moron to believe his imitation blood line could stand up to the real thing. And with Sasuke, i think he noticed Naruto had tamed him, and he needed to set back down the dark path, so using the MS on him was something he had to do.
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