Could Naruto learn Hakkeshou kaiten?

[sayde]

^^indeed.
Thanks for typing such an informative opinion on the matter raikage. Seriously.

[Sabaku Kyu]

That was a really thorough report by raikage. I'm starting to think I could learn Kaiten..

[sayde]

lmao. word.

[Yellow Flash]

Mastery of the Juuken (Gentle fist) is the pride of the Hyuuga!

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by raikage

...Wonderful.

Firstly, what is Kaiten?
Kaiten is a technique in which a set amount of chakra is expelled simultaneously from every tenketsu in the body, coupled with a spin.
Can anyone (well, not anyone, but can non-Hyuuga) learn how to do it? I say yes, though for most people it is so impractical that it's not worth the time.

*tries to think of an appropriate analogy*
Let's take, say, two people who want to build a computer system.
One person has experience dismantling and reassembling VCR's, assembling home stereo systems, and has installed HD's in his computer before.
Person #2, well...they've pressed the power button before.

I would think most people would agree that in general, Person #1 would have an easier time than Person #2.
In fact, some forumgoers might discourage Person #2 from even attempting to build a computer on his own, even though it's still quite possible. Why is this?

It's because Person #1 can draw on his experience of working with electronics, where Person #2 would have to build his knowledge base almost from scratch.

At this point, I'm going to add spoiler tags to try and break up this post into easily-digestable chunks.

Spoiler:

The first break in knowledge comes from the tenketsu. Hyuuga learn where they are on the human body -- they can see them on a daily basis.
Chances are, Joe Shinobi out of the Academy doesn't know very much about them. After all, why would anyone teach them? You can't see them, you can't manipulate them; the knowledge itself is functionally useless to you because you can't do anything with it. He might know they exist, but most likely does not know where they all are.
And, based on the Hakke: Rokujuuyonshou attack, we know there's at least 64 of them.
And thanks to a pic Dauthi posted earlier, we have a clue as to where some of them are:

Spoiler:

So the first gap of knowledge to overcome is knowing where all the tenketsu are, something the Hyuuga already train for and can see.

Spoiler:

Now that you've memorized the tenketsus (in itself no small feat, since to your eyes they are invisible) the next step is to learn how to expel chakra out of every one of them.
Ninja train in how to externalize chakra from their hands and feet and mouth, but when's the last time they've externalized out of their right shoulder? Their knee?
It requires something they've never done at all before. The Hyuuga, at the very least, are used to expending a set amount of chakra out of individual fingertips (the basics of Jyuuken) as opposed to a general area like a hand or foot (walking on water). From that point, it's a matter of learning how to force chakra out of every tenketsu at the same time.

Spoiler:

The spin. This is, surprisingly, probably the hardest thing for a non-Hyuuga to replicate and use tactically.
A Byakugan allows you to see all everything you simultaneously and so you wouldn't get dizzy, as opposed to a normal person who would get dizzy after spinning around at a high RPM.

Kaiten builds upon the foundations of Jyuuken (absolute chakra control and tenketsus) and so a non-Hyuuga would need to study Jyuuken for months -- a style he would never be able to use very effectively -- for one move. To a Hyuuga, it's the next martial-arts move in the set.
If you can already jump and throw a crescent kick, then a jumping spin-kick is just an extension of what you already know.
If you're a heavyweight boxer (remain standing, only throwing punches), then is it really worth it for you to learn the jumping spin-kick? Or would your time be better spent working on your hand speed/strength/feints?

Two things scare me about this post:
- The amount of time I spent thinking about this and writing it -- I'm not really sure how much time it is, since I've been running back and forth and only being able to write a sentence or two at any given time.
- (an offshoot of the above point) This is only like ⅔ of what I had floating around in my head, but I've forgotten the rest of it.

This is a good rephrase in some ways of what ive been posting, and some extra too.

The first thing that popped into my mind is, if you can see 360 degrees, (in reality not in the narutoverse) would you get more dizzy, or less? I mean, your point of view would still be spinning, i would assume, although this is all in theory lol. But if you could see completely 360 degrees, you could see more, and it would all be spinning also.

Aparently though, in the narutoverse it has little affect on the byakugen, as neji never has had any negative effects from spinning too much.

If you sit down and rationalize the jutsu (which you cant do with other bloodline jutsu's) you can actually see that it could in fact be used by other ninjas, just impractical.

Thanks for the post!

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

This is a good rephrase in some ways of what ive been posting, and some extra too.

The first thing that popped into my mind is, if you can see 360 degrees, (in reality not in the narutoverse) would you get more dizzy, or less? I mean, your point of view would still be spinning, i would assume, although this is all in theory lol. But if you could see completely 360 degrees, you could see more, and it would all be spinning also.

Aparently though, in the narutoverse it has little affect on the byakugen, as neji never has had any negative effects from spinning too much.

If you sit down and rationalize the jutsu (which you cant do with other bloodline jutsu's) you can actually see that it could in fact be used by other ninjas, just impractical.

Thanks for the post!

Yes, but with the byakugan Neji appears to see things in slow motion such as in his battle with Kidomaru. So perhaps even though he's spinning in a high speed, to him he's actually spinning slowly.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

I would like to see this in the data book, i couldnt find the data book containing specific info on him.

I think you just overlooked a simple information : as all jutsu requiring special condition(s) to be performed like Kekkai Genkai, Bijuu, summon contract, surgical alteration etc. the Kaiten is ranked (-).
Ie it can't be learned unless specific condition(s), here the Byakugan.

Raikage, long time you didn't write a post like that!
Let's explain why the Kaiten can't be used by anybody to celebrate that ^^

Theorically you're right the principles of the Jyuken could be learned by anyone except it would be completely useless as a non Hyuga user wouldn't be able to target the inner coils and thus would be unable to make any damage.
Just roughly flowing some chakra into someone's body won't do anything.

But the Kaiten isn't like the regular Jyuken which make no direct use of the Tenketsu : regular Ninja and even regular Hyuga doesn't use the Tenketsu. They are able to build and drive chakra toward certain points of the body which is already very difficult even for Jounin. Their chakra is passing by them like any jutsu but there is no direct control on them.
To make one of my weird comparison, you don't control your veins because you can cut your wrist. You can just draw blood passing by them.

Neji's case is different, thanks to his higher Byakugan and ability, Neji has mastered the Jyuken and is able to make a direct use his Tenketsu. In the case of the Kaiten to emit simultaneously from all 361 Tenketsu a large and balanced amount of chakra to create a barrier. This is something most Hyuga couldn't do simply because they have no control over their Tenketsu, They could just built a mass of chakra all over their body and try somehow to expel it all at once which would most probably produce a messy result.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think you just overlooked a simple information : as all jutsu requiring special condition(s) to be performed like Kekkai Genkai, Bijuu, summon contract, surgical alteration etc. the Kaiten is ranked (-).
Ie it can't be learned unless specific condition(s), here the Byakugan.

Raikage, long time you didn't write a post like that!
Let's explain why the Kaiten can't be used by anybody to celebrate that ^^

Theorically you're right the principles of the Jyuken could be learned by anyone except it would be completely useless as a non Hyuga user wouldn't be able to target the inner coils and thus would be unable to make any damage.
Just roughly flowing some chakra into someone's body won't do anything.

But the Kaiten isn't like the regular Jyuken which make no direct use of the Tenketsu : regular Ninja and even regular Hyuga doesn't use the Tenketsu. They are able to build and drive chakra toward certain points of the body which is already very difficult even for Jounin. Their chakra is passing by them like any jutsu but there is no direct control on them.
To make one of my weird comparison, you don't control your veins because you can cut your wrist. You can just draw blood passing by them.

Neji's case is different, thanks to his higher Byakugan and ability, Neji has mastered the Jyuken and is able to make a direct use his Tenketsu. In the case of the Kaiten to emit simultaneously from all 361 Tenketsu a large and balanced amount of chakra to create a barrier. This is something most Hyuga couldn't do simply because they have no control over their Tenketsu, They could just built a mass of chakra all over their body and try somehow to expel it all at once which would most probably produce a messy result.

This sounds like a lot of speculation on your behalf. Ive gone over every inch of the manga on explainations on neji's bloodline. This could be from a data book, but i would be more interested in seeing it rather than being told about it.

Your definition is also pretty vague and hard to see what you are getting at. All ninja's use their tenketsu to use jutsu, that much i know for sure, thats why when neji seals them, you can no longer use any jutsu.

[Yellow Flash]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

Your definition is also pretty vague and hard to see what you are getting at. All ninja's use their tenketsu to use jutsu, that much i know for sure, thats why when neji seals them, you can no longer use any jutsu.

................

Originally Posted by Hunter

Their chakra is passing by them like any jutsu but there is no direct control on them.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

They could just built a mass of chakra all over their body and try somehow to expel it all at once which would most probably produce a messy result.

Is this something like what Naruto usually do, boosting chakra all over his body with no control at all? If that is the case (if Naruto can do that), I guess, most of the ninjas should be capable of doing at least that. Again in that case, as long as a person can control the amount of chakra that exits their body, theoretically, that person can be able to do Kaiten.

[Gage]

I doubt many ninja could pull it off since they just don't have the chakra reserves for it. That is probably why only the Hyuuga can pull it off. Since they know where each of their tenketsu are, they are able to focus the chakra perfectly so it comes out of each one equally. Others would probably wind up with gaps or one side being stronger than the other. The Hyuuga also extensivly train on very fine chakra control, the other half of the equasion.

I'm sure Ninja that do have either large chakra reserves and/or very fine control could pull it off with ALOT of training, but the Hyuuga's ability and training gives them an edge there.

[Yellow Flash]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Is this something like what Naruto usually do, boosting chakra all over his body with no control at all? If that is the case (if Naruto can do that), I guess, most of the ninjas should be capable of doing at least that. Again in that case, as long as a person can control the amount of chakra that exits their body, theoretically, that person can be able to do Kaiten.

Remember that Kaiten has a different purpose.

Chakra leaking out the entire body is usually meant to prepare to fight and use jutsu.

If it is released through all tenketsu, it creates a barrier which block all attacks.
It's true that all ninja have tenketsu, so theretically yes it is possible in a sense.
But the fact remains that we are told only the Hyuuga are capable of doing this.

Could Naruto learn Hakkeshou kaiten?

No.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Raikage, long time you didn't write a post like that!
Let's explain why the Kaiten can't be used by anybody to celebrate that ^^

Haven't felt like I needed to write a post like this in a long time.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Theorically you're right the principles of the Jyuken could be learned by anyone except it would be completely useless as a non Hyuga user wouldn't be able to target the inner coils and thus would be unable to make any damage.
Just roughly flowing some chakra into someone's body won't do anything.

But the Kaiten isn't like the regular Jyuken which make no direct use of the Tenketsu : regular Ninja and even regular Hyuga doesn't use the Tenketsu. They are able to build and drive chakra toward certain points of the body which is already very difficult even for Jounin. Their chakra is passing by them like any jutsu but there is no direct control on them.
To make one of my weird comparison, you don't control your veins because you can cut your wrist. You can just draw blood passing by them.

For Neji's 64 Hands technique, he does use the tenketsu in his individual fingers -- he uses precise chakra control to form small needles with which to attack his opponent's chakra holes and plug them up/short them out.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Neji's case is different, thanks to his higher Byakugan and ability, Neji has mastered the Jyuken and is able to make a direct use his Tenketsu. In the case of the Kaiten to emit simultaneously from all 361 Tenketsu a large and balanced amount of chakra to create a barrier. This is something most Hyuga couldn't do simply because they have no control over their Tenketsu, They could just built a mass of chakra all over their body and try somehow to expel it all at once which would most probably produce a messy result.

Here I think we're argung almost the same point, just along different lines.

We're both saying that the Byakugan is, in and of itself not going to get you to learn Kaiten on your own.

Where we differ is that I believe a very small number of non-Hyuuga (and probably even only a few Hyuuga) can learn Kaiten. There is nothing about the steps that makes it specifically require Byakugan, though having it and learning Jyuuken, then 64 Hands takes you a lot closer to learning it than if you had to start from scratch.

You know, I just realized it's probably been years since we went back and forth with nerdy discussions like this; back when Ebony and Shadamehr were still here, when Monir posted but couldn't add much because he doesn't read the manga, when Vicious and DF were on. Good times.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Rurik

This might get interesting

I thought as well after reading the recent posts on this thread, but alas! Hunter is in such glee seeing Rai's posting a long one after some time, the geezer doesn't even come out swinging his spoon.

By the way, if we do a follow up on Rai's analogy about buliding a PC and learning Kaiten, I think I've a pretty good shot at learing the Kaiten since I build my own desktop PC. Including me and Sabaku Ryu, Rai now has inspired two posters who think they can learn the Kaiten. We are so neat!

P.S. If I recall correctly, I think it was Rurik who was one of the first ones to voice the idea that someone else other than the Hyuga clan can learn Kaiten. A lot of us made fun of him then.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by monir

I thought as well after reading the recent posts on this thread, but alas! Hunter is in such glee seeing Rai's posting a long one after some time, the geezer doesn't even come out swinging his spoon.

Good. He'd probably eat me alive.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by monir

I thought as well after reading the recent posts on this thread, but alas! Hunter is in such glee seeing Rai's posting a long one after some time, the geezer doesn't even come out swinging his spoon.

Seen Hunter post intervals, I could say He has been very busy…

P.S. If I recall correctly, I think it was Rurik who was one of the first ones to voice the idea that someone else other than the Hyuga clan can learn Kaiten. A lot of us made fun of him then.

Well…I been forgetting stuff lately ….(I think I know why… )..So I can’t recall it was me you guys were making fun of… -But maybe it was me, because I always belived that people could do something like Kaiten…

The thing ion how I see it, is maybe along the lines as what Raikage and Hunter were explaining.

It seems, from Ten-Ten Explanation, that releasing chakra just from the Palm of the Hand is very difficult, So we must assume that releasing it trough the entire body is an feet almost impossible to accomplish. But not impossible.

I wanted to use an example: In basketball when people begin to shoot the hoop, the begin to do it close to the perimeter, once they have mastered this, they expand their range of the perimeter of Shooting to a point where they are doing 3 points Shooting. because Humans are always looking for ways to improve themselves.

Or maybe In Martial arts, When you begin, To do Tae Kwon Do , You begin with the simplest of the Kicks, the ap chagi, once you have the grasp of this Kick, You advance to a more complex kick, the yop chagi, and so on and on.

With the Kaiten should be the same, The Hyugas takes X amaount of Years Practicing the Jyuken, once they have mastered this, I guess what they want to do is try and expand they use of Jyuken, meaning the part of the body were they can release Chakra.

I will say this could be how the Kaiten was developed, and how Neeji could develop it also without been teached how to do it. One thing is that It seems that doing Kaiten is not that easy either, and the Person who can reach this, was not just because he mastered the Jyuken. Not to mention I think the Hyugas should have certain types of training that help the person who are learning how to do Kaiten release Chakra from the entire body.

So, This is why I think for a non Hyuga it is possible, in theory, to learn Kaiten, or something like that, but it should be unpractical because they would need to learn Jyuken to then try and learn Kaiten, whereas it could be easier for the Shinoby to just develop by Himself any other type of Absolute Defense.

Of course, I have been also playing with the Idea, that maybe the Huygas have 2 Bloodline abilities:

A) Byakugan.

B)Their Body Anatomy is made so they can release Chakra from they body easier than any other person can.

If this is correct, then My Belief is wrong.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Of course, I have been also playing with the Idea, that maybe the Huygas have 2 Bloodline abilities:

A) Byakugan.

B)Their Body Anatomy is made so they can release Chakra from they body easier than any other person can.

If this is correct, then My Belief is wrong.

Ability B would definately end this debate right here and now. But unfortunately, that's the most important reason why theorectically, one could argue this in the first place...which is why I brought it up. lol

I kind of wish it turned out to be true though. It'd definately explain a lot and give something more to the Byakugan bloodline limit.

Anyways, it was kind of interesting to read all these different examples some of you guys came up with. They've definately helped put some of these things into perspective.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by sayde

Ability B would definately end this debate right here and now. But unfortunately, that's the most important reason why theorectically, one could argue this in the first place...which is why I brought it up. lol

I kind of wish it turned out to be true though. It'd definately explain a lot and give something more to the Byakugan bloodline limit.

Anyways, it was kind of interesting to read all these different examples some of you guys came up with. They've definately helped put some of these things into perspective.

Yeah, it would end the debate right away. However there isnt a single indication in the manga stating otherwise, so untill then i guess it will always be up for debate.

IMO i think it would be lame. Its an eye bloodline, all their abilities should incorporate their eye. It just would be kinda stupid that "hey we have this eye ability, oh and also for some reason we can use chakra better too!". Little too convenient, if you know what i mean.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

IMO i think it would be lame. Its an eye bloodline, all their abilities should incorporate their eye. It just would be kinda stupid that "hey we have this eye ability, oh and also for some reason we can use chakra better too!". Little too convenient, if you know what i mean.

point taken.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by sayde

point taken.

Forgot also to add that its likely we will not ever get enough proof to say either way. Sure, a data book might say its a bloodline jutsu, but possibly for the fact you will never see anyone but hyuuga's use it in the manga/anime. They probably wouldnt ramble on speculating like us =p